Pakistan Civil Aviation | Information & News.

[Edevelop]

The 787 isn't very big. Furthermore, PIA need aircraft NOW. The earliest PIA could get a 787 would be around 2016.

Compared to what and on what basis?

Data from ANA reported that the 787 surpasses the 20% fuel burn reduction promised by Boeing as compared to the 767. On the Tokyo-Frankfurt route the fuel savings was 21%.[161] As part of this report the passenger experience was also rated. Nine in ten passengers said it surpassed their expectations and a quarter said they would go out of their way to fly the 787 again. Air quality and cabin pressure met or exceeded expectations for nine in ten passengers, and 92% of passengers reported that the cabin ambience was as good or better than they expected. Higher humidity levels in the cabin met or exceeded expectations for four in five passengers. Four in ten said headroom was better than expected.

Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[imiakhtar]

Data from ANA reported that the 787 surpasses the 20% fuel burn reduction promised by Boeing as compared to the 767. On the Tokyo-Frankfurt route the fuel savings was 21%.[161] As part of this report the passenger experience was also rated. Nine in ten passengers said it surpassed their expectations and a quarter said they would go out of their way to fly the 787 again. Air quality and cabin pressure met or exceeded expectations for nine in ten passengers, and 92% of passengers reported that the cabin ambience was as good or better than they expected. Higher humidity levels in the cabin met or exceeded expectations for four in five passengers. Four in ten said headroom was better than expected.

Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was aware of the ANA experience as the airline industry is one I follow very closely.

However, first point of order is that PIA does not operate any 767s. Furthermore, that comparison would not be relevant vs the A310 in PIA's case as FRA-NRT is a 5000nm sector on which the fuel delta against the 767 would be greatest. If you were to compare the 787 to a310 on the domestic and middle-eastern routes, the fuel burn savings would probably be less than 5%.

Last but not least, although fuel is the largest cost facing airlines, you have to balance that with the cost of ownership. It could very well work out cheaper to own and operate a current generation B767 or A310 if they're paid off which PIA A310s are. For example, Lufthansa and British Airways have recently been refurbishing their B747-400s, some of which are approaching 20 years old. They could just as well order the 77W to replace them. However, the 77Ws high cost of ownership currently outweighs the savings they would achieve through 20% lower fuel burn and maintenance costs.*

* I will add this all depends on the price of jet fuel. Fuel prices are stable at the moment at around $3.3/gallon. Should they start to increase, airlines could very well reach another tipping point as they did around 2007 and start accelerating 747 retirements.

 

[Edevelop]

I was aware of the ANA experience as the airline industry is one I follow very closely.

However, first point of order is that PIA does not operate any 767s. Furthermore, that comparison would not be relevant vs the A310 in PIA's case as FRA-NRT is a 5000nm sector on which the fuel delta against the 767 would be greatest. If you were to compare the 787 to a310 on the domestic and middle-eastern routes, the fuel burn savings would probably be less than 5%.

Last but not least, although fuel is the largest cost facing airlines, you have to balance that with the cost of ownership. It could very well work out cheaper to own and operate a current generation B767 or A310 if they're paid off which PIA A310s are. For example, Lufthansa and British Airways have recently been refurbishing their B747-400s, some of which are approaching 20 years old. They could just as well order the 77W to replace them. However, the 77Ws high cost of ownership currently outweighs the savings they would achieve through 20% lower fuel burn and maintenance costs.*

* I will add this all depends on the price of jet fuel. Fuel prices are stable at the moment at around $3.3/gallon. Should they start to increase, airlines could very well reach another tipping point as they did around 2007 and start accelerating 747 retirements.

But in Pakistan's case, we have to import fuel. At this situation, the question of sustainability comes into play. If we start to face shortages or high price, then i guess at one stage people will try to make aircrafts run on CNG.

