Pakistan awaits Singh visit: FM

[Spring Onion]

resolution of Kashmir

 

[Bull]

As long as we keep on talking about Kashmir there can be no solutions.The only way forward is to stop thinking about Kashmir.

 

[Contrarian]

Jana, as softly as i can say on the kashmir issue.
There is NO solution to Kashmir. Things will remain the way they are for everymore unless there is a war b/w India and Pakistan. No country in the world can take Kashmir from India militarily, and India cannot risk the wrath of the rest of the world if it takes Azad Kashmir unilaterally.

The best way forward is to forget kashmir and focus on other areas of co-operation to build trust. Otherwise there will be a war, that i can guarentee.

 

[Lahori paa jee]

Jana, as softly as i can say on the kashmir issue.
There is NO solution to Kashmir. Things will remain the way they are for everymore unless there is a war b/w India and Pakistan. No country in the world can take Kashmir from India militarily, and India cannot risk the wrath of the rest of the world if it takes Azad Kashmir unilaterally.

The best way forward is to forget kashmir and focus on other areas of co-operation to build trust. Otherwise there will be a war, that i can guarentee.

No i dont agree with you on that. Unless Kashmir is solved the problems are going to stay.

We have seen many CBMs in the past but all of them failed with a single bomb blast

 

[vnomad]

No i dont agree with you on that. Unless Kashmir is solved the problems are going to stay.

So what's the solution to Kashmir? I can't see any. Just autonomy to Kashmir is not acceptable to Pakistan and any cessation of territory is not acceptable to India.

 

[Contrarian]

let me rephrase what i said;

There is no PRACTICAL solution to kashmir. Things wil remain the way they are.
Also, you might not like to hear this, but with the Indian economy increasing stupendously, the position is going to become more and more rigid.
No terrirtory will be yielded by India. And Pakistan will not release its own kashmir nor stop its demand for Indian Kashmir.

So what is the answer?....forget kashmir. that is the only way.

Its simple as that. India is more amenable to flexibility on its issues with China. As china negotiates from a position of strength wrt India. The same thing that India does to Pakistan. Many of fellow Indians too might now like what they hear but the fact is China will not give us our occupied territories in the 65 war, and we CANT make them. What we can do is atleast solve all the other areas. Agree to the LoAC was IB with China. So future conflicts are avoided and trust is established. There is a different stance with Pakistan.

We will not give Kashmir, that most Indians believe is rightfully theirs. it cannot happen under the sun.

 

[blain2]

let me rephrase what i said;

There is no PRACTICAL solution to kashmir. Things wil remain the way they are.
Also, you might not like to hear this, but with the Indian economy increasing stupendously, the position is going to become more and more rigid.
No terrirtory will be yielded by India. And Pakistan will not release its own kashmir nor stop its demand for Indian Kashmir.

So what is the answer?....forget kashmir. that is the only way.

Its simple as that. India is more amenable to flexibility on its issues with China. As china negotiates from a position of strength wrt India. The same thing that India does to Pakistan. Many of fellow Indians too might now like what they hear but the fact is China will not give us our occupied territories in the 65 war, and we CANT make them. What we can do is atleast solve all the other areas. Agree to the LoAC was IB with China. So future conflicts are avoided and trust is established. There is a different stance with Pakistan.

We will not give Kashmir, that most Indians believe is rightfully theirs. it cannot happen under the sun.

Well then India will continue to bleed. You cannot become a major power (or beyond that a superpower) for as long as you have territorial disputes like the one in Kashmir....that region has the ability to cause immense instability..something that we all have seen in recent past (its funny how our Indian friends forget that so quickly).....India cannot afford Kashmir instability as inevitably it will spill over the mainland India (as has happened in the past). What will India do?, threaten Pakistan again and again? The only way out of Kashmir problem is a resolution...if you think that India can get strong economically and shy away from dealing with Kashmir then you are wrong....the more you rely on economic growth, the softer your underbelly as every instability hurts the economic growth. You can't go to war if you expect multinational companies to come and setup shop (in other words inflow of FDI requires stability) and even if you went to war, you can't expect to remain unhurt....there are quite a few question marks around this point for as long as Kashmir issue lingers.

India will not rest at peace either for as long as it carries on its unjust subjugation of Kashmiris.....the Kashmiris and Pakistan will not allow that under the sun either ....

