Pakistan before 90s

[VCheng]

@Syed.Ali.Haider @FaujHistorian A thread you should definitely see.

Already following, Sir.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Ayub Khan's Visit to Untied States in 1961

Truely a gem of movie showcases , what went wrong for Pakistan so much respect was given to Ayyub Khan's visit
as if he just had came back from Moon , its not even clear what he did back in 60's other then come to power in Pakistan instead of Fatima Jinnah

The reception is truly extra ordinary

Movie ends with statement , " convinced a nation of solid friendship of Pakistan"

Wondering how great it must have been to be touring streets of major cities and in official prade or attending private dinners and parties

 

[Arsalan]

I agree that both the extreme of Islam and secularism are too extreme for Pakistan, middle ground is needed. However, the mentality of Pakistanis is far closer to the Islamic extremism, and that is something we must face up to, active insurgency in our neighborhoods and cities is not something we should be surprised at, this sort of mentality easily accommodates these types, people in our country vote and support parties/politics who use religion by their millions.

Agreed. However i hope that you will also agree with the fact that one kind of extremism CANNOT be fought with the other kind. This will just mess up things even more. We are more prone to Islamic Extremism but the answer to that is moderation not secularism.

What they're saying is true. Alcohol consumption is haram, fine. I'm of the opinion however, that not all things even if they are true need to be said. Why can't they accept that some of their countrymen or some other human enjoys alcohol consumption and isn't as religious as you? There is no compulsion in religion, but our people don't understand that.

Now in that picture the kids kept saying, what is there to be proud of? I say, what is there to be ashamed of? You have some Pakistanis in that picture doing what they wan't to do freely. Pakistanis need their civil liberties, it's only way to stop them from continuing like sheep, that's what they are when it comes to religion, sheep led by those who like to politicize their religion.

Sorry friend, but dont you think that this Moderation rule also applies on you and me and all of us? i mean, inst it there right as well to say as they please if we are talking about being a bit more liberal. Specially considering the fact that we cannot deny this to be exactly what our religions says, even if we do not follow or accept, we cant deny this to be true.
If you think something is bad and no one can deny that it is bad, socially, religiously, health wise and all the possible angles there is no harm in saying or terming it as wrong!!

They make a mockery of their own religion, at every given public opportunity they'll wave their flag and I other people's faces.

Sorry but i disagree again. Following ones religion and beliefs OPENLY in public is nothing to be ashamed of. IF Christians can make a cross on there chest, Hindus can seek to there gods and goddess in every crisis (even there movies portray this, all of them!! ) why cant Muslims openly say Haram things Haram? Also do note that no one can deny the fact that Islam is much more rigorously followed compared to other two religions, or at least it is claimed to be so don't see any harm in following Islam openly.

Whether it is Haram or halal, or nothing, it's not their place to comment. If they want to prove themselves of their own religion, they should do it in the privacy of their homes and mosques, and most importantly in their own hearts. Shouting and making scenes in public is neither Islamic nor decent.

Again, cant agree

" jab tum burai ko daikho to hath se roko, hath se roknay ki taqat na rakho to zuban se roko agar zuban se rokne ki taqat na ho to dil main bura jano aur ye eman ki sab se kamzor halat hai.
Jo burai ko dil main bhe bura na janay us ke andar ratti barabar eman nahe hai"

I am not advocating that we should all go out and start fighting and beating up any one we see consuming Alcohol, neither i think that this is the meaning of above Hadis. But i cant also say that saying Alcohol to be Haram openly with out shame is wrong. No shame is saying what our religion teaches us.

All said, i am not preaching any of guys, for me religion is between the man and his God and you all are sensible enough of take care of yours yourself. If any one does any thing wrong they have to answer for that themselves but being in an Islamic State we do have to condemn the social sins and do have to call wrong what is wrong.
Still preaching is what is required. Preaching of true actual Islam!!

EDIT: Oh and as far as the picture goes, i have Liked it and don't feel ashamed of it.

 

[ghazi52]

Map of Karachi, 1893

 

[ghazi52]

Tram services in Karachi

 

[ghazi52]

A 1955 bottle of Pakola. Every Pakistani knows about Pakola Ice-Cream Soda. The bright green coloured soft-drink that is also hailed (unofficially, though) to be ‘Pakistan’s national soft-drink.’

But for the first few years Pakola struggled to find a market for itself that was packed with popular soft-drinks such as Coca-Cola, 7Up and Bubble-Up.
Then in 1955 it even had to print the words ‘Non-Alcoholic’ on its bottles because thanks to its striking colour, some stores (in Karachi) actually began storing it alongside their stock of alcoholic beverages!

