Pakistan conducts successful test launches of 4 x Nasr missiles 05 Nov, 2013

[cyphercide]

Ok , just tell them then not to cross the border and risk the entire Indian population then . If you hadn't cared , wouldn't you have crossed the borders ? Four times and counting !

Again. why is that the Pakistanis transfer the moral weight of an all out nuclear assault back to us? It seems as if Pakistan is counting on our good nature and adherence to Dharma in order to leave you folks alone.

 

[Secur]

Again. why is that Pakistanis transfer the moral weight of an all out nuclear assault back to us? It seems as if Pakistan is counting on our good nature and adherence to Dharma in order to leave you folks alone.

Morals in this business ? Is it the prevailing myth to rationalize or justify the " success of Pakistan's nuclear doctrine " ? Why did you even mobilize your forces then , in the first place ? There's no dharma involved in world politics nor are there any morals . Though this is nothing new and I know the prevailing mindsets in India to provide a reason for the four times failure to attack Pakistan despite all the war cries from within .

 

[cyphercide]

Morals in this business ? Is it the prevailing myth to rationalize or justify the " success of Pakistan's nuclear doctrine " ? Why did you even mobilize your forces then , in the first place ? There's no dharma involved in world politics nor are there any morals . Though this is nothing new and I know the prevailing mindsets in India to provide a reason for the four times failure to attack Pakistan despite all the war cries from within .

Yes , we are morally involved and invested in "this business."

We are not Amreeikis who don't give a sh*t as to who dies in the end.

This is why Pakistan is the ONLY MUSLIM nuclear armed nation, any other Islamist nation would have committed suicide immediately.

 

[Secur]

@cyphercide OK . But Pakistan is still a nuclear armed nation because of the success of its "deterrence" , there's nothing Islamic about it .

 

[cyphercide]

@cyphercide OK . But Pakistan is still a nuclear armed nation because of the success of its "deterrence" , there's nothing Islamic about it .

You still don't get it, do you?

Tell me something, why have a short ranged nuke as a supposed warning if your nation was so successful at deterrence? Talking about deterrence, how come it came to no use during Kargil?

 

[MilSpec]

That is an ideal scenario . Unfortunately for you , Pakistan has addressed survivability of its nuclear arsenal in such a scenario and enhanced its 2nd strike capability with all terrain TEL's and more new nuclear storages whose location isn't known . If I were on PC , I would have provided you with a link from American think tank confirming that part . Hence , simply put , the neutralization of Pakistan's all offensive capabilities which can pose a threat to Indian population center isn't possible . Even " inflicting unacceptable damage " doesn't necessarily mean what you have said . .

Really TEL's are your second strike!! As I said massive punitive retailiations entails network and command sites, the idea is to neutralize command stations for and negate all launch codes and command structure, I doubt that TEL Nukes are preprogrammed and armed sitting to fly on base commanders order, if thats the case then least of your worries is India.

Well our doctrine doesn't say anything except that Islamabad will not hesitate to use nuclear weapons - both tactical and strategic to deter/destroy the adversary if any of its " not clearly defined " thresholds are crossed . Since it would have been crossed , when we launch a TNW , it wouldn't be risking anything further but rather hoping for deterring further military misadventure by the enemy or the " Samson Option " meaning if we do not exist , so shouldn't the enemy .

Back to threshold argument, Pakistani army has a very striking streak of self preservation, It showed the same with one of the largest unilateral surrenders in the history of warfare. Compunded by the fact that everytime pakistani looses, the Army gets stronger, 65,71,99 all points to the same. If push came to shove and all thresholds were crossed, based on historical trend, Pakistani army would prefer to call for surrender and retake power for another couple of decades and the cycle will continue instead of obliterating itself.

Even if I were to believe that , there are other things besides territorial ambitions which India may want to carry out , the Op.Brasstacks back in '89 was a plan for a fourth war with Pakistan as admitted by Indian General but called off after the nuclear threat by Islamabad . The Op.Parakram afterwards saw mobilization and subsequent backing off Indian troops who were again ready to invade Pakistan but went back , after the stakes became too high . After Mumbai attacks , New Delhi sufficed with mere warnings of punitive action but once again nothing materialized . Mate , you are now looking for morality in this business when there aren't any .

General Sunderji maintained that: "This was, is and always has been a training exercise. I can't answer why there have been misperceptions about it in some quarters." IIts a shame that pakistan made a hue and cry of an exercise that they were duly informed of. And please do enlighten me of the other things?


That sums up op brasstacks, the rest that you mentioned like parakram and mumbai attacks, again for the nth time points to India's reluctance to attack pakistan. Pakistan is a formidable force, and will amount to insurmountable losses on a poor country like India, and thus is pointless and has no gains whatsoever. Fighting Pakistan for India is like brocolli for kids, we dont want it, but you keep insisting you cant....

 

[Secur]

You still don't get it, do you?

Tell me something, why have a short ranged nuke as a supposed warning if your nation was so successful at deterrence? Talking about deterrence, how come it came to no use during Kargil?

Nah , I get it just fine . Discussed to death before . Why should the deterrence not evolve further? You tell me that since your forces were ordered not to cross the Line Of Control let alone the International border .

 

[SQ8]

"Yes, I nuked and vaporized advancing Indian divisions(operating in my own territory) but is India willing to snuff out every man, woman and child in Pakistan in retaliation?"

Exactly. It is that moral buck that is being used as the deterrence. However , to add to that

is India willing to snuff out every man, woman and child in Pakistan in retaliation? and the same fate for its own people?

