Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deal

[python-000]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387426087588741122

Maybe we will see the attack helicopter combo in PAA of Z-10ME, T-129 with Ukrain or Russian engine & Mi-35 & old cobras for FC...

 

[FuturePAF]

Maybe we will see the attack helicopter combo in PAA of Z-10ME, T-129 with Ukrain or Russian engine & Mi-35 & old cobras for FC...

Don’t forget the Ecureuil Helicopters being used as light attack helicopters. Probably a stop gap measure best suited to keep costs low and offer more units to spread around the FC bases. A decent COIN platform.

Pakistan getting 05 Ecureuil Helicopters

Can anyone share pics ofEcureuil helicopters??

defence.pk

 

[python-000]

Don’t forget the Ecureuil Helicopters being used as light attack helicopters. Probably a stop gap measure best suited to keep costs low and offer more units to spread around the FC bases. A decent COIN platform.

Pakistan getting 05 Ecureuil Helicopters

Can anyone share pics ofEcureuil helicopters??

defence.pk

My bro, i was talking about medium to heavy attack helicopters not light attack helicopters...

 

[GriffinsRule]

Fact of the matter is, there is no conflict on the horizon with India hence the army can wait it out. If things were so desperate, they would have shelled out the money for AH-1Zs regardless of the issues surrounding modes of payment, and bought more Mi-35s besides the token 4.

That tells me they are not in a rush to acquire attack helos gives out budget priorities as well. And it is very likely that Turk-US relations will patch up sooner than later.

But I definitely dont want to see Z-10s in service just for the sake of having an attack chopper in service that is far below the requirements set, given that these are expensive purchases that will stick with you for the next 4 decades.

Pakistan should be negotiating with the US on the Cobras regardless of what happens to ATAK. And as I had previously posted too, Italy is also working on the next version of A-129 which could easily fulfill PA requirements.

 

[FuturePAF]

My bro, i was talking about medium to heavy attack helicopters not light attack helicopters...

I was referencing the “old Cobra for FC” part. Your right, it’s not fit for the conventional fight, but actually a decent platform for the COIN role against a small to modest enemy force. Smaller Precision guided weapons like the Turkish laser guided rockets and 30 km range guide weapons maybe enough to take on miscreant vehicles or troops in the field.

 

[khansaheeb]

What constitutes large numbers?

thinking maybe 4 squadrons at 60 gunships

or maybe a dream number of 90 or 6 squadrons

if we have 6 squadrons we could arm a squadron each to the two strike Cores and have 4 independent squadrons for defence and force projection missions.

If we get panzer air defence as well, it would make up an awesome off rice defensive punch for strike cores

thoughts

kv

Let's not get too carried away. Pakistan would be better of developing tactical drones than putting all the eggs in one basket.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Unfortunately , if the T-90’s roll from the east then Z-10s are going to have more of an impact than 1970s cobras armed with SALCOS missiles.
If anything, they can stall the desert front quite a bit.

Pakistan has managed this ZERO quality with some hard work - unfortunately they are saddled with this quite often. Interestingly, it is Pakistan who usually provides the feedback that goes into improving quality for this manufacturing country but that is kept by them for domestic consumption while still sending us a little less quality.

IIRC, the Chinese improved the sand filtration of the Z-10ME, likely in response to the PAA's feedback. Sure, it might not be the best high-altitude attack helicopter, but for desert and plains operations, the Z-10ME should be more than serviceable. AVIC is also promoting a miniature ALCM with it.

That said, if the goal is to solidify our Sindh / Punjab fronts, then we should look at working with the Turks on their ATAK-2. It's a heavyweight akin to the Mi-28 and AH-64, but with the Mi-171's engines (VK2500).

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deals
By Dominic Perry
26 February 2020

Pakistan looks set to turn to China for its attack helicopter replacement needs after US embargoes halted sales of rival Bell and Turkish Aerospace products.

Islamabad had in 2015 ordered 12 Bell AH-1Zs under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process and then followed that in 2018 with a deal for 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion.

Source: Shimin Gu/Wikimedia Commons

But the AH-1Z sale has been on hold since US President Donald Trump cut security funding to Pakistan, and export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the T129 has led to the suspension of that contract.

This impasse, and a pressing need to retire its fleet of 48 Bell AH-1Fs, is now pushing Islamabad to consider alternatives, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, commander, army aviation, told Defence IQ’s International Military Helicopter conference in London on 26 February.

“We are looking at other options. One of them is in China in the shape of the new attack helicopter they have created called the Z-10ME,” he says. “In case the first two options do not materialise this third option will be considered.”

Pakistan had previously evaluated an earlier version of the CAIC Z-10, but Ahmed says the latest iteration has improved weapons and systems.

Source: Turkish Aerospace

Ahmed is extremely doubtful that the AH-1Z deal can be resurrected, and although Turkish Aerospace is developing an indigenous replacement engine for the T129, he is not confident that this will be ready in time.

In fact, Pakistan has set a deadline of July this year for a final decision, Ahmed says.

The relative urgency is driven by India’s capability increases, as New Delhi grows its fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apaches.

“The Cobras are no match for the Apaches that the Indians are getting,” he says. “We definitely want to match that [capability].”

https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article

When is the Pakistani going to learn, they don't have much choice today.