On a serious note, we are loosening our pockets to buy B777. The unit cost of B777 200ER (maximum of 225 seats) is $258 Million. In comparison, the B787-8 (maximum of 210 seats), costs $206 million. Looking at fuel efficiency plus cost to capacity ratio, i would go for Boeing 787-8

 

[imiakhtar]

But in Pakistan's case, we have to import fuel. At this situation, the question of sustainability comes into play. If we start to face shortages or high price, then i guess at one stage people will try to make aircrafts run on CNG.

On a serious note, we are loosening our pockets to buy B777. The unit cost of B777 200ER (maximum of 225 seats) is $258 Million. In comparison, the B787-8 (maximum of 210 seats), costs $206 million. Looking at fuel efficiency plus cost to capacity ratio, i would go for Boeing 787-8

If you look at jet fuel prices across the world, most airlines are paying around $3.3 give or take a few cents and that includes Emirates. The only country which offers substantially low cost fuel is Singapore. Emirates airlines and others have been known to fill their tanks up in Singapore because fuel is so cheap.

Also, the aircraft prices you've noted are list prices. The aircraft manufacturers never sell at list price and often offer discounts in the region of 40-60%. PIA received a 50% discount for the recent 77W order and is "paying" $150million/unit compared to unit list price of $300million.
Larger customers such as SouthWest Airlines in the US recently got a whopping 64% discount off their large 737 order.

I may as well give you the numbers for the A380 for comparison sake. Singapore, Qantas and Emirates have been paying in the region of $215-235million per aircraft.

 

[Edevelop]

If you look at jet fuel prices across the world, most airlines are paying around $3.3 give or take a few cents and that includes Emirates. The only country which offers substantially low cost fuel is Singapore. Emirates airlines and others have been known to fill their tanks up in Singapore because fuel is so cheap.

Also, the aircraft prices you've noted are list prices. The aircraft manufacturers never sell at list price and often offer discounts in the region of 40-60%. PIA received a 50% discount for the recent 77W order and is "paying" $150million/unit compared to unit list price of $300million.
Larger customers such as SouthWest Airlines in the US recently got a whopping 64% discount off their large 737 order.

I may as well give you the numbers for the A380 for comparison sake. Singapore, Qantas and Emirates have been paying in the region of $215-235million per aircraft.

Do you work for PIA or any other Airline because it seems like you know a lot...

 

[imiakhtar]

Do you work for PIA or any other Airline because it seems like you know a lot...

Nope.

I'm a plant biologist by training and a youth probation worker by trade.

I just happen to read a lot.

I recommend flightglobal.com (or if you're only interested in Pakistani aviation keep an eye on historyofpia.com)

FGlobal is probably the best and most reliable source of information. They have a freely accessible magazine archive going back 30 years or so.

(Archive, make that 100 years, access it here: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/index.html)

 

[Edevelop]

Nope.

I'm a plant biologist by training and a youth probation worker by trade.

I just happen to read a lot.

I recommend flightglobal.com (or if you're only interested in Pakistani aviation keep an eye on historyofpia.com)

FGlobal is probably the best and most reliable source of information. They have a freely accessible magazine archive going back 30 years or so.

Same here i'm not in that field. I'm studying medicine. Thanks. I usually read this stuff in my free time....

 

[Jango]

PIA plane lands safely after engine fire

KARACHI: A London-bound PIA flight PK-787, carrying airline officials and 167 passengers, landed safely at the Karachi airport as the engine of the plane caught fire soon after take off, eyewitness said.

Emergency was imposed at the airport, while Doctors, ambulances and fire tenders were also put on standby.

However, Director Airport Services Asif Bashir said that the engine of the plane didn’t catch fire, adding that it only experienced a technical fault.

Speaking to Geo News, a passenger on board the flight said he had not seen any fire however the plane did shake intensely after takeoff.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rumors that it had something to do with compressor. The engine might need to be replaced according to some news and the aircraft grounded for sometime.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-75984-PIA-planes-engine-catches-fire,-lands-safely

 

[razgriz19]

787 is 20% more fuel efficient....

yeah but on a 10+ hour long flight.
it won`t same much fuel on short to medium flights.

