Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[araz]

Do PAF have aim120B ? I know we have aim120C5 apx 500

498 to be precise

 

[Scorpiooo]

498 to be precise

2 in place of fantastic tea

 

[Thorough Pro]

You think they never used any in training exercises?

498 to be precise

 

[araz]

You think they never used any in training exercises?

They have training rounds for that.
A

 

[Talon]

You think they never used any in training exercises?

There's a *simulation* option in the jet so no need to fire the actual weapon

 

[Thorough Pro]

I know about the training rounds, but I am talking about the real missile firing in exercises, just like the PA and PN do in their offensive and defensive exercise regimes

They have training rounds for that.
A

 

[SQ8]

This is called a "ladder" stack. It's used to confuse radars into showing less aircrafts, than those present.

@SQ8 & @Raider 21 Can tell us more, including how new AESA radars respond to similar maneuvers.

The easiest way to express it for a layman is to think of it in terms of refresh rates for that picture. A normal Pulse doppler Radar has to cycle its beam back and forth to create an image and may miss aircraft stacked on top of each interpreting them as one target as they move.
The closest analogy is like old TVs with their beams creating the image at 60HZ. This would cause some motions to get missed and details skipped.

An AESA however is capable of scanning a massive space at extremely fast rates so its not missing the returns from these targets due to the delay of the beam. Infact, the individual modules in a AESA are radars in their own right. So much like a LED TV refreshing at 120Hz, the picture is smoother and crisper - not missing the details of formations stacked.

Now here is another kicker, there was a way to identify aircraft using radar returns known as NCTR(Non cooperative target recognition) that was looking deeper into the waveforms of the returns to identify what aircraft is being tracked and which is where systems like Rafale’s spectra came in to thwart it. With AESA however, all the fancy gimmicks trying to fool traditional radars become useless and it come down to a matter of how much power the Radar has against how much the jammer has.

I know about the training rounds, but I am talking about the real missile firing in exercises, just like the PA and PN do in their offensive and defensive exercise regimes

They paid over $200k per missile and 2 live fire demonstrations have happened in combat conditions to verify they work and pilots are generally proficient in its use. I’d say that is proof enough not to waste missiles in training shots.

 

[CriticalThought]

The easiest way to express it for a layman is to think of it in terms of refresh rates for that picture. A normal Pulse doppler Radar has to cycle its beam back and forth to create an image and may miss aircraft stacked on top of each interpreting them as one target as they move.
The closest analogy is like old TVs with their beams creating the image at 60HZ. This would cause some motions to get missed and details skipped.

An AESA however is capable of scanning a massive space at extremely fast rates so its not missing the returns from these targets due to the delay of the beam. Infact, the individual modules in a AESA are radars in their own right. So much like a LED TV refreshing at 120Hz, the picture is smoother and crisper - not missing the details of formations stacked.

Now here is another kicker, there was a way to identify aircraft using radar returns known as NCTR(Non cooperative target recognition) that was looking deeper into the waveforms of the returns to identify what aircraft is being tracked and which is where systems like Rafale’s spectra came in to thwart it. With AESA however, all the fancy gimmicks trying to fool traditional radars become useless and it come down to a matter of how much power the Radar has against how much the jammer has.

They paid over $200k per missile and 2 live fire demonstrations have happened in combat conditions to verify they work and pilots are generally proficient in its use. I’d say that is proof enough not to waste missiles in training shots.

Depending on the angle from the radar, aircraft can hide behind others, thus giving the perception of fewer aircraft than there really are. It would need knowledge of the exact location of the radars, and a trajectory computed by software which would need to be followed by auto-pilot. A good application of optimization/machine learning/AI. And an example of the capabilities of 5th gen aircraft. Now, the aircraft presenting themselves as targets can be loyal wingmen...

 

[The Eagle]

I know about the training rounds, but I am talking about the real missile firing in exercises, just like the PA and PN do in their offensive and defensive exercise regimes

The real missile firing you are referring to, happens during test & validation of new weapons only. PN or PA does so as & when a newly produced weapon has to be tested. Weapons in active duty arsenal are supposed to fired only when there are Abhis at receiving end.

 

[CriticalThought]

The real missile firing you are referring to, happens during test & validation of new weapons only. PN or PA does so as & when a newly produced weapon has to be tested. Weapons in active duty arsenal are supposed to fired only when there are Abhis at receiving end.

From a pure quality control point of view, if you have 100 weapons in storage for 10 years, you really can't say anything about their efficacy until and unless you take out a few and actually fire them. This is statistical quality control - you can't fire all weapons so you try to determine the quality through statistical sampling. You don't want to find out when Abhi is on the other side that your weapons no longer work.

 

[Blacklight]

From a pure quality control point of view, if you have 100 weapons in storage for 10 years, you really can't say anything about their efficacy until and unless you take out a few and actually fire them. This is statistical quality control - you can't fire all weapons so you try to determine the quality through statistical sampling. You don't want to find out when Abhi is on the other side that your weapons no longer work.

1) Diagnostic kits?
2) Inspection is carried out after specified time intervals, just like aircrafts go through their A,B,C,D checks.
3) Some parts, irrespective of their condition, after "X" yrs in storage, are either re-furbished, or replaced.

Depending on the angle from the radar, aircraft can hide behind others, thus giving the perception of fewer aircraft than there really are. It would need knowledge of the exact location of the radars, and a trajectory computed by software which would need to be followed by auto-pilot. A good application of optimization/machine learning/AI. And an example of the capabilities of 5th gen aircraft. Now, the aircraft presenting themselves as targets can be loyal wingmen...

Theoretically possible only on paper, given today's AESA tech, highly improbable.
Besides, what is missed by ground based radars, will be detected by AWACS/ CAP's via their Radar/ FLIR / IRST.

 

[Enigma SIG]

From a pure quality control point of view, if you have 100 weapons in storage for 10 years, you really can't say anything about their efficacy until and unless you take out a few and actually fire them. This is statistical quality control - you can't fire all weapons so you try to determine the quality through statistical sampling. You don't want to find out when Abhi is on the other side that your weapons no longer work.

 

[Blacklight]

With AESA however, all the fancy gimmicks trying to fool traditional radars become useless and it come down to a matter of how much power the Radar has against how much the jammer has.

Thank You Brother, for the confirmation and helpful insight. Really appreciated!

Now could you tell us, how a modern day AESA radar reacts to jamming?

 

[araz]

Depending on the angle from the radar, aircraft can hide behind others, thus giving the perception of fewer aircraft than there really are. It would need knowledge of the exact location of the radars, and a trajectory computed by software which would need to be followed by auto-pilot. A good application of optimization/machine learning/AI. And an example of the capabilities of 5th gen aircraft. Now, the aircraft presenting themselves as targets can be loyal wingmen...

We have had an own goal in a training session between 2 mirages. One accidentally fired a missile at another. Fortunately the pilot ejected unharmed. You dont want a repeat of that in an exercise. Leave that to our neighbours. Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing.
A

 

[Talon]

We have had an own goal in a training session between 2 mirages. One accidentally fired a missile at another. Fortunately the pilot ejected unharmed. You dont want a repeat of that in an exercise. Leave that to our neighbours. Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing.
A

A mistake that Pakistani aviation geeks will keep quoting till eternity..