 

[Secur]

Really TEL's are your second strike!! As I said massive punitive retailiations entails network and command sites, the idea is to neutralize command stations for and negate all launch codes and command structure, I doubt that TEL Nukes are preprogrammed and armed sitting to fly on base commanders order, if thats the case then least of your worries is India.


Back to threshold argument, Pakistani army has a very striking streak of self preservation, It showed the same with one of the largest unilateral surrenders in the history of warfare. Compunded by the fact that everytime pakistani looses, the Army gets stronger, 65,71,99 all points to the same. If push came to shove and all thresholds were crossed, based on historical trend, Pakistani army would prefer to call for surrender and retake power for another couple of decades and the cycle will continue instead of obliterating itself.



General Sunderji maintained that: "This was, is and always has been a training exercise. I can't answer why there have been misperceptions about it in some quarters." IIts a shame that pakistan made a hue and cry of an exercise that they were duly informed of. And please do enlighten me of the other things?


That sums up op brasstacks, the rest that you mentioned like parakram and mumbai attacks, again for the nth time points to India's reluctance to attack pakistan. Pakistan is a formidable force, and will amount to insurmountable losses on a poor country like India, and thus is pointless and has no gains whatsoever. Fighting Pakistan for India is like brocolli for kids, we dont want it, but you keep insisting you cant....

I know what a " decapitation " strike means , I wasn't making things up myself when I said that indeed all terrain TELs are currently the " second strike capability " of Pakistan . The thing is to gather the intelligence on all the command and control centers first , something which even the Yanks have expressed their " failure " in terming it " as growing and diverse " . As for the " level " on which decisions will be made , that is something that is available in open source intelligence but from what we gather , the authority will trickle down to that level in such case .

Well , its the usual old " Pakistan Army is evil " paragraph more than anything about " thresholds " . I will not comment on it since the outcomes of previous wars are beyond the scope of the thread , since there's nothing nuclear about them , even then I would like to point that two of them are called " stalemate " by the neutral sources , a big achievement against an adversary which is almost five times our size and has massive conventional power . If your Govt and Army would have been so confident about Islamabad's response , trust me , the Generals itching to cross the border back during Op.Parakram would have done so , considering the atmosphere and the opposition's pressure in India back then , mate .

Or there was something more to that than what India maintained after literally bringing its " entire military " on the International borders to test Sundarji's doctrine and implement if the conditions were " suitable " ?

Brasstacks was no military exercise. It was a plan to build up a situation for a fourth war with Pakistan. And, what is even more shocking is that the Prime Minister, Mr. Rajiv Gandhi, was not aware of these plans.

—Lieutenant General P.N. Hoon, Commander Western Command

 

[cyphercide]

Nah , I get it just fine . Discussed to death before . Why should the deterrence not evolve further? You tell me that since your forces were ordered not to cross the Line Of Control let alone the International border .

You do? What exactly constitutes as deterrence and how has it evolved as to guarantee Pakistan's existence?


And where is this "discussed to death" debate that you keep talking about?

 

[Secur]

What is dtterence

You do? What exactly constitutes as deterrence and how has it evolved as to guarantee Pakistan's existence?


And where is this "discussed to death" that you keep talking about?

First spell it correctly . Then , browse the thread and look before asking me , the same questions again and again trying to prove the " Indian angel " . 

Exactly. It is that moral buck that is being used as the deterrence. However , to add to that

Well , its all " Dharma " and moral high ground , because of which India doesn't attack Pakistan and you know the funny thing , its a lot common on their forums

 

[cyphercide]

Exactly. It is that moral buck that is being used as the deterrence. However , to add to that

Changing the dimensions of the question doesn't necessarily yield a different answer or shift responsibility to a different entity.

 

[cyphercide]

First spell it correctly . Then , browse the thread and look before asking me , the same questions again and again trying to prove the " Indian angel " . 

Nah. You are too "valuable" to be followed by me.

Carry on!!!

 

[SQ8]

Really TEL's are your second strike!! As I said massive punitive retailiations entails network and command sites, the idea is to neutralize command stations for and negate all launch codes and command structure, I doubt that TEL Nukes are preprogrammed and armed sitting to fly on base commanders order, if thats the case then least of your worries is India..

You are supposing that the TEL's will have no warning what so ever. That is whole crux of the point given earlier. If the Nasr does fly.. it also means that the rest of the arsenal is sitting at 5 minutes response time as well. Unlike the Russians and the Americans.. both parties have fairly good ability to tell when the strategic assets are about to be used. A decapitation strike entails that the other side be unable to react in time. But when that reaction time is shortened to less than 10 minutes for both..then the "footballs" of each nation are already there in terms of full strike.
Moreover, this supposition sits on the basis that the CnC networks of both nations are exposed to a decapitation strike. When the reality for both is much different.

Point being.. THERE IS NO WINNER here. As much as you would like to consider yourself as one.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

i understand your frustation and anger towards india but there is hardli you could do anything about you tried to bleed us dry thru a 1000 cuts but lost half your population and nation for it , gilgit and balistan are "girvi" with china for 50 years and your "freind not master" is killing, humiliating your ghairat and killing soldiers& people in your own back yard while your "strategick assets"are blowing your people in cities , markets and hwat not at an unchekked and periodick intervells and your still thinkin of punishing india and making fun of us ...lage raho

Rather as a RSS Swami we can understand yr grieve on our Success.