Pakistan Beware, They Are Cornering China!

[gpit]

Yes we have deaths and we are not hiding it from the world like you do in China. ATROCITIES? utter Bull ****, no one committed atrocities against them the problem lies in the fact that it is not economically viable for 65% of the population to be dependent on agriculture which forms below 20% of GDP, so herein comes reforms and special economic zones where slowly the popoulation is shifting from agraian way of living to industrialisation. This process can be a bit slow in Indian because here you cannot force people into accepting another way of life, here you ned to convine them and listen to them rather then round thme up on one fine morning and move them away like they do in your country and thet is called slavery albeit to a larger government and we Indians can die rather then being slaves.



Read this form and this thread in case you have the ability to do so, To begin with the thread itsel is a parnoid one, I see you and few others starting a flame wars rather then Indians, We dont give an aota as to where you were two decades ago and where you will be in the future, but if you start mud slinging be prepared to receive the same, we are no saints.



Hijack? No one here hijacks farmers and clears them out in name of industrialisation like you do, we have seen how in happens in Nandigram , westbengal where communists rule and No thanks we dont need it.

No one made the farmers hungry, the government helps them the best and its for them to move on, there is a limit to how much you can increase the income and statndard of living by tilling one acre of land, so today there is a choice between them and they are free to chose whether they still want to survive on subsistance farming or they want to embrace industrialisation.



Good for you you have donated, most of what you donated will be used during emergency relief operations in Africa and in cases of Tsunami, I worked in UNICEF and UNDP .

UNICEF and UNDP operations in India are not to bring in aid or relief, here they act as a non governmental or third party consultants to government helping them in their planning process. They select few districts all over India as a random sample and then implement models of governance, decntralisaton, health and then show them as a proof of study to government, influenceing them to follow policy. I have spoken in detain with Eimar Barr and Ceclio, Un is here to act as a consultant as they believe that India has enough resources to fight poverty and illiteracy, India will also achieve most of the MDG goals.

So next time you are arogant to think that your donation is gonna be for an Indian with a begging bowl I am sorry you are completey off the mark.



Yes maybe CCTV is so true and pious that we all need to watch it understand what the truth is, get down from your high horse!. If they are liars why watch them, The worl beileves them and that is what that matters, so you stop whinning yourself raher then asking me to do so.



I am neither naive nr ignorant as I am a free man and I am free to listen to opinions and learnings from all over the world.

China does not give two hots about Pakistan and that is the truth, they are using Pakistan just to keep Indians at bay, IF THEY ARE SO INTERWOVEN PRAY TELL ME THE ENORMOUS HELP GIVEN BY CHINA TO PAKISTAN DURING THEIR WARS. So stop living in wonderland.

Ipf,

Firstly, in many instances, your logic is twisted in more than one way. Actually it’s quite comical. For instance, why can’t a freeman be naïve or ignorant? How can you equals “free” with knowledge? Does that mean free India has no illiteracy? Truly zany, isn’t it?

Secondly, be self-confident. Your diffidence has been proclaimed itself fully by interpreting my words as “an Indian with a begging bowl”. Psychologically, extreme diffidence often leads to excessive arrogance. Read my words carefully.

Thirdly, it seems you know nothing about Mao and China after being obviously brain-washed by deceiving Indian/Western media. Facts show that without Mao, there would be no PRC today that causes such mixed feelings among various countries in the world: envies and jealousies from inane competitors, hails and praises from all-weather friends, hatreds and confusions from Western powers… Without Mao, China would still be tortured under foreign hoofs; Western powers wouldn’t have been left in awe via Korea War, Vietnam War; Nehru’s forward policy wouldn’t have defeated … Lives thus saved far surpass that caused by him.

Fourthly, you seem lack even the knowledge about events happened around your country, much less the significance of China’s role in Indo-Pakistan wars. Why don’t you read this biased-towards-India article How US and China worked together to save Pakistan in 1971, and US Department of State unclassified documents, volumes XI and XVII, to enrich yourself a little bit more on this aspect? Remember, Sun Tzu said, the best way to succumb your enemy is through no-war, or “Seizing the enemy without fighting is the most skillful”.