If boeing introduces a newer variant with shorter range and more passenger capacity, (like they did with 747s) only then its possible to save costs...

 

[razgriz19]

There's nothing corrupt about it. The tendering process and documents have been very clear and available for all to examine. They were opened at the end of October in the presence of TIP.

Further, if you've got an issue with the tendering process, perhaps you should lay the blame on your uniform heroes at the MoD who initiated the tender under the retd Air Marshall's direction.



As above, the tenders were opened at the end of October in Karachi. They will be evaluated and a decision made.



The tender is for lease. However, there could be flexibility built into the contract giving PIA the option to purchase the aircraft. One of PIA's B777s is leased from ILFC ( I believe it is AP-BHX) with an option for purchase. Recently, PIA cancelled it's lease of A310 aircraft and bought the aircraft from Airbus.

The B747s in PIAs fleet are in dire repair and are not used on long haul flights. They're used on domestic and middle-eastern sectors.

The ex-Saudi 747s that have been rumoured are just as old and tired. They wouldn't be much help.

You are correct in saying the fleet acquisition has been a mess of late. This is due to a number of factors such as poor financial state, a very powerful pilot and engineering union, multiple management changes, poor economy outlook and perhaps most importantly a poor track record in maintaining it's aircraft. You only need to look at the feeble response PIA received from it's initial aircraft tender: ex-jet airways 737s manufactured circa 2000-2001 and egyptair 777-200s with PW engines from 1998-2000. I don't blame PIA from scrapping that tender and organizing a new bid.

Furthermore the aircraft if leased will be dry-leased. PIA unions would not allow the aircraft to be wet leased as it would outsource their work to contractors.


Bollocks. You're wrong on all accounts. I can't recall a single aircraft/engine AD in recent years which has prompted an aircraft grounding.

There is no advantage in a small airline like PIA maintaining multiple engine fleets. That strategy pursued on the A310 and B747 has been a pain in the arse for PIA engineering and is extremely expensive. For example, it costs PIA over $2million to have a Rolls-ROyce RB211 transported out and overhauled. It would be even more expensive to try and do it in house. Some of the A310s are currently grounded due to a shortage of PW and GE engine parts (due to birdstrikes mainly!)

Realistically, PIA needs to think about closing down the engineering department and contract out engine and airframe maintenance. It would be much cheaper but would the all powerful engineering union and the PPP allow it? after all it would result in job losses.





What a silly statement. The A330 has outsold the Boeing 777 and Boeing 787 this year. In fact, the A330 would have been a much better fit for PIA over the 777. The only route which require the payload range of the 777 is Pakistan-canada and the pak-usa routes are extremely seasonal. Are two routes enough justification for an aircraft?



Very much so.



It's unfortunate that shaheen is having to increase it's domestic service to regional airports. It's one of the reasons why PIA has so many staff and is making very little money due to the regional routes.



And yet we're constantly told that Pakistan and PIA have the best pilots in the world. Let us hope the ATR fleet doesn't go the way of the Fokker F-50 fleet, many of which had fatal crashes or were written off.



Embraers may be cheaper however they can not be compared on a like for like basis with the Boeing or Airbus offerings as the latter offer much higher seat counts.



There is no pilot, training, parts or fleet commonality between airbus and ATR aircraft.

buddy i am an AME.
i know people who have worked on from f-18s to 747s to dc-10.
i dont know who you are or who you work for, but just think before you say something..

 

[Jango]

Realistically, PIA needs to think about closing down the engineering department and contract out engine and airframe maintenance. It would be much cheaper but would the all powerful engineering union and the PPP allow it? after all it would result in job losses.

Now that you have mentioned it, Emirates does this with their engines. The recent A380 engine problem in Australia, all expenses were borne by the engine manufacturer, Engine Alliance in this case. Emirates pays them a certain amount by hour of the engines they use.

 

[imiakhtar]

i dont know who you are or who you work for, but just think before you say something..