Fortunately for them China latest Z-10 attack helicopters are in fact more than a match for its Western counterparts.

Even the much cheaper Z-19 will fulfilled Pakistan requirement.

 

[SQ8]

IIRC, the Chinese improved the sand filtration of the Z-10ME, likely in response to the PAA's feedback. Sure, it might not be the best high-altitude attack helicopter, but for desert and plains operations, the Z-10ME should be more than serviceable. AVIC is also promoting a miniature ALCM with it.

That said, if the goal is to solidify our Sindh / Punjab fronts, then we should look at working with the Turks on their ATAK-2. It's a heavyweight akin to the Mi-28 and AH-64, but with the Mi-171's engines (VK2500).

View attachment 738747

Timeframe is what matters - it is very likely they could turn it around within 5 years given the airframe is sorted out. Having the common Engine will make a massive logistical difference for Pakistan and it may be that the Turks have already dangled this to PAA.

 

[Rank]

Fact of the matter is, there is no conflict on the horizon with India hence the army can wait it out. If things were so desperate, they would have shelled out the money for AH-1Zs regardless of the issues surrounding modes of payment, and bought more Mi-35s besides the token 4.

That tells me they are not in a rush to acquire attack helos gives out budget priorities as well. And it is very likely that Turk-US relations will patch up sooner than later.

But I definitely don't want to see Z-10s in service just for the sake of having an attack chopper in service that is far below the requirements set, given that these are expensive purchases that will stick with you for the next 4 decades.

Pakistan should be negotiating with the US on the Cobras regardless of what happens to ATAK. And as I had previously posted too, Italy is also working on the next version of A-129 which could easily fulfill PA requirements.

More delays directly impact the power of purchase. Things are directly proportional. It is important to understand the mechanics of the weapons, defense needs, and the overall geo situation.

The dollar is continuously fluctuating because of our financial and economic conditions. For instance, If the price of each unit was somewhere around $100 back in 2015, the price of the same heli could be somewhere around $300 in 2021. If we were thinking to buy 100 units in 2015, now we are only capable to buy just 50 units in 2021. If our economic growth was 5% in 2018, right now in COVID, our growth is just 1.5%. Things are correlating, the stagnant or fluctuations in the economic condition directly impact your defense requirements.

The things are not simple as we see. We have to calculate everything as a whole. There are a lot of things moving and evolving around in a large spectrum. You can't wait for long in order to fulfill the gap. That will literally affect the defense needs and you probably ended it up with nothing or to compromise your defense by getting the cheap products from the market. And it's evident!

We have witnessed and experienced this in the past. After 60 years of relation with the U.S, we have just got 70 F16s. Half of them were MLUs as compared to all other countries that had established relations with the U.S in the same period. They have got roughly 150 - 200+ Fighters and still getting as per their requirements. Just view things from the broader perspective. Between 1987 - 2003 (almost 16 years) our Airwing was literally lacking in BVR, AESA, a number of fighter jets, and so on.

At this point, we should go with Russians OR re-negotiate with Americans on Cobras. Getting Z10 would be disastrous.........

 

[Scorpiooo]

Z10 failed miserably during the high altitude tests

we should not compromise quality

we should hold out for T129 whats few more years where we have waited 3 decades maybe even 4

Z10ME engine and air intake were modified to handle it

Maybe we will see the attack helicopter combo in PAA of Z-10ME, T-129 with Ukrain or Russian engine & Mi-35 & old cobras for FC...

Most likely, different attack helos for different region and role

 

[xbat]

That said, if the goal is to solidify our Sindh / Punjab fronts, then we should look at working with the Turks on their ATAK-2. It's a heavyweight akin to the Mi-28 and AH-64, but with the Mi-171's engines (VK2500).

it is probably for prototypes and may be for first batches, 3000shp TEI Turbo shaft is in development

 

[Scorpiooo]

IIRC, the Chinese improved the sand filtration of the Z-10ME, likely in response to the PAA's feedback. Sure, it might not be the best high-altitude attack helicopter, but for desert and plains operations, the Z-10ME should be more than serviceable. AVIC is also promoting a miniature ALCM with it.

That said, if the goal is to solidify our Sindh / Punjab fronts, then we should look at working with the Turks on their ATAK-2. It's a heavyweight akin to the Mi-28 and AH-64, but with the Mi-171's engines (VK2500).

View attachment 738747

Exactly if Z10ME fulfill 80 percent of our region with it, they can have them in limited numbers, for high altitude until we dont have turkish stuff MI 35 can do work around

 

[Shabi1]

Attack helicopters are losing their importance as UCAVs are getting more capable. Not only do they give more loiter time they are also cheaper to operate.

PA probably has decided to give priority to UCAVs and reduce reliance on attack helicopters which is why this acquisition is being allowed to get delayed.

 

[The Eagle]

Pakistan is committed to both deals in particular manners and given the capability as well as the requirement by the operating forces. I really hope that such media houses shouldn't take advantage of situation between the two countries & fuel it with unwanted headline as such.

Pakistan Army is fully committed to T129 ATAK (who knows it may comes in heavy & more modern). AH-1z fate is unknown given the relations & rapid change in geopolitics but there are always some areas where the needful is done in out of blue manners.