Finally, as a donor to UN, albeit a very insignificant one, I naturally want more than any other body that UN employees, who live on UN payment, to abide by UN rules and regulations.

Have a nice day.

 

[gpit]

Salim,

I said repeatedly that you know nearly nothing about China except Leap and Revolution. How could your view about China not be that of bigotry?

Your laughable ignorance falsely asserts that China borrowed capitalism from the West. Why can’t you treat your myopia by reading a little bit more, if you allow me to assume that you can read just more than Indian media? As a matter of fact, the Chinese have embraced capitalism since ancient time. Haven’t you heard of Silk Roads? Don’t you know that it is China that invented the first paper money of the world in the 9th century?

Can’t you be more serious and stop making fun of yourself in the face of the public? Please give us a break!

BTW, while I always believe current Chinese system is flawed and far from perfect, though working better than the other one for the moment, if you think for tea-gardeners to starve to death recently and for 40000 pregnant women to die ever year are proper results of a perfect system, then you are free to embrace it.

BTW again, am I commie or staying in Pakistan?

 

[gpit]

...
We are allowed the freedom of expression without being bundled off to a re-education labour camp.

...

True that not to re-education labour camp, but to the death road.

Mob Stones And Beats Politician To Death In India |Sky News|World News

"A politician has been stripped, stoned and beaten to death by a mob during a rally in western India.

Dynaneshwar Sathawane had been campaigning for council elections near Nagpur, in the state of Maharashtra, when about 150 people attacked..."

 

[Myth_buster_1]

True that not to re-education labour camp, but to the death road.

Mob Stones And Beats Politician To Death In India |Sky News|World News

"A politician has been stripped, stoned and beaten to death by a mob during a rally in western India.

Dynaneshwar Sathawane had been campaigning for council elections near Nagpur, in the state of Maharashtra, when about 150 people attacked..."

Simply incredible INDIA!

 

[Malang]

True that not to re-education labour camp, but to the death road.
Mob Stones And Beats Politician To Death In India |Sky News|World News
"A politician has been stripped, stoned and beaten to death by a mob during a rally in western India.
Dynaneshwar Sathawane had been campaigning for council elections near Nagpur, in the state of Maharashtra, when about 150 people attacked..."

is this thread about India? did anyone say India is an Utopia? was this act considered permissible by the courts? isn't this a crime ?
Gpit I suggest that you concentrate on defending China and not indulge in thread crapping ...
PS: Having fundamental freedoms, impartial judiciary and a right to elect one's govt's is one of the most basic rights of humans if you think Humans don't need the bare minimum then it is a matter of concern..
India as I have said continually on this forum in not a Utopia... and whatever you highlight is a crime that can happen anywhere and not because people are free unlike in some authoritarian regimes..

 

[Malang]

Salim,
I said repeatedly that you know nearly nothing about China except Leap and Revolution.

in context of current Chinese govt. psyche Leap and Revolution are important and not what used to take place during Qing, Ming dynastical eras etc.
I have not heard of people quoting what used to happen during Asoka's times to explain for eg India's foreign policy?

How could your view about China not be that of bigotry?

How could your views not be propaganda fed by Commie govt? or indeed you are an agent of Commie govt of China trying to defend Chicoms?

Your laughable ignorance falsely asserts that China borrowed capitalism from the West.

Capitalism/Secularism/Democracy are all Western ideas/beliefs and all those following them have adopted them from the west..

Why can’t you treat your myopia by reading a little bit more, if you allow me to assume that you can read just more than Indian media?

are you discrediting Indian media? and why is that when the whole world lauds it?

As a matter of fact, the Chinese have embraced capitalism since ancient time.

I beg to differ, Capitalism really arose in modern times and is a western idea/belied

Haven’t you heard of Silk Roads?

those were routes used by traders? How is it proof of Capitalism? It highlights the extent of trade taking place not form theoretical underpinnings of Capitalism.

Don’t you know that it is China that invented the first paper money of the world in the 9th century?

So?? it was just an evolution of barter system nothing suggests that it was due to capitalism?