Kashmir like Siachen has never been part of Indian territory and it will never be from a Pakistani point of view. For as long as there is contention, expect instability....eventually the insurgency in Kashmir will ratchet up again and we will be back to square one....the road you are taking wrt Kashmir has been taken by the Russians in Chechnya, Indonesians in Timore, Israelis in Palestine and by Pakistan in East Pakistan, just to name a few....the odds are stacked up against India in the long run...the economic pundits maybe wishing away the Kashmir problem but the problem is simply that economics can only temporarily pacify Kashmiris but in the long run they want nothing to do with India (this is/was the case with all of the above flashpoints that I have stated above).

Palestinians rely on Israelis for all of their trade and economic survival yet that has not changed the fact that Palestinians do not want ANYTHING to do with the Israelis.....such is the case in Kashmir (do not think that economic relations alone will make Pakistan forget about Kashmir...its the Kashmiris in Pakistan and AK that keep the issue alive in the minds of the Pakistani population)...further bifurcation of Kashmir is an eventuality whether you like it or not. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Such is the dilemma of Kashmir for India.

 

[Aryan]

There is a practical solution to Kashmir...that is to keep killing the Indian soldiers who set foot on Kashmiri soil. It works fine for the Kashmiris and it doesn't seem to bother your government. How's that for a status quo

Wake up and smell the coffee Indians, it's impossible for Pakistan to compromise on Kashmir because Pakistan can not exist without Kashmir. Even if a corrupt government did "sell out" on Kashmir, the liberation struggle would still continue. It would just take a little longer

 

[EagleEyes]

Or we can choose a Gandhi way.

Protest, and get killed. Some people have been doing that for sometime, but still no action from outside world.

 

[Contrarian]

Well then India will continue to bleed. You cannot become a major power (or beyond that a superpower) for as long as you have territorial disputes like the one in Kashmir....that region has the ability to cause immense instability..something that we all have seen in recent past (its funny how our Indian friends forget that so quickly).....India cannot afford Kashmir instability as inevitably it will spill over the mainland India (as has happened in the past). What will India do?, threaten Pakistan again and again? The only way out of Kashmir problem is a resolution...if you think that India can get strong economically and shy away from dealing with Kashmir then you are wrong....the more you rely on economic growth, the softer your underbelly as every instability hurts the economic growth. You can't go to war if you expect multinational companies to come and setup shop (in other words inflow of FDI requires stability) and even if you went to war, you can't expect to remain unhurt....there are quite a few question marks around this point for as long as Kashmir issue lingers.

India will not rest at peace either for as long as it carries on its unjust subjugation of Kashmiris.....the Kashmiris and Pakistan will not allow that under the sun either ....

Kashmir like Siachen has never been part of Indian territory and it will never be from a Pakistani point of view. For as long as there is contention, expect instability....eventually the insurgency in Kashmir will ratchet up again and we will be back to square one....the road you are taking wrt Kashmir has been taken by the Russians in Chechnya, Indonesians in Timore, Israelis in Palestine and by Pakistan in East Pakistan, just to name a few....the odds are stacked up against India in the long run...the economic pundits maybe wishing away the Kashmir problem but the problem is simply that economics can only temporarily pacify Kashmiris but in the long run they want nothing to do with India (this is/was the case with all of the above flashpoints that I have stated above).

Palestinians rely on Israelis for all of their trade and economic survival yet that has not changed the fact that Palestinians do not want ANYTHING to do with the Israelis.....such is the case in Kashmir (do not think that economic relations alone will make Pakistan forget about Kashmir...its the Kashmiris in Pakistan and AK that keep the issue alive in the minds of the Pakistani population)...further bifurcation of Kashmir is an eventuality whether you like it or not. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Such is the dilemma of Kashmir for India.

Kashmir region does hae the potential to cause instability, which according to you will hurt us very bad economically. But do tell me, this has been happening since more than a decade now. Which copany has decided NOT to invest in India because of it?? We started oir reforms in 1991. Since then how has Kashmir hampered our economy? Our ecnomy is booming, and Kashmir or not, It will grow. Sure, if we goto war, a proper war, we wont remain unhurt. But after the war, peace will be guarenteedfor atleast 5 deacades. This time, the govt will want to completely end the Pakistani problem in case of war. Surely we wont remain hurt, especially if nukes are used. But we will surive, limp on so to speak, very hurt, some parts destroyed, but we will move on. The sheer vastness of India assures that.

You ask what India will do to retaliate other than war? What do u think is happening in Balochistan? What do you think is happening in other areas of Pakistan? What do u think HAPPENED in the Bangladesh liberation war?--->RAW. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If Pakistan decides to pursue Kashmir, India will decide to further pursue these areas. This is a 2 way street: causing strife and rebelions in foreign countries. Thus both countries can play this game.

