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Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

I would recommend reading the forum threads regarding these specific topics to find answers, most of them are already available and fairly obvious. I know that some of it will involve quite a bit of digging, but I simply don’t have the time to type out answers to these because they’ll inevitably be long and drawn out. It’s not that people misunderstood, it that such questions often draw out suspicion rather than interest.

To sum it up as shortly as possible; Of course PAs tactics change with time and technology (and most importantly with how the enemy planning changes). Of course there is mobile SHORAD cover, you simply can’t do an armored assault without it, FM90, Orleikons, thousands of MANPADS and smaller calibre AA guns, A2A missiles on Helicopters and UAVs etc.
PA is searching for a new, modern SHORAD system at the moment as well, again, details regarding what systems they’ve tested and how it’s going is available on the forum. Post-1999 there’s been a huge influence on combined ops between the PAF-PA and several exercises regarding that too, they absolutely cannot work without each other in an all out war.

Your questions regarding deployments, tactics and battle orders can be answered better by other users, I tend not to talk about such stuff both because there’s people who have more knowledge than me and because I don’t want to risk divulging something that shouldn’t be made public, and again, a fair bit is already available on the forum in the postings of certain members.
Don't we have a SHORAD already??
 
Pakistan and China need to come up with system like TROPHY of Israel for their Tanks and integrate with all of their Tanks. Without a Trophy like system Tanks and APC are sitting ducks.
 
Pakistan and China need to come up with system like TROPHY of Israel for their Tanks and integrate with all of their Tanks. Without a Trophy like system Tanks and APC are sitting ducks.
Come on man, can at least you of all stop this annoying-*** trend of popping into a random thread, making a random demand/claim without even reading about what’s going on and then just leave. What do you think the GL5 and GL6 are? Did you even read the long conversation that was just had about PA and APS systems?

I’m just sort of tired of technical threads being ruined by this stuff.

Don't we have a SHORAD already??
Yes we do, FM90, but it’s not that good, they’re looking for something more modern to supplement it.
 
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Come on man, can at least you of all stop this annoying-*** trend of popping into a random thread, making a random demand/claim without even reading about what’s going on and then just leave. What do you think the GL5 and GL6 are? Did you even read the long conversation that was just had about PA and APS systems?

I’m just sort of tired of technical threads being ruined by this stuff.


Yes we do, FM90, but it’s not that good, they’re looking for something more modern.
After seeing what happened to Tanks in Ukraine. This is the most legitimate demand. And yes, I know China is working on them but until they are integrated in all of older and new Tanks demand would still remain there. Because without those systems Tanks are pretty much a gone case.
 
After seeing what happened to Tanks in Ukraine. This is the most legitimate demand. And yes, I know China is working on them but until they are integrated in all of older and new Tanks demand would still remain there. Because without those systems Tanks are pretty much a gone case.
Don’t use Ukraine as a test case for deployment of armour in a theatre by a professional army. Russia has proved its military c2 and tactics are a laughing stock.
 
After seeing what happened to Tanks in Ukraine. This is the most legitimate demand. And yes, I know China is working on them but until they are integrated in all of older and new Tanks demand would still remain there. Because without those systems Tanks are pretty much a gone case.
My problem is not your demand, even if the example of Ukraine is flawed, my problem is that it adds absolutely nothing of value to this thread or the discussion that was being conducted here. You just write a two-liner to ask for an unrealistic demand and that’s it? Even though said demand and it’s need was already discussed multiple times prior on the thread. And then you just assume that tanks are a “gone case” without really anything to back that up.

This is basically a waste of a post in a technical thread. That’s my problem.
 
After seeing what happened to Tanks in Ukraine. This is the most legitimate demand. And yes, I know China is working on them but until they are integrated in all of older and new Tanks demand would still remain there. Because without those systems Tanks are pretty much a gone case.
A big part of this is bad tactics....not enough infantry and air support. Tanks will always be subject to a 10% - 20% loss rate (just the nature of tank combat). Personally, I don't think APS is a magic solution. Russian tanks with early APS systems have been knocked out in this war (most likely by artillery). Major take away is that focusing on armor just for the frontal arc of the tank is not enough. Ways to armor the top have to be explored as well. Personally I think some sort of unmanned turret or retro redesign like a casemate tank chassis may be solutions.
 