Can’t you be more serious and stop making fun of yourself in the face of the public? Please give us a break!

:Mirror:

BTW, while I always believe current Chinese system is flawed and far from perfect, though working better than the other one

what is the other one?

for the moment, if you think for tea-gardeners to starve to death recently and for 40000 pregnant women to die ever year are proper results of a perfect system, then you are free to embrace it.

What you quote here is a lack of political will and not inefficiencies of democracy why don't you quote examples of Norway, Finland etc?
India is following Democracy, secularism but neither do they promise to make India an Utopian Land but yes it grants basic minimum rights... which are unavailable in Authoratarian regimes etc.

BTW again, am I commie or staying in Pakistan?

Couldn't be bothered.

 

[gpit]

Gpit, there are several reasons why democracy works best in India, and communism will not. …

Did I say democracy doesn’t work in India? In stead, I’m actually attempted to assume that that’s the best system to work in India.

Let me repeat 1000th times: I always believe current Chinese system is flawed and far from perfect, albeit somehow working for the moment.

In China, its the other way round. The people have no say in their affairs, but are told what to do and how to do it by a magistrate who is presumably more enlightened.

You are very ignorant of China. Sorry, but there is no merits in debating with you on this aspect before you read more about China.

…

You have lots of speculations that you are totally free to make.

However, you made one fundamental mistake here. The Chinese model is not to copy from West, but rather to learn from the “four little dragons”, Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore. This is not only because China can’t copy from the Westerns given the huge different in cultures and degree of development, but rather it is because the “dragons” are more similar in history, culture and society to those of China.

 

[Malang]

Ipf,
Firstly, in many instances, your logic is twisted in more than one way. Actually it’s quite comical. For instance, why can’t a freeman be naïve or ignorant? How can you equals “free” with knowledge? Does that mean free India has no illiteracy? Truly zany, isn’t it?

It gives you a freedom of choice.. I chose to be ignorant/aware, atheist/monotheist, criticise/praise govt etc. in commieland you can't chose you are forced..

Thirdly, it seems you know nothing about Mao and China after being obviously brain-washed by deceiving Indian/Western media.

and why would that be???? why is Indian/Western media brainwashing people? I think rather the case is Chinese are brainwashed(and China having a communist authoritarian regime makes it all though more believable) rather than people of other nations..

Facts show that without Mao, there would be no PRC today that causes such mixed feelings among various countries in the world: envies and jealousies from inane competitors, hails and praises from all-weather friends, hatreds and confusions from Western powers…

why is that?? you have just IMO described women.

Without Mao, China would still be tortured under foreign hoofs;

How can you say that? Taiwan under a democratic govt is holding out against the bigger Commie China isn't it??

Western powers wouldn’t have been left in awe via Korea War, Vietnam War; Nehru’s forward policy wouldn’t have defeated … Lives thus saved far surpass that caused by him.

please elaborate

Why don’t you read this biased-towards-India article How US and China worked together to save Pakistan in 1971,

this is a book excerpt I believe of Mr. Burr's book

Have a nice day.

chi chi...

 

[gpit]

...

Having fundamental freedoms, impartial judiciary and a right to elect one's govt's is one of the most basic rights of humans if you think Humans don't need the bare minimum then it is a matter of concern....

That can be seen as our fundamental difference.

While I never deny that various freedom is important, I must point out that the freedoms has hierarchies in the sense that some freedoms are more fundamentally important than, and serve as a supporting pillars to, other freedoms.

For instance, freedom to live is more important to other freedoms.

Simply perceivable, what’s the use of freedom to a dead body?

Of course, I never rule out a special case that people, for collective interest, can give up their lives.

When somebody hauling for freedom of express, but don’t feed their constituents enough for them to survive to speak, you know how ridiculous that is.

That’s probably why CPC prevails in China. First, CPC feed the people, let them be literate, then it opens up, …

 

[Malang]

Did I say democracy doesn’t work in India? In stead, I’m actually attempted to assume that that’s the best system to work in India.

IMO Democracy is the best/least worst system for all..

