Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[hussain0216]

Al Khalid 1/2 are just name given to Chinese Tanks with some cosmetic or western engine/instrument add ons...

Pakistan doesnt have industry to support R&D to develop indigenous solutions in civilian or military sectors... this is well known to the world, dependent on china .. pakistan is deeply sub survient to chinese wishes...

This is why India was humiliated and out thought in February 2019

There are detailed threads on AK and AK1 (AK2 is still in development, if it was a simple purchase it wouldn't take us this long to get it ready)

The delusions of grandeur amongst Indians has made war more likely because in their minds super duper vedic technology like Tejas and Arjunk will overcome everything

We are hoping to spring some surprises on them

 

[ARMalik]

Chinese engine has failed in tests before and in other trials.Lets see how it works in the field with PA,especially in the desert.Chinese are new to engine making and are not known for their quality.Fingers crossed.

Oh God, not you again. Stop derailing this thread.

 

[kongn]

AK1 is actually quite poorly designed for protection and carry over weakness of autoloader design too. Missile firing ability can be used for many other fighting vehicles too so Bhisma is not just for this. It's actually still highly dangerous tank in this region because it is not most advanced level. It is for numbers and can fight all the 1970s to 2000s tanks which still is majority in this region. So unless comparing with top tanks modern ones and versions it is still very good.

What you are saying is correct both bhisma and khalid are previous century tanks.,but this is the wrong place to say this.Edit the first line before the fanboys come out in force.

 

[serenity]

I meant VT-4 has 1300 HP engine.But MS is lighter.Lets see how 1300 HP engine performs.Can't pass judgement now.The desert is a tough environment.FY4 better than relikt is a tall claim thats all i will say.
I hope they don't fight.But i'm interested in IA's response.

VT-4 is 52 tonne and MS is 48 tonne. VT-4 is 1300hp MS is 1130hp NOT 1300hp! That shows power per tonne for VT-4 is 25hp/tonne compared to MS which has just under 24hp/tonne. Therefore it is not accurate like you said where T90MS is much better power per tonne in fact it is about the same. Now for quality and reliability, neither can comment. FY4 I have read some Chinese leak material that make it seem very comparable to best Russian and Ukrainian types. It is already older now and can be replaced if customers want but yeah we cannot really comment for certain.

Why hope they don't fight? We all talk so much about these things let's hope they do and then we will see what is just talk and what proves to be really good performance for the money.

 

[IblinI]

Chinese pla is without any solid support stationed against India in occupied Tibbet what strategy chinese can execute as in long drawn war it’s imminent chinese pla will not have continued supply to its frontier troops... with one child policy the famous human wave tactic is long dead for pla

Don't waste our time. @waz

 

[serenity]

VT-4 purchase by Pakistan army I said years ago. Dazzler I remember disagree with me and convinced Pakistan army will buy something else and develop own designs and how VT-4 is very flawed in some different ways. Of course no way you can buy perfect tank for export price of $5M each. Maybe Korean K2 for middle weight or Leopard a7 for heavy and Japanese tank 10 for light weight are best in most regard. But export price will be between $15M to $20M each with similar level of training and support.

 

[LKJ86]

Don't waste our time. @waz

VT-4 purchase by Pakistan army I said years ago. Dazzler I remember disagree with me and convinced Pakistan army will buy something else and develop own designs and how VT-4 is very flawed in some different ways. Of course no way you can buy perfect tank for export price of $5M each. Maybe Korean K2 for middle weight or Leopard a7 for heavy and Japanese tank 10 for light weight are best in most regard. But export price will be between $15M to $20M each with similar level of training and support.

Don't make our Indian friends so desperate...

 

[serenity]

What you are saying is correct both bhisma and khalid are previous century tanks.,but this is the wrong place to say this.Edit the first line before the fanboys come out in force.

Don't worry I don't care and it is true anyway and easy to show. In fact even today I think Chinese tank designs are quite flawed due to autoloader using the Soviet style rather than what ZTQ-15 uses now. Anyway it is too late to change and apply the lessons until new generation tanks. Anyway the numbers of tanks is very important and lucky for PLA we have shit side armor but thousands of tanks in every direction so anyone wants to shoot the side will be quite lucky.