I would recommend reading the forum threads regarding these specific topics to find answers, most of them are already available and fairly obvious. I know that some of it will involve quite a bit of digging, but I simply don’t have the time to type out answers to these because they’ll inevitably be long and drawn out. It’s not that people misunderstood, it that such questions often draw out suspicion rather than interest.

To sum it up as shortly as possible; Of course PAs tactics change with time and technology (and most importantly with how the enemy planning changes). Of course there is mobile SHORAD cover, you simply can’t do an armored assault without it, FM90, Orleikons, thousands of MANPADS and smaller calibre AA guns, A2A missiles on Helicopters and UAVs etc.
PA is searching for a new, modern SHORAD system at the moment as well, again, details regarding what systems they’ve tested and how it’s going is available on the forum. Post-1999 there’s been a huge influence on combined ops between the PAF-PA and several exercises regarding that too, they absolutely cannot work without each other in an all out war.

Your questions regarding deployments, tactics and battle orders can be answered better by other users, I tend not to talk about such stuff both because there’s people who have more knowledge than me and because I don’t want to risk divulging something that shouldn’t be made public, and again, a fair bit is already available on the forum in the postings of certain members.

Fair enough! First of all Thank you for sharing the information with me & everyone.

I will dig up rest of the information I seek on deployments. The knowledgeable person as yourself can surely know that I do not seek any confidential info at all. The military people in enemy state already would know these thing in fairly much details.
I only wanted to clear the perception. The perception (right or wrong) is that entire military machine sits within the cantonments which are almost inside the cities. Now, if the armoured divisions / units are only lets say in select few cantonments then assuming the worst case scenario:- With several GPS guided stand off munition the enemy can create choke points exploiting fairly populated areas around cantonments to slow down the deployment while they do their own armored thrust in our territory. I just wanted to know that this perception is wrong. I hope that our armoured units + air mobile defense units along with regularly infantry are strategically placed all over Punjab and Sindh, so they can be deployed quite quickly. I am convinced that if enemy ever has to do a full-scale war they will try do it keeping the secrecy as much as possible, giving as less time to our forces as possible. Because they know once PA fully deployed, or once our airforce is airborne then enemy will get tit-for tat.

Or quite possible, perhaps the perception is actually right, but the way I envision the worst case scenario is wrong. Perhaps PA knows that even if military machine needs to move from few cantonments, they know, they will be able to do the deployments in timely manner no matter what. Perhaps I have over-estimated the worst case scenario.

I usually emphasize things from strategic POV more then the tactical POV. The importance of quick reaction, the deployments, these things matter to me most. First wave of attack is the most critical in any war scenario. I am quite confident for PAF, the way their bases are placed, the ADA units ready in every squadron. However would like ADA response time get even quicker
given the supersonic cruise missile age. But still good enough. But my concerns are for PA & PN (perhaps for lack of information).

However, I will search around and try find these answers. Thanks for your answers on air-defense being attached with PA armoured units and glad to know that PA & PAF are doing much more combined-op trainings post 1999.
 
@iLION12345_1

I think something like this could be an interesting application from a CAS standpoint.


Basically, as the PAF gradually moves towards more J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3s, I think there's an opportunity to repurpose the Block-1s into a more CAS-type platform. I don't know how much more the Block-I can handle from an electronics standpoint, but adding a low-powered, air-cooled AESA radar, HMD/S and targeting pod can unlock a few things. Namely, we could deploy AGMs like the AAHAN above and pair with outside-the-cockpit cueing.

This could basically become our Jaguar in the sense of providing precision anti-armor/vehicle capability. We could even go a step further and try making a Sensor-Fuzed Weapon-type system (e.g., pair small loitering munitions into a stand-off range dispenser, like GB500).