Let me repeat 1000th times: I always believe current Chinese system is flawed and far from perfect, albeit somehow working for the moment.

working for? What do you want to be a bird in a gilded cage or free?
Communism curtails basic human rights.. it to me is unethical.. basic Human rights are to be able to chose, to be free etc. which is bypassed in a communist regime...

You have lots of speculations that you are totally free to make.
However, you made one fundamental mistake here. The Chinese model is not to copy from West, but rather to learn from the “four little dragons”, Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore. This is not only because China can’t copy from the Westerns given the huge different in cultures and degree of development, but rather it is because the “dragons” are more similar in history, culture and society to those of China.

Please elaborate? are you suggesting Chinese follow the models of Singapore, SK, Japan and Taiwan? and which models will they be political, social, economic etc?

 

[Malang]

That can be seen as our fundamental difference.
While I never deny that various freedom is important, I must point out that the freedoms has hierarchies in the sense that some freedoms are more fundamentally important than, and serve as a supporting pillars to, other freedoms.

and who are you or me to decide the hierarchical model of freedom?
a holyman living in a forest for eg would rather like to have the freedom to carry out his spiritual activities rather than anything a else, a child would rather like the freedom to play all day long, an old man would like the freedom to die with dignity, a businessman would rather like freedom in carrying out his business, a scholar would like a freedom of information etc.

For instance, freedom to live is more important to other freedoms.
Simply perceivable, what’s the use of freedom to a dead body? Of course, I never rule out a special case that people, for collective interest, can give up their lives.

doesn't make sense really. freedom to live is a misnomer.
Humans and Animals have four very important similarities need for self-preservation and then comes the need for food, shelter and procreation in interchangeable order...

When somebody hauling for freedom of express, but don’t feed their constituents enough for them to survive to speak, you know how ridiculous that is.

Govt's duty is not only to feed but also allow expression..
even animals can manage to obtain food to eat so can humans but animals and humans differ in their ability to expression etc

That’s probably why CPC prevails in China. First, CPC feed the people, let them be literate, then it opens up, …

why do you think a hungry and uneducated person not be allowed to possess basic human freedom??
why do you think a literate person deserves more freedom than an illiterate person?
Does democracy guarantee people will not have food?
Wasn't CPC responsible for deaths due to starvation of millions?
WHy do you think other govts would not feed and educate their citizens?
why don't you think a govt which is elected by the people not take steps to feed people and educate them while not curtailing freedom?
what if God-forbid a calamity occurs in China and many more die of starvation or agri-fields are ruined or there is a shortage of food? then CPC will curtail even more rights?

 

[gpit]

in context of current Chinese govt. psyche Leap and Revolution are important and not what used to take place during Qing, Ming dynastical eras etc.
I have not heard of people quoting what used to happen during Asoka's times to explain for eg India's foreign policy?

May I have the liberty of quoting the following facts to reflect the psyche:

1) Chinese are happier than democratic Indian;
2) In recent 30+ years, no Chinese are died of starvation, whereas as recently as some years ago there is death-garden tragedy in Bharat;
3) UN HDI, China stays many positions ahead of India; and India slides two position down per most recent UN report?

How could your views not be propaganda fed by Commie govt? or indeed you are an agent of Commie govt of China trying to defend Chicoms?

One Indian friend boldly speculates that I’m either a “commie” or “stay in Pakistan”. And you now conjecture that I’m commie agent.

What a mentality!

Capitalism/Secularism/Democracy are all Western ideas/beliefs and all those following them have adopted them from the west..

Facetious.

are you discrediting Indian media? and why is that when the whole world lauds it?

It is Indian media that impairs themselves. Please follow the link for proof http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/10587-why-india-media-also-join-lying-chorus-tibet-riots.html
and applaud.

I beg to differ, Capitalism really arose in modern times and is a western idea/belied



those were routes used by traders? How is it proof of Capitalism? It highlights the extent of trade taking place not form theoretical underpinnings of Capitalism.



So?? it was just an evolution of barter system nothing suggests that it was due to capitalism?

Capitalism refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production are predominantly privately owned,[1][2] are operated for profit,[3] and in which investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are determined through the operation of a market economy. Capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you quote here is a lack of political will and not inefficiencies of democracy why don't you quote examples of Norway, Finland etc?

