Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Arsalan]

have we got back some planes with the MLU, now what are we going to get in the turkish upgrades!!

 

[araz]

have we got back some planes with the MLU, now what are we going to get in the turkish upgrades!!

Brother.
The MLUs are not due back till 2011, from USA. We have a contract in the making wwith the Turks to MLU the rest of our fleet but nothing more concrete has come out of it in the press. The upgrades are well described and you need to look up the previous posting and threads in this regards.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Super Falcon]

what is mlu

 

[Super Falcon]

is mlu is better or aesa

 

[Muradk]

is mlu is better or aesa

MLU is a extended life span of the aircraft Well I found some simple words from F-16.net.
When the F-16 entered service in 1979, it was expected that the aircraft would be replaced by a successor in 1999. Due to several reasons, both economical and political, the F-16 will not be replaced by a successor (which is not yet available right now) and will not be phased-out until 2010. In order to maintain the same level of operational capabilities and operational effectiveness of existing aircraft over the next ten to twenty years in this world of ever increasing technology, an extensive modernization program was developed, that later became known as the Mid-Life Update or MLU.
and AESA ( Active Electronically Scanned Array ) is a Radar.

 

[Arsalan]

is mlu is better or aesa

sir they are different things,

the MLU stands for Mid Life Upgrade

and AESA is a radar,

for PAF MLU is the mean of extending there fleet life, we will be able to operate our F16 for another decade or so after the MLU!

 

[Arsalan]

Brother.
The MLUs are not due back till 2011, from USA. We have a contract in the making wwith the Turks to MLU the rest of our fleet but nothing more concrete has come out of it in the press. The upgrades are well described and you need to look up the previous posting and threads in this regards.
WaSalam
Araz

thankyou sir for your informative post.

sir can you also kindly tell us that whether the MLU and the turkish upgrades are to be done on same aircraft, i mean whether all the planes will receive both kind of upgrades or are the turkish upgrades just a back up in case we fail to have the US MLU.

wheater all planes get both these upgrades??

i will be very thankful

 

[mean_bird]

is mlu is better or aesa

MLU (mid-life upgrade) is a program to introduce advance techonology into older F-16s. That is converting F-16 to blk 40 (MLU-3) or blk 50 (MLU-4).

Falcon Star upgrade is another upgrade but that has to do with structural upgrade i.e. replace parts that have lived their lives, and service others so that the life of the fighter is increased.


AESA ( Advanced Electronically Scanned Array) is a new radar technology that is better than existing radars (called pulse doppler radars).

 

[mean_bird]

thankyou sir for your informative post.

sir can you also kindly tell us that whether the MLU and the turkish upgrades are to be done on same aircraft, i mean whether all the planes will receive both kind of upgrades or are the turkish upgrades just a back up in case we fail to have the US MLU.

wheater all planes get both these upgrades??

i will be very thankful

I think you are confusing two things...MLU and star falcon upgrade that I explained in my previous post (see above). The existing PAF F-16s will recieve both upgrades , structural (star falcon upgrade) and MLU (technology upgrade) to extend their lives and bring them up to blk 50 standard respectively.

The first 4 are going through these in the US. The rest may be done in Turkey or at PAF from kits bought from US with assistance from Turkey.

 

[Manticore]

i heard paf f16s were getting mlu3? [blk40]

 

[mean_bird]

i heard paf f16s were getting mlu3? [blk40]

Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries.

Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.

Let me try to explain

MLU-3 in made up of the following.

Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
Integration of anti radiation missile capability
Integration of target designator system
Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
Integration of the Link-16 system
Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
Introduction of NVG compatible helmets

Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,

M4 tape contains in addition to above:

Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
Integration of SNIPER targeting pods


Here's what PAF is getting:
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;

SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
Reconnaissance pod capability;

Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.


So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen).

Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard


Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf

 

[IceCold]

Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries.

Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.

Let me try to explain

MLU-3 in made up of the following.

Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
Integration of anti radiation missile capability
Integration of target designator system
Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
Integration of the Link-16 system
Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
Introduction of NVG compatible helmets

Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,

M4 tape contains in addition to above:

Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
Integration of SNIPER targeting pods


Here's what PAF is getting:
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;

SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
Reconnaissance pod capability;

Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.


So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen).

Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard


Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf

So still no DRFM. How badly will that effect our offensive capabilities since you cannot counter enemy frequency there and then and have to go back to the base for an analysis and for all we know by the time we return enemy may be detecting us with different frequencies.
Is this capability absent in the block-52 as well? If yes i think some one mentioned about a possible Chinese counter part to this, but considering how tough the americans have become in maintaining controls over their foreign sales equipment specially to countries like Pakistan, how likely it is for us to integrate the two without upsetting the yanks.

 

[mean_bird]

So still no DRFM. How badly will that effect our offensive capabilities since you cannot counter enemy frequency there and then and have to go back to the base for an analysis and for all we know by the time we return enemy may be detecting us with different frequencies.
Is this capability absent in the block-52 as well? If yes i think some one mentioned about a possible Chinese counter part to this, but considering how tough the americans have become in maintaining controls over their foreign sales equipment specially to countries like Pakistan, how likely it is for us to integrate the two without upsetting the yanks.

What do you mean by 'still'? Its the one and same deal that happened around 2006 ( I think?). Nothing have changed in it and no new deal made. And it was a combined deal of the STAR upgrade, MLU, 18 New F-16s, and weapons and ammunition. So yes, neither will have DRFM.

I don't think we can add something on the US fighters. An EW works with the radar and unless you have source code of the radars, there isn't much you can do. Even Israel were denied similar use of their equipments for the F-35 so possibilities are limited.

The EW suite is made up of several components like

- Threat warning systems, provides threat radar detection, identification, and warning, as well as control and coordination of the countermeasure responses available
- Jammers, which provide protection to the aircraft. Addition of DRFM enhances the capabilities of these jammers. The absence of DRFM doesnt mean the jammers are useless but less advanced. You can pre-define a range of frequency and effective radiation power.

- Threat Adaptive Countermeasures Dispenser System (TACDS) , provides an integrated,reprogrammable, dependable, computer-controlled capability for dispensing expendable decoys (chaff,
flares, and others).

Now what exactly the FC-20 or the JF-17 will have, I have no idea of how advanced the Chinese are in this area or what PAF plans are in acquiring such technology from others. My guess is by the time the FC-20 comes, China will have advanced in their technologies. The JF-17 EW suite is not yet operational so its too early to say what it is. Wait till 2010-11 for a clearer picture of what exactly JF-17 is going to be. Besides, such features can always be updated at a later stage.

 

[IceCold]

What do you mean by 'still'? Its the one and same deal that happened around 2006 ( I think?). Nothing have changed in it and no new deal made. And it was a combined deal of the STAR upgrade, MLU, 18 New F-16s, and weapons and ammunition. So yes, neither will have DRFM.

I don't think we can add something on the US fighters. An EW works with the radar and unless you have source code of the radars, there isn't much you can do. Even Israel were denied similar use of their equipments for the F-35 so possibilities are limited.

The EW suite is made up of several components like

- Threat warning systems, provides threat radar detection, identification, and warning, as well as control and coordination of the countermeasure responses available
- Jammers, which provide protection to the aircraft. Addition of DRFM enhances the capabilities of these jammers. The absence of DRFM doesnt mean the jammers are useless but less advanced. You can pre-define a range of frequency and effective radiation power.

- Threat Adaptive Countermeasures Dispenser System (TACDS) , provides an integrated,reprogrammable, dependable, computer-controlled capability for dispensing expendable decoys (chaff,
flares, and others).

Now what exactly the FC-20 or the JF-17 will have, I have no idea of how advanced the Chinese are in this area or what PAF plans are in acquiring such technology from others. My guess is by the time the FC-20 comes, China will have advanced in their technologies. The JF-17 EW suite is not yet operational so its too early to say what it is. Wait till 2010-11 for a clearer picture of what exactly JF-17 is going to be. Besides, such features can always be updated at a later stage.

Well i used the word still because some one on another forum(Defence Talk) i think it was Sabre though not sure said that alot of the stuff comes through back channel in order to avoid congress back lash. In that context i used the word still. Anyways won't that seriously handicap our F-16s in offensive role.
I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[saiko]

DRFM is a superb jamming technique as it does not rely on brute power to get the job done, but if I had to choose between DRFM or traditional noise jamming I'd choose the latter. DRFM can not mask your intentions, it can only make it harder to kill you. A powerful standoff jammer like the twice-cancelled B-52 SOJ project are important for strike missions. Even though the US thinks the B2 and F-22 make something like the B-52 SOJ obsolete, that's only true right now. In 10 years, they're going to wish they didn't cancel the project because only the B-2 will have a reasonable stealth shelf life moving forward.