Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[PanzerKiel]

I dont know much about the Angola war I would be interested in the Air-Air component if you could shadow a little for me that would be greatly appreciated. Its sad to see Rhodesia begone like that was the attempt same for south africa.

On a side note...
Maybe not always in a real battle, but the Mirages have certainly taken over the F16 as far as the thread is concerned.

 

[Nomad40]

On a side note...
Maybe not always in a real battle, but the Mirages have certainly taken over the F16 as far as the thread is concerned.

It can be but not the majority times.

 

[MastanKhan]

Correct - shoot/scoot. We did the same in Angola. M3's were just purely for that purpose vs Mig23 there was a serious challenge; only F1AZ could take them on 1:1.
Looking back; F1s' should have been bought lock stock barrel.

Hi,

You have the F1 in the form of the JF17's----a couple of 3 1/2 decades too late but it is here now---.

 

[Raider 21]

There are no mediocre's in flying ---Either you know what you are doing to a high standard or you dont, Obviously with time and Experience one can be superior than the other----It all boils down to team work, situational awareness and aggression.

I beg to differ on that first line, but that category that I go with is that the margin line is very slim between below average to bold aggressive. Some are natural, most require hard work and often hit a peak at a certain stage. Yet they are of some quality at least to be flying Vipers.

 

[Windjammer]

Hi,

You have the F1 in the form of the JF17's----a couple of 3 1/2 decades too late but it is here now---.

You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.

 

[Windjammer]

JF-17s Have Gradually Taken Over F-16s For CAPs Duities in Several Sectors.

 

[Nomad40]

@MastanKhan you Bucko you are doing the same mistakes as them pajeets and I am loving it.

 

[MastanKhan]

You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.

Hi,

They were---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.

When the PAF was exploring Project Sabre II, Dassault offered to set-up the Mirage F-1 line in Pakistan with a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.

Not sure if the PAF could've gotten new BVRAAMs from France, but it could've secured the R-Darter via South Africa (alongside H-2/H-4 and MUPSOW).

Basically, we'd have BVR and SOW in the 1990s, before Kargil.

And if the US still opts to sanction us over our nuclear program, we could've worked with South Africa to integrate the RD-33 to the F-1 and use a 'Super F-1' as an early 4th gen fighter in the 2000s and 2010s.

With that early exposure to aircraft design and integration, we may have started AZM in 1997, and have a FGFA prototype right now (after going through 20 years of R&D work, tech demonstrator work, etc).

The problem with us Pakistanis is that we daydream about how to excel individually, but not about nation-building, elevating our people, etc.

 

[GriffinsRule]

When the PAF was exploring Project Sabre II, Dassault offered to set-up the Mirage F-1 line in Pakistan with a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.

Not sure if the PAF could've gotten new BVRAAMs from France, but it could've secured the R-Darter via South Africa (alongside H-2/H-4 and MUPSOW).

Basically, we'd have BVR and SOW in the 1990s, before Kargil.

And if the US still opts to sanction us over our nuclear program, we could've worked with South Africa to integrate the RD-33 to the F-1 and use a 'Super F-1' as an early 4th gen fighter in the 2000s and 2010s.

With that early exposure to aircraft design and integration, we may have started AZM in 1997, and have a FGFA prototype right now (after going through 20 years of R&D work, tech demonstrator work, etc).

The problem with us Pakistanis is that we daydream about how to excel individually, but not about nation-building, elevating our people, etc.

Not sure if we would have started AZM in the 90s just because of building F-1s. More likey there would not be a JF-17 and we would still be building new F-1s now, a plane with no fbw and a turbojet engine.
F-1 was a good fighter but was late in coming and had to compete against new 4th gen aircraft like the F-16 which was better in every respect, same as M2000.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Not sure if we would have started AZM in the 90s just because of building F-1s. More likey there would not be a JF-17 and we would still be building new F-1s now, a plane with no fbw and a turbojet engine.
F-1 was a good fighter but was late in coming and had to compete against new 4th gen aircraft like the F-16 which was better in every respect, same as M2000.

Well, according to ACM Sohail Aman, the Saab 2000 repair work was a big reason why we decided to try AZM.