Exactly! Why the same “democracy” yields very different results in Norway/Finland than in Bharat?

India is following Democracy, secularism but neither do they promise to make India an Utopian Land but yes it grants basic minimum rights... which are unavailable in Authoratarian regimes etc.

You mean that China, an authoritarian country, now has more people die of hunger, more pregnant women die of negligence every year than India that grants minimum right? If so, please kindly provide data/facts to broaden our view.

 

[gpit]

It gives you a freedom of choice.. I chose to be ignorant/aware, atheist/monotheist, criticise/praise govt etc. in commieland you can't chose you are forced..

Thanks for refuting ipf for me!

and why would that be???? why is Indian/Western media brainwashing people?

Because “if we don’t hate what we are not, we can’t love what we are”, - per a famous Westerner.

why is that?? you have just IMO described women.

Well said! Many are jealous like women in these Olympic days.

How can you say that? Taiwan under a democratic govt is holding out against the bigger Commie China isn't it??

Since Taiwan is a US pawn, and is under US protection. I’m very surprised that you don’t even know this simple fact!

please elaborate

Please follow this for some glimpse http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/70148.pdf

this is a book excerpt I believe of Mr. Burr's book

Who cares as long as it reflects truth?

 

[gpit]

IMO Democracy is the best/least worst system for all..

So be it believed.

I believe in results.

working for? What do you want to be a bird in a gilded cage or free?
Communism curtails basic human rights.. it to me is unethical.. basic Human rights are to be able to chose, to be free etc. which is bypassed in a communist regime...

As per UN HDI, for instance.

Please elaborate? are you suggesting Chinese follow the models of Singapore, SK, Japan and Taiwan? and which models will they be political, social, economic etc?

Anything that is good for the people will be taken step by step, hopefully. Not the bad thing though.

 

[gpit]

and who are you or me to decide the hierarchical model of freedom?
a holyman living in a forest for eg would rather like to have the freedom to carry out his spiritual activities rather than anything a else, a child would rather like the freedom to play all day long, an old man would like the freedom to die with dignity, a businessman would rather like freedom in carrying out his business, a scholar would like a freedom of information etc.

All those freedoms need a basic freedom to support: freedom to survive!

This is a common sense.

doesn't make sense really. freedom to live is a misnomer.
Humans and Animals have four very important similarities need for self-preservation and then comes the need for food, shelter and procreation in interchangeable order...

Funny! without freedom to survive what else can you do?

Govt's duty is not only to feed but also allow expression..
even animals can manage to obtain food to eat so can humans but animals and humans differ in their ability to expression etc

Government's fundamental function is to make sure that its people can live. If people can't keep a live body, what to express?

why do you think a hungry and uneducated person not be allowed to possess basic human freedom??

Do you think a person, dying of huger, his priority is to hold a political rally, not to fill his stomach?

why do you think a literate person deserves more freedom than an illiterate person?
Does democracy guarantee people will not have food?

Do you think an illiterate, in general, can be more eloquent in debate, in expression of his idea, than a literate?

Wasn't CPC responsible for deaths due to starvation of millions?

Condemnable, though it was 40-50 years ago. Then do you think isn't democratically elected GOI responsible for 40000 died pregnant women every year now, the death-garden now?

WHy do you think other govts would not feed and educate their citizens?

Truly weird, isn't it?

But you death-garden story let us know this unbelievable thing; Your 40% illiteracy tells the ugly side.

In comparison, authoritarian China had 90% illiteracy in 1949, now it has 10%. What do you think?

why don't you think a govt which is elected by the people not take steps to feed people and educate them while not curtailing freedom?

You tell me, Sir.

How about "soft kill", if you don't mind?

what if God-forbid a calamity occurs in China and many more die of starvation or agri-fields are ruined or there is a shortage of food? then CPC will curtail even more rights?

According to some of Indian friends' theory, it is CPC that killed so many when there was a famine. Why then it is not democratic GOI that killed so many when we talk about famine on Bharat?

Do we hear something called double-standard?