Why cannot India become a major power? My friend India ALREADY is a major power in the S.A region. This status is a relative term wrt to other countries in the region. In S.A Which country can challenge India economically or militarily? Sure, we have an abundance of problems, but that does not dispute the raw facts.

What India wants is to become a major power in the global arena. And it is a misconception that Kashmir will not let us be one. Our economy grows. Our military grows. By gods grace, i hope they cross the 3% GDP barrier in defense. Our influence grows. That is what takes to become a major power. As regards to Kashmir on this issue, the more economy grows, the more capabilities we give to our army. The better equipment we have, the better they fight terrorists. We have already seen the difference just a few night-vision devices had in the region. There will be more fencing, there will be better surveilance. The more easily army can stay there. The less they will bleed. We dont mind sacrificing soldiers for the country. Hell if its a matter of country, i'l go there and fight the damn terrorists myself.

You also conveniently forget the world pressure on Musharraf to stop terrorism. Do you know how much positive effect the removal of Taliban has caused. The manpower or the recruiing area of ISI has dropped. The world forces Musharraf to do something. Even unwililngly, he is doing many things. These are all long term solutions, and they will bear fruit. No matter how much you want otherwise. These are the 'ground realities' as Mushrraf puts it. Accept them.

Now, why let me tell you ONE of the reasons why the govt wants to putKashmir on the backburner. They expect that as India grows, as it develops, Kashmir will develop too. Modern education systems are slowly put in place, madrassas removed. young Kashmiris will automatically see that their salvation lies not in forming another country or joining with Pakistan, but with India. The same way how the US settled its disputes with Mexico. The people themselves will want to remain in India because of the development here.
This is a long term solution. To eradicate the base of religious extremism. The path China is also following in many cases. This is a sureshot method. It will take time certainly, but that is why the govt is not letting anything happen.

Thus, in every possible way the Kashmir issue will get resolved. By the next decade at max. Wait and watch the game unfold. We can only hope that next time a civilian govt comes in power in Pakistan. And here, i think its safe to say that the BJP will come in power in the next term.

 

[Bull]

No i dont agree with you on that. Unless Kashmir is solved the problems are going to stay.

We have seen many CBMs in the past but all of them failed with a single bomb blast

The only solution is for Indians and Pakistanis to get on with their lives and maintain status-quo.

 

[Contrarian]

There is a practical solution to Kashmir...that is to keep killing the Indian soldiers who set foot on Kashmiri soil. It works fine for the Kashmiris and it doesn't seem to bother your government. How's that for a status quo

Wake up and smell the coffee Indians, it's impossible for Pakistan to compromise on Kashmir because Pakistan can not exist without Kashmir. Even if a corrupt government did "sell out" on Kashmir, the liberation struggle would still continue. It would just take a little longer

Well...like i said in my earlier post, tit for tat in everything that the Pak govt does. ANd btw i dont mind that status quo. neither does the govt, neither does my country. You dont know many things. Like the fact that terrorists have lost their base support in Kashmir now. The people there want peace, not violence. Give it another deacade and a host of factors will make insurgency stop there.

Also i hope you know, how many teroristss die wrt to the soldiers there. lol. There will be dearth of terrorists, not Indian soldiers. Unless pakistan starts sending its own citizens forcibly.

Well...i can send you some excelelent darjeeling tea if you want. India too cannot survive without Kashmir. And no govt here will ever do a 'sell-out' and leave kashmir alone. For they are democratically chosen. They represent the people who voted for them. For they CANNOT do it even if they want. The bill wiill have to be passed through the parliament, which represents India, and bill cannot pass. Fail proof mechanisms everywhere.

 

[Bull]

if you think that India can get strong economically and shy away from dealing with Kashmir then you are wrong....the more you rely on economic growth, the softer your underbelly as every instability hurts the economic growth. You can't go to war if you expect multinational companies to come and setup shop (in other words inflow of FDI requires stability) and even if you went to war, you can't expect to remain unhurt....there are quite a few question marks around this point for as long as Kashmir issue lingers.

NK and Sk are more hostile to each other than India and pak is,but see what Sk has done with there economy.

If Inia can show the MNCs the $$$s they will come and invest,most of the western markets have saturated and rthey need to get into newer market and India is one huge one.So kashmir is a no-case.

 

[Spring Onion]

Surely we wont remain hurt, especially if nukes are used. But we will surive, limp on so to speak, very hurt, some parts destroyed, but we will move on. The sheer vastness of India assures that..

That is one obssession indians have

What do u think is happening in Balochistan? What do you think is happening in other areas of Pakistan? What do u think HAPPENED in the Bangladesh liberation war?--->RAW. .

who can know better than us indian involvment in Balochistan.