By the 1970s however, Pakola finally established itself as a popular soft-drink

 

[dexter]

First time posting a non coloured pic but it worth posting.

Scenes from Liaquat Ali Khan's funeral - Karachi 1951

 

[Khan_patriot]

Shame we have come to the level we are at now, its truly a pity.....

 

[MarkovChain]

This thread is a real nice cultural journey for someone not from Pakistan. Excellent work guys.

 

[dexter]

Mid 1950s: The Tomb of Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan at‪#‎Karachi‬

‪#‎DiedToday‬ - Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan, the first premier of ‪#‎Pakistan‬.
On 16 October 1951, Khan was shot twice in the chest during a public meeting of the Muslim City League at Company Bagh (Company Gardens), Rawalpindi.

After his assassination a guard was appointed to protect his grave. We are funny people.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Agreed. However i hope that you will also agree with the fact that one kind of extremism CANNOT be fought with the other kind. This will just mess up things even more. We are more prone to Islamic Extremism but the answer to that is moderation not secularism.

I agree with that, living in Western Europe gives me a 'personal' preference to secularism, but for Pakistan it isn't right and it certainly isn't ready for it anyhow.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that each nation has to find it's own way, not everyone can be suited to Western secular democracies, or Western Europe social democratic values etc. The Chinese have seen prosperity with their model, the Americans have theirs and we must come up with our own.

But this is the part I stress, the current path will lead us all to hell. Secularism may not be the answer, but some degree of adoption of secularist ideals would be an excellent start in my opinion.

Sorry friend, but dont you think that this Moderation rule also applies on you and me and all of us? i mean, inst it there right as well to say as they please if we are talking about being a bit more liberal. Specially considering the fact that we cannot deny this to be exactly what our religions says, even if we do not follow or accept, we cant deny this to be true.
If you think something is bad and no one can deny that it is bad, socially, religiously, health wise and all the possible angles there is no harm in saying or terming it as wrong!!

I agree! You have misunderstood me and left out a vital detail in this mix.

I am 100% of the belief that people, Pakistanis should be allowed to speak freely. If a Muslim sees his countrymen doing something he doesn't like, he can bash them and comment as he pleases. But in Pakistan, it doesn't stop there, it's not just freedom of speech, it goes on to hate speech and outright criminal behaviour.

Since when can a country claim to hold to civil liberties such as freedom of speech for the mainstream Muslim crowd, but when a secular says it, or some moderate, or a non-Muslim says it, they get death threats, and often are killed.

These kids should be allowed to say as they please and comment 'haram!' if they please, but ask them a bit more and I'm 100% sure they will also believe that with their ever so rosy freedom of speech, they also believe that the freedom to drink alcohol should not be there.

Again, it's one thing to hold civil liberties and another to cherry pick and then only have a certain group be protected by it.
In Pakistan, kids can comment like that, our moulvis can do the same, our lunatics can kill people, but speak a word WE don't like and we'll have you on death row for blasphemy.

I hope you'll agree with me when I say, if Pakistanis wan't to comment like that using their freedoms, then they should also allow that privilege where it doesn't suit them.

Freedom is all about give and take, I say something you don't like to hear and then I turn must put up with what you have to say too.

Sorry but i disagree again. Following ones religion and beliefs OPENLY in public is nothing to be ashamed of. IF Christians can make a cross on there chest, Hindus can seek to there gods and goddess in every crisis (even there movies portray this, all of them!! ) why cant Muslims openly say Haram things Haram? Also do note that no one can deny the fact that Islam is much more rigorously followed compared to other two religions, or at least it is claimed to be so don't see any harm in following Islam openly.

They can do so if they wish. But I reserve my views, too many of them make a mockery of their own religion.
Just a month ago or so, a British Pakistani Muslim made a petition and fb group to help ban a popular children's show 'Peppa Pig', people who don't pray 5 times a day, who've never recited the Quran in their own language, self professed scholars with egos beyond all imagination, yet with all that accomplished they still find time to attack on such petty issues.

Dunces like this make a mockery of us.

While I agree, a man should be allowed to wear his religion freely, nothing at all wrong with it. Shoving it in other people's faces is wrong. Your freedom ends, where my nose starts.

Again, cant agree

" jab tum burai ko daikho to hath se roko, hath se roknay ki taqat na rakho to zuban se roko agar zuban se rokne ki taqat na ho to dil main bura jano aur ye eman ki sab se kamzor halat hai.
Jo burai ko dil main bhe bura na janay us ke andar ratti barabar eman nahe hai"

Yes, I've considered this before, but I don't make of this quote what you make of it. Bad deeds that exist in modern day society are vast and more often than not are individual concern and not the business of others. TTP type groups use arguments that they're doing God's work by stopping us from sinning like this, but not a grain of justification is needed to condemn their mentality.