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1668971078834.png
 
@iLION12345_1

I think something like this could be an interesting application from a CAS standpoint.


Basically, as the PAF gradually moves towards more J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3s, I think there's an opportunity to repurpose the Block-1s into a more CAS-type platform. I don't know how much more the Block-I can handle from an electronics standpoint, but adding a low-powered, air-cooled AESA radar, HMD/S and targeting pod can unlock a few things. Namely, we could deploy AGMs like the AAHAN above and pair with outside-the-cockpit cueing.

This could basically become our Jaguar in the sense of providing precision anti-armor/vehicle capability. We could even go a step further and try making a Sensor-Fuzed Weapon-type system (e.g., pair small loitering munitions into a stand-off range dispenser, like GB500).

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Why not just upgrade the Block 1s to Block 3 standard?
 
@iLION12345_1

I think something like this could be an interesting application from a CAS standpoint.


Basically, as the PAF gradually moves towards more J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3s, I think there's an opportunity to repurpose the Block-1s into a more CAS-type platform. I don't know how much more the Block-I can handle from an electronics standpoint, but adding a low-powered, air-cooled AESA radar, HMD/S and targeting pod can unlock a few things. Namely, we could deploy AGMs like the AAHAN above and pair with outside-the-cockpit cueing.

This could basically become our Jaguar in the sense of providing precision anti-armor/vehicle capability. We could even go a step further and try making a Sensor-Fuzed Weapon-type system (e.g., pair small loitering munitions into a stand-off range dispenser, like GB500).

View attachment 899019

View attachment 899024
Using dedicated fighter jets for CAS in the Pakistan-india theatre provides a rather unique set of both use cases and threats due to the SAM and fighter rich environment we’d have over a rather small geographical area. The Pakistan-india theatre is so unique, that there is really no other example around the world we can realistically apply to it.

Firstly it raises some major questions regarding wether the combined-ops training of the forces is strong enough to where a multi-layered and multi-day assault over (and across) the border can be planned and executed.

Let’s say a strike corps of the PA is going on an armored offensive into Indian territory in a certain location, can PAF firstly divert CAS assets and dedicate them to cover said offensive, on top of that can the PAF divert and dedicate A2A assets to said strike corps to cover the birds providing CAS to them, on top of that can the PAF divert and dedicate long range strike assets to said corps for SEAD/DEAD, and then there’s the air EW, ELINT and AWACS layers on top of that, while also coordinating with PA SHORADs, LOMADs and HIMARs systems, Gunships and tank commanders. Not to mention an entirely new layer of UAVs with the PA and the PAF.
In this way it raises equal questions about how good the PAF is at asset management and cross-task planning (how well each different type of aircraft can take care of the other, I.e. the SEAD/DEAD birds for the A2A and CAS, the A2A birds for the SEAD/DEAD and CAS etc).

This is just a small glimpse into how complex a CAS operation for the PAF is, if they can pull all of this off within acceptable standards, then yes, the JF-17 block 1s, or any fighter for that matter, can be a very useful CAS bird.

Given Pakistans terrain, air-refueling would be a minimum, and the jets could even go about without more than one drop tank and carry more ordinance instead, deciding to refuel at the nearest base instead of staying on station longer (that’s up to the PAF to decide what ratio of loiter time versus amount of ordinance works best).

I realize very little of this is in actual response or relation to your post, which really I have nothing to add to it, I agree with you, but I like to bring all of these possibilities up to remind us how many factors are being calculated for a single, seemingly simple, CAS run.

That being said, I feel like PAF is already converting older JF-17 blocks to A2G roles sort of “spiritually”, they know that once they have enough Block 3s and J-10Cs, they can give as many roles from the mirage to the JF-17 as they want.