As far Bangladesh its usher failuer for India that depsite their clevr plan they failed to anex it with India, Bangladesh is soverign Muslim Country and its petty now India has created such a mess for them to achieve own goals

What India wants is to become a major power in the global arena. And it is a misconception that Kashmir will not let us be one.
As regards to Kashmir on this issue, the more economy grows, the more capabilities we give to our army. The better equipment we have, the better they fight terrorists. We have already seen the difference just a few night-vision devices had in the region. There will be more fencing, there will be better surveilance. The more easily army can stay there. The less they will bleed. We dont mind sacrificing soldiers for the country. Hell if its a matter of country, i'l go there and fight the damn terrorists myself..

Well indeed only Kashmir can not put india economically backward.
A sfar ur millitary in Kashmir well depsite all these equipment and sure u will ready to fight freedom fighters in Kashmir but ur armymen will continue to shoot each other and commite suicides there. Just day before yesterday another indian soldier in Ori committed suicide.

Now, why let me tell you ONE of the reasons why the govt wants to putKashmir on the backburner. They expect that as India grows, as it develops, Kashmir will develop too. Modern education systems are slowly put in place, madrassas removed. young Kashmiris will automatically see that their salvation lies not in forming another country or joining with Pakistan, but with India. .

Development in IOK ?
yeh provided if Indian army stop kiiling Kashmiri youth in fake-encounters they will get jobs Muslims all over india generally are unemployed they have lost of employment problesm and BJP is not willing support job quota for them and u are talking about development in Indian Held Kashmir.

Thus, in every possible way the Kashmir issue will get resolved. By the next decade at max. Wait and watch the game unfold. We can only hope that next time a civilian govt comes in power in Pakistan. And here, i think its safe to say that the BJP will come in power in the next term.

Well civillian government in Paksiatn wil be nightmare for India on Kashmir it was only Musharraf who had made concession to India otherwise NS or BB i can bet it would be easy for us to engage them in hard stance on Kashmir and as far BJP well i pray if they come in power it would be easy to hilight Kashmir once they are in with their hard stance on Kashmir

 

[Contrarian]

As regards to Muslim unemployement. There is no discrimination on jobs by anyone. If me and a Muslim guy goto a job interview, the one with better credentials will get the job. There is no question on that. Its just that the school enrolment rate, etc are bad in Muslims, so obviously, there is lesser job oppurtunities. I hope the govt takes immediate steps for this.Quto is not a solution. They want to encourage Muslims to goto school, college's etc. Giving jobs is not the answer and that is what the govt is doing. The report of the Sachar panel has been tabled in the parliament today. Religion based quota is a bad thing. Quota on Economics is a better thing. So we suppor thwoevre is poor, hindu or muslim or sikh or whatever.

We never wanted to TAKE Bangladesh. It was never an intention to incorporate Bangladesh into India. It was just to break Pakistan. So that they have lesser size, lesser population, lesser resources, thus lesser capabilities to develop and lesser war potential relatively. That is achieved. Had Pakistan been unified, imagine, the resources they would have had!!, from gas to strategic locations. Had India fought, it would have been attacked from both sides. Who cares now if Bangladesh is anti India or not. Atleast its not Pakistan.

About the fake killings, well...it was a one off incident, is being sorted, about the suicides, the govt is taking necessary steps to stop it. I have faith in the govt to deal with such things.

Now about the present rule in Pakistan. I personally would prefer any civilian govt any day over Musharraf, the mastermind of Kargil. How can the govt trust some1 who tried to goto war with India. NS and BB atleast were chosen by YOU people. Represent what YOU want no matter what it is, and did not try to goto war with India or annex its territories.

Well there many more things, i supported congress last time, and generally i am a congress supporter, but i will support BJP this time.

I feel the govt is too soft on terrorism, too soft on many things. Had the mumbai blast thing occured with BJP, they would have gone to war. The present govt is way too soft on many things. The BJP also took national defense seriously. I agree, the present govt focuses more in economics, but BJP did a gd job that that too, and the present govt is not buying enough military material at the required pace. BJP did that. It was one of their positive's.
We need a really modernized army with the best weapons possible, dominant a/f, and a power projective navy. The 3 services need more money. BJP will surely give more money on defense. After all, gosrshkov, greenpine, awacs, mig 29K, etc were ALL signed during the BJP term.

I think we should atleast match Pakistan in our defense expenditure as a percentage of our GDP, let alone China.
I am hopefull that within 2 years at max, India will cross the 3% GDP barrier on defense expenditure. We would STILL be behind Pakistan.

We'v had a soft term, now i think the country needs a hard government.