It's important to do all that you can for the betterment of your own self and your own society, that is your jihad as a Muslim, see a poor man, feed him, go to work, work hard. What you can't do in this day and age is, see something you disagree with, forcibly stop it, unless the situation implores you and affects not just the perpetrators own self, but others too.

You cannot seriously use that quote to argue that intervention, forcefully if needed is justified ANYWHERE where a man sees wrong?

We'd be all at each others' throats in no time. My interpretation of that quote is completely different to yours in this case.

I am not advocating that we should all go out and start fighting and beating up any one we see consuming Alcohol, neither i think that this is the meaning of above Hadis. But i cant also say that saying Alcohol to be Haram openly with out shame is wrong. No shame is saying what our religion teaches us.

This makes no sense from the argument presented above, please understand this, if you mean 'calling it like it is', then quote you put in your argument context goes above and beyond that friend.

All said, i am not preaching any of guys, for me religion is between the man and his God and you all are sensible enough of take care of yours yourself. If any one does any thing wrong they have to answer for that themselves but being in an Islamic State we do have to condemn the social sins and do have to call wrong what is wrong.
Still preaching is what is required. Preaching of true actual Islam!!

Fine, I can agree with that, honesty is a vital part of faith and goodwill, freedom and morality sometimes means telling hard truths. But please realise, that in Pakistan people go beyond this point and kill if motivated this way.

My point is not to bash the individual posters for calling it what it is, but for the mentality they represent in many Pakistanis.

EDIT:

Oh and as far as the picture goes, i have Liked it and don't feel ashamed of it.

Your view is clear to me. However, I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say friend.

 

[dexter]

Badshahi Masjid and Walled City of ‪#‎Lahore‬ from Minar-e-Pakistan c. 1970s

 

[Arsalan]

Your view is clear to me. However, I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say friend.

I wont be quoting your point for point as the thread is going a bit off track and i would love to see a few more of those lovely pic.

However, i feel that Both of us WERE not understand what point the other was trying to make but things are clearing up a bit. I do not disagree with most of your points in above post that you have started with " In Pakistan it normally goes beyond that..." my point simply was that the intialy comments that we started discussing where some was saying that Alcohol is Haram were not "Beyond that line" and being in a Muslim i feel this is the only thing one can or should say, still, everyone is responsible for there deeds.

Regarding the Hadis i quoted, i would love to have your interpretation of that but again i am afraid we are going off topic. May be you can send me a Private message or something. I do believe that the quote do covers what i was saying, even if at the lowest possible rank/Merit (theesray darajay).

I agree that while adopting some modern values from west may be good for us but only a very few of those. Also, most of those, if you study in detail will be from Islam itself, things that we have forgotten or do not care for anymore but they are following it as there Rules or Social values. At least the good things we can adopt from them are like this, i do not see how brothels or bars can help us develop so surely i am not talking about these Talking about some things that we can adopt from west that are good for our society.

 

[dexter]

Hakeem Muhammad Saeed
A true scholar, writer, intellectual, innovator, entrepreneur and a philanthropist, Hakeem Muhammad Saeed is alive as an amazing person of diverse abilities in memories of Pakistan even years after his tragic murder in 1998.

Hakim Saeed, as he was popularly known established Hamdard Dawakhana, from the institution his father created in India before partition. His organization which was mainly focused on traditional medicine later went on to diversify in fields of higher education, publishing and social work. Hamdard is one of the largest production facilities of traditional or herbal medicines in Pakistan. Hakim Saeed's work in reviving traditional medicine is considered to be pioneering in contemporary times because he established on modern footings and got it recognized by established bodies like World Health Organization (WHO).

Hakim Saeed was always optimistic and enthusiastic about Pakistan and what all this country has to offer. He established 'Madina-tul-Hikmat' (city of wisdom) in outskirts of Karachi which today houses different institutions of higher education including Hamdard university. Hakim Saeed was always very fond of interacting with children and was a popular figure among them through his writing from a children magazine, Naunehal. Hakim Saeed also served as Governor of Sindh.

Hakeem Muhammad Saeed & his elder brother Hakeem Abdul Majeed in 50s.

 

[Established_1965]

What went wrong was 1977-1979, Zia ul-Haq comes to power in a coup and hangs Bhutto, Iranian Revolution in 1979 and Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979.

That caused Pakistan to become a radical, intolerant, pseduo-jihadist state and whose price which we are still paying today.

Damn! you guys could be regretting it each and every day! Pakistan in 70's is just like Turkey.
Its very hard to find a muslim country with right balance of culture and acceptance like Turkey.