It’s already carrying REKs, doing SEAD/DEAD with ARMs, now carrying Ra’ads and ASHMs etc, all of this once belonged to the mirage, which is now only unique in its SOW carrying capability (something I assume PAF is working on, getting new SOWs that work with the JF) and more importantly; it’s bomb-truck capability.

So if you’ve noticed, the more J-10Cs and Block 3s we get, the more precision strike roles the older JF-17 blocks take, I can’t say for certain how much this gives them a boost in CAS capabilities, but I can say that the more J-10Cs and Block 3s we get, the more free mirages we have that are no longer doing anything, and those are honestly perfect for basic CAS roles with large amounts of (unguided/cheaply guided) ordinance. That’s why I think the mirage still has a big role to play in the PAF, it’s been through countless roles already, now it could have another one. If anything I hope the PAF is looking into making them better CAS platforms and getting out the last bit of life from them this way instead of trying to put BVRs on them (I still don’t get the point behind that…).

Why not just upgrade the Block 1s to Block 3 standard?
Block 1s are already upgraded to block 2 standard IIRC. Upgrading to block 3 would take rather massive changes, at this point they’d rather keep producing more fighters to increase numbers instead of taking block 1s and 2s off active duty to upgrade them, that would be both expensive and decrease available aircraft.

There is a better method to upgrade them if PAF wants to; wait until the airframes/engines run out of life and do a full rebuild of them into block 3s, but that depends on wether it’s cost effective, it could be cheaper to simply produce new block 3s.
 
Block 1s are already upgraded to block 2 standard IIRC. Upgrading to block 3 would take rather massive changes, at this point they’d rather keep producing more fighters to increase numbers instead of taking block 1s and 2s off active duty to upgrade them, that would be both expensive and decrease available aircraft.

There is a better method to upgrade them if PAF wants to; wait until the airframes/engines run out of life and do a full rebuild of them into block 3s, but that depends on wether it’s cost effective, it could be cheaper to simply produce new block 3s.
I know, right now the effort needed to upgrade them is better spent producing new Block 3s. But once the production stops, upgrading them would be a no brainer imo. Between Block 1 and 3 they use the same engine and there aren't any major structural changes. Mostly just avionics. It should be pretty doable.
 
Fair enough! First of all Thank you for sharing the information with me & everyone.

I will dig up rest of the information I seek on deployments. The knowledgeable person as yourself can surely know that I do not seek any confidential info at all. The military people in enemy state already would know these thing in fairly much details.
I only wanted to clear the perception. The perception (right or wrong) is that entire military machine sits within the cantonments which are almost inside the cities. Now, if the armoured divisions / units are only lets say in select few cantonments then assuming the worst case scenario:- With several GPS guided stand off munition the enemy can create choke points exploiting fairly populated areas around cantonments to slow down the deployment while they do their own armored thrust in our territory. I just wanted to know that this perception is wrong. I hope that our armoured units + air mobile defense units along with regularly infantry are strategically placed all over Punjab and Sindh, so they can be deployed quite quickly. I am convinced that if enemy ever has to do a full-scale war they will try do it keeping the secrecy as much as possible, giving as less time to our forces as possible. Because they know once PA fully deployed, or once our airforce is airborne then enemy will get tit-for tat.

Or quite possible, perhaps the perception is actually right, but the way I envision the worst case scenario is wrong. Perhaps PA knows that even if military machine needs to move from few cantonments, they know, they will be able to do the deployments in timely manner no matter what. Perhaps I have over-estimated the worst case scenario.

I usually emphasize things from strategic POV more then the tactical POV. The importance of quick reaction, the deployments, these things matter to me most. First wave of attack is the most critical in any war scenario. I am quite confident for PAF, the way their bases are placed, the ADA units ready in every squadron. However would like ADA response time get even quicker
given the supersonic cruise missile age. But still good enough. But my concerns are for PA & PN (perhaps for lack of information).