Which of my statements are incorrect? I can happily provide sources to reference my posts.

Now that you have mentioned it, Emirates does this with their engines. The recent A380 engine problem in Australia, all expenses were borne by the engine manufacturer, Engine Alliance in this case. Emirates pays them a certain amount by hour of the engines they use.

These agreements are known as power by the hour and are increasingly used by airlines.

Rolls-Royce makes most of it's money from the TotalCare packages it offers.

Off the top of my head, only the following airlines have dedicated engine MRO facilities for ALL their fleets:

Air France (major MRO provider for CFM and GE engines)

Lufthansa (joint venture with Rolls-Royce - designated MRO and TotalCare provider)
-LH Technik is the largest and most profitable airframe and engine MRO in the world

Singapore Airlines (joint venture with Rolls-Royce - designated MRO and TotalCare provider)

Cathay pacific used to maintain all it's engine but now the GE engine major maintenance is done in China via a GE MRO provider. It still does all RR in house however via HAESL.

Even Emirates doesn't have a complete MRO capability.

That's it. Three airlines that do all their own engine maintenance.

It would be silly for PIA to try and maintain an expensive MRO capability in house, especially when much of that expertise is with old engines which are on the way out.

 

[A.Rafay]

PIA to start Quetta-Kandahar flights from Dec 25

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) will start flights on Quetta-Kandhar route from December 25 this year.

This is the first time that a new destination has been initiated after a very long time in the history of airlines.

This was informed in a briefing made to Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf on measures taken by the new management of PIA to improve the operations of PIA at Prime Minister’s House on Wednesday.

The prime minister expressed the confidence that the new management of PIA shall bring about a turn around in the PIAC with a new passenger friendly face.

He directed that all the grey areas must be addressed and loopholes plugged and economic viability of PIAC ensured.

The prime minister further directed the PIA to consider feasibility of running more flights to Gilgit Baltistan and Chitral.

He was also informed by PIA Managing Director M Junaid Yunus that a business plan of the corporation is being firmed up with emphasis on facilitating the passenger so that business can be attracted. The business plan being worked out is being prepared with the objective of attaining a break even by 2013, he added. The present share of PIA in the international passenger business generating from Pakistan is 32 percent while PIA has a share of 71 percent in the domestic market, said PIAC managing director.

The prime minister was also informed that PIAC has earned operational profit in September and October this year, which sets the tone and pace of recovery.

The PIA managing director informed the prime minister that PIA is acquiring the first airbus which will join in February 2013 followed by four in March 2013 and three in second half of 2013. These narrow body aircrafts will be fuel efficient and lead to massive savings in fuel cost, which presently constitute 55 percent of total revenue earned by the airlines.

The prime minister was also told that a proposal is under consideration to outsource non-core operations to reduce employee to aircraft ratio, which is presently 485 employees per aircraft.

PIAC Chairman and Secretary Defence Lt General (r) Asif Yasin Malik said that the new management envisages an airline, which will neither be employee or government friendly but passenger friendly. The meeting was also attended by high officials of the government.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[imiakhtar]

Something for the aviation geeks, a radar feed on flightradar24.com has been established for Northern Pakistan.

A Korean Airlines A330 flight Seoul-Jeddah has just crossed the PURPA intersection at the PAK-China border.

Let's hope the feed lasts!

 

[Edevelop]

Improved facilities: Faisalabad Airport to be upgraded, says FCCI president – The Express Tribune

FAISALABAD:
The government has decided to upgrade the Faisalabad Airport, the Faisalabad Chamber of Commerce and Industry (FCCI) President Mian Zahid Aslam said on Thursday.
He said the governor had informed the Civil Aviation Authority managing director about this via a letter sent on November 27.
Talking to reporters, the FCCI president appreciated the governor’s directive and said that the upgrade was proposed by the FCCI during the governor’s recent visit to the FCCI.
He said that the matter would also be taken up with the prime minister during his visit to Faisalabad on December 8.