I didn't say t90ms has better power per tonne,i said 'mobility is largely equal' which it is as difference very marginal.
I don't think chinese shit is cheap at all,top of the line chinese tanks like type-99 will be formidable.But yes chinese tank industry cant be expected to have same maturity as the russians who have been tank pioneers for a hundred years.The chinese will catch up no doubt with better funding,but wont happen overnight.

Came accross this,just shows you the innovativeness of russian designers to think of something like this in 1980s.Armata is a scaled down modernized version of this.

Yes I agree. I think MS and VT-4 mobility range and acceleration all quite similar. Honestly it is so close they really doesn't matter much. But Russians are definitely tank experts even today. We cannot fairly compare their cold war philosophy of design today so I think the other guys are being unfair. Still we inherit some bad designs for 2020 which only new light tank 15 has changed. By now Russian school is playing with Armata and due to finances they are slow to introduce and sort production problems out. Anyway I think our army is too poor after spedning everything on navy and airforce and space. The government just says have certainty land war is too easy for China but we cannot compare with USA in navy or airforce so desperately need to improve there.

 

[waz]

T-90MS has better turret geometry,better ERA with relikt,better distribution of ERA,and ammo is also sealed in armoured compartment .Laser warning recievers as well as optional active/passive defences.
Firepower is also better on Proryv-3 with its new gun able to fire the svinets round.Fire control and hunter killer aspects are same.Both have 3rd gen thermal viewer.Both are digitally connected with satellite navigation available.
Mobility largely equal.1300 HP engine.T-90 lighter.You speak of 1500 HP but you will be lucky to have 1300 hp chinese engine working reliably,if it fails you may have to go back to 900 hp engine.

No it doesn't have better geometry, both have a low silhouette and the VT-4 borrows also from western designs, the T-90MS had a dated design from three decades back, itself based on the T-72.
The VT4 also has receivers and i've already written about the defencive systems.
No firepower is not better, the guns are around the same and the VT-4 comes with the DTC125 round which is able to penetrate 750 millimeters at 2km, and is touted as good by western experts.
Optics are similar but electronic systems on the VT-4 are better.
Mobility is not "largely" equal, even with the T-90MS being lighter. The horse power to ton ratio is better in the VT-4 for the 1300HP, and for the 1500HP is it far greater.
The Chinese engine is working properly and passed with flying colours under severe heat and sand filled conditions. Stop writing silly things about Chinese reliability, this seems to be your default option when you run out of things to write about.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Arjun MK1 has time and over again shown its superiority over T-90 Bhishma...
T-90 MS will never be more superior to Arjun MK1A or Mk2

A fukin piece of shit leopard copy assembled in india, plagued by design flaws, spare issues, obsolete with only 125 produced most of which are grounded.

 

[princefaisal]

AhmAd IbrAhim in his twitter account informed that Pakistan, reportedly, has purchased 300 VT-4 MBTs from #Norinco in a deal worth ~$1 Billion.Is it true?

 

[serenity]

Why? Why some people here believe a country with low GDP, low input into sciense and technology can develop something good? Are they fortunate enough to get something better than others for free?

South Africa is not so backwards in science and technology or education in fact it is quite good. They also have quite mature and specialist industry but yes I doubt it is that much better and it is certainly much more expensive. I can understand a simple technology like these artillery can easily be made to be better and better just depends what you need and what you can pay. This is quite insulting without being asked for because they did not say anything and your point is inaccurate anyway.

A fukin piece of shit leopard copy assembled in india, plagued by design flaws, spare issues, obsolete with only 125 produced most of which are grounded.

India will continue to work on Arjun and to be honest it is quite difficult to produce all this alone for first time. We will see in future how successful the program is with Indian army using the second version. They already showed in trial it is quite good, better than Bhsima and actually it is possible for it to be a very good tank. It is however very expensive since development costs are also considered. Not same level tank though because Arjun 2 is heavy weight and VT-4 is light to medium weight and Russian ones are light weight.

 

[LKJ86]

 

[aliaselin]

South Africa is not so backwards in science and technology or education in fact it is quite good.

How could？ What the ranking of SA on Nature index? Have you done any science? Have you read any patent or paper done in SA? If not, how could you prove they are good?

 

[waz]

Not same level tank though because Arjun 2 is heavy weight and VT-4 is light to medium weight and Russian ones are light weight.

VT-4 would be medium i.e. anything above 50 tons. Anything above 60 would be heavy. You have the M1A2C crossing 70 tons!