However, I will search around and try find these answers. Thanks for your answers on air-defense being attached with PA armoured units and glad to know that PA & PAF are doing much more combined-op trainings post 1999.
It’s more of the “duh, of course they do that” kind of question that annoys people, I honestly don’t understand why.
What I mean to say is, when people come here and ask questions that seem like they have obvious answers, people assume it’s suspicious (which again, I don’t get why, you’re right to say most of this is already public information, so why the suspicion), but at the same time very few have time to asnwer these questions in detail since they’re obviously very broad topics, hence looking at existing discussions can help.

PAs deployments are very vast and very well thought out, the entire military has literally existed for 70 years for a single task. To fight india, so they better bloody well know what they’re doing, same goes for our freinds across the border. The placements of cantonments themselves is strategic, and the working boundary/borders of Pakistan and india outside of Kashmir are not active conflict zones and hence do not have large concentrations of troops during peacetime. Only border guards like the BSF and rangers, however in case a conflict does break out, the signs are often present well before, and the concenred regiments are present at their required strategic locations outside cantonments already.

Let me give you a single example, February 2019, Pakistan army regiments were out of their cantonments and in forward positions at borders before the Pakistan Air Force had even responded the next morning, this includes armor and artillery.

Due to Pakistans geogprahy, Pakistani strike and defensive corps have a much shorter distance to their forward operations bases than the Indian forces, Pakistan is a thin country, while this does create strategic depth issues, It also gives mobility advantages. Forces stationed at Baluchistan can be at the Indian border within the day if needed, the Pakistani doctrine actually banks on this providing them numerical parity or even superiority at the start of a conventional conflict.

Lastly, it comes down to intelligence gathering and pre-planning, if the enemy has attacked and you’re still in your cantonments you might as well have lost already, but that’s not how things work. India and Pakistan host massive militaries, some of the largest in the world, you don’t simply attack the other without getting noticed, there’s a massive pre-indication of a war every time these two countries fight or get close to it, and forces are already rushing or present at the border due to these inclinations.

I know, right now the effort needed to upgrade them is better spent producing new Block 3s. But once the production stops, upgrading them would be a no brainer imo. Between Block 1 and 3 they use the same engine and there aren't any major structural changes. Mostly just avionics. It should be pretty doable.
There are definitely some structural changes that would require extensive modifications, you’re forgetting that the FBW system has changed, the wiring for the new hardpoints, entirely new electronics, wiring (MAWS and onboard EW) and piping/wiring for the radar up front, composite materials, wing strengthening, the list goes on. We’re not sure when the block 3 production stops, if at all, in the near future, maybe they’re still being produced by the time block 1s run out of engine and airframe life, what then? Do they stop and upgrade these or keep making more? And If god wills, maybe by then we have enough funds and a larger factory to do both at once? The possibilities are there. Let’s see what happens.
The block 3 may not look like it, but it has a lot of changes. It makes Block 1 to block 2 look like a mere facelift.
 
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@iLION12345_1

I think something like this could be an interesting application from a CAS standpoint.


Basically, as the PAF gradually moves towards more J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3s, I think there's an opportunity to repurpose the Block-1s into a more CAS-type platform. I don't know how much more the Block-I can handle from an electronics standpoint, but adding a low-powered, air-cooled AESA radar, HMD/S and targeting pod can unlock a few things. Namely, we could deploy AGMs like the AAHAN above and pair with outside-the-cockpit cueing.

This could basically become our Jaguar in the sense of providing precision anti-armor/vehicle capability. We could even go a step further and try making a Sensor-Fuzed Weapon-type system (e.g., pair small loitering munitions into a stand-off range dispenser, like GB500).

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1. I'm surprised no one has posted pics of the biggest loitering munition from ideas. Integrated dynamics presented a Target drone that could carry 4 micro munitions , as well as a Loitering munition variant of that same target drone which basically utilized a 20lbs warhead. Now before retards start going range range range , the range is 100km and warhead size is 20lb/9kg.
IMG_20221115_152411_665.jpg

IMG_20221115_152627_577.jpg

IMG_20221115_152128_576.jpg


2.The micro munition pic that you posted was also taken by me
 
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