The way I saw it, a Mirage F-1 engine refit project likely would have required setting up a design and testing capacity to fully explore. Because we would've had the production line, Denel would've done the work in Pakistan and, in the process, given us a basis and interest for aircraft design by the late 1990s.

On that basis, we might have wanted to try our hand on aircraft design and development in 1999 instead of 2017.

It's not a wild leap. The South Africans decided to make a jump from early 3rd gen Mirages to the 4+ gen Carver in the 1980s. It didn't deliver because South Africa didn't have the long-term threat issue of India or the funding commitment we have for AZM. Heck, we might have well taken over the work of the Carver as a starting point.

The possibility that we could've been working with the Project Carver and Cheetah engineers at that point (via a RD-93-ed 'Super F-1'), we may have worked on our own FBW tech, composites tech, etc, through the 2000s and 2010s.

As for the F-1 itself. The airframe is old, but Morocco is actually rocking JF-17 Block-2 level radar, avionics and weapons (incl. compatibility with MICA).

So, it may be under-powered (though maybe not if we swap the engine -- which the PAF did ask for, by the way, with the F-1), but more than serviceable. And a mainstay fleet of F-1s wouldn't preclude the possibility of a few M2K-5s or Rafales for the 'edge' capability either.

Ultimately, we canned the F-1 idea (and Sabre II -- which was to give us a similar basis to be frank) not because of the inherent limitations of those designs, but because we threw our chips behind the F-16.

 

[Windjammer]

When the PAF was exploring Project Sabre II, Dassault offered to set-up the Mirage F-1 line in Pakistan with a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.

Not sure if the PAF could've gotten new BVRAAMs from France, but it could've secured the R-Darter via South Africa (alongside H-2/H-4 and MUPSOW).

Basically, we'd have BVR and SOW in the 1990s, before Kargil.

And if the US still opts to sanction us over our nuclear program, we could've worked with South Africa to integrate the RD-33 to the F-1 and use a 'Super F-1' as an early 4th gen fighter in the 2000s and 2010s.

With that early exposure to aircraft design and integration, we may have started AZM in 1997, and have a FGFA prototype right now (after going through 20 years of R&D work, tech demonstrator work, etc).

The problem with us Pakistanis is that we daydream about how to excel individually, but not about nation-building, elevating our people, etc.

I was aware of the ambitious and much publicised efforts to set up Mirage-3 production facilities in Pakistan in 70s, this was considered feasible as it would cater for many Arab Mirage operators during that era.
However same set up for Mirage F-1 is news for me.....not sure how was this possible after the processing plant debacle.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I was aware of the ambitious and much publicised efforts to set up Mirage-3 production facilities in Pakistan in 70s, this was considered feasible as it would cater for many Arab Mirage operators during that era.
However same set up for Mirage F-1 is news for me.....not sure how was this possible after the processing plant debacle.

Because it's unrelated. One was an issue re: nuclear weapons at a time when the US was unwilling to overlook it, the other is for a previous gen underpowered fighter at a time when the US was tolerating defence ties with Pakistan.

 

[ziaulislam]

You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.

and assuming that french would have allowed us to upgrade further in early 2000s when it jump ship and went into indian camp..it wouldnt have..it would have been a disaster

PAF opted for something reliable the f7ps and then the super 7/jf17(which was in works in 1990s)

pakistan gdp was just 50b$ it did have money to go around and throw every where, we did have money for f16 or mirage 2000 our front role fighter

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

and assuming that french would have allowed us to upgrade further in early 2000s when it jump ship and went into indian camp..it wouldnt have..it would have been a disaster

PAF opted for something reliable the f7ps and then the super 7/jf17(which was in works in 1990s)

pakistan gdp was just 50b$ it did have money to go around and throw every where, we did have money for f16 or mirage 2000 our front role fighter

Well, when the French offered the F-1, they were done with that fighter.

So, their interest in what we do or don't do with it was about as much as the Mirage III/5. The only difference is that by taking on a production capability, we may have been able to design and implement the electronics upgrade on our own.

Otherwise, I don't think they would've stopped us from BVR-ing the F-1s, just as they didn't (or couldn't) prevent us fitting the Mirage III/5 with H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad.