Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[PakFactor]

AK-II will proceed at its own pace. It is a separate program, VT-4 is a seperate acquisation.
With respect to the question of the acquisition of VT-4 as to block approach like JF-17, I can't comment as to what the future holds, but as of yet the Platform will be more or less the same with very minor additions-unless anything revolutionary comes into play-The main emphasis is on Less diversity of platforms in order to maintain the logistical support necessary for operational efficiency. That's how the approach is shaping up.

P.S In my personal opinion-I wish The Turks could have matured the Altay and pressed into Production by the time this tender was shaping up. But have no doubt the VT-4 is a beast with an exceptional situational awarensss and a deadly armoured punch.

My main concern is the survivability and amour can it survive modern ATGMs allowing it and the crew to fight another day? Is it on M1A1 1st armor level?

 

[Ark_Angel]

My main concern is the survivability and amour can it survive modern ATGMs allowing it and the crew to fight another day? Is it on M1A1 1st armor level?

VT-4s armour satisfied all and sundry in the trails. It's one of the best that we have seen. But then again the Race of Armour Protection and Anti Armour Systems keeps on evolving.

 

[HRK]

Type-85 is second generation tank based on second generation Chinese Type-80 tank Chassis which itself was based on Type-79 and Type-79 is the further evolution of Type-69 tank of China, as far as commonality is concern Type-59 and Type-69 share 50%-60% components while Type-85 share around 10%-15% components of Type-59/69

[NOTE: these figures of commonality of subcomponents are stated based on memory as read about these tanks some years ago currently do not have ready reference to attached it here, so plz check these figures before to quote these figures]

Few day back a question was raised about the commonality of MBT fleet of PA about which I tried to answer with the above quoted post but at that time I did not have source available with me as I read about it at least a decade back, now I found one of the source in my archive [and attaching it below]

Summary of Relevant Part:

- Type 69-II tank shares 50% components with Type-59

- Type 85 tank shares 20% components with Type-59 and 30% components with Type 69-II in
Result: Total commonality of 50% components with Type 59 and Type 69 tanks

- AK/MBT-2000 shares 10% components with Type 59, 15% with Type 69-II and 20% with Type 85
Result: Total commonality of 45% components with Type 59, Type 69 and Type 85 tanks

Source: Jane's Armour and Artillery 2005-2006

 

[PakFactor]

Few day back a question was raised about the commonality of MBT fleet of PA about which I tried to answer with the above quoted post but at that time I did not have source available with me as I read about it at least a decade back, now I found one of the source in my archive [and attaching it below]

Summary of Relevant Part:

- Type 69-II tank shares 50% components with Type-59

- Type 85 tank shares 20% components with Type-59 and 30% components with Type 69-II in
Result: Total commonality of 50% components with Type 59 and Type 69 tanks

- AK/MBT-2000 shares 10% components with Type 59, 15% with Type 69-II and 20% with Type 85
Result: Total commonality of 45% components with Type 59, Type 69 and Type 85 tanks

Source: Jane's Armour and Artillery 2005-2006

View attachment 674375

I remember this article from way back and I’m surprised at your memory. I will be saving this as well and @PanzerKiel might like this as well.

 

[Path-Finder]

HQ-17 and HQ-17A
View attachment 674349View attachment 674350View attachment 674351

I am a bigger advocate of this over Pantsir.

 

[Signalian]

I really hope they will raise a new armoured division instead of giving these to a machanized div.

31 Corps unless the south needs to be beefed up.

 

[Signalian]

AK-II will proceed at its own pace. It is a separate program, VT-4 is a seperate acquisation.

That is a relief, HITs production line shouldn't get rusty.

 

[SQ8]

AK-II will proceed at its own pace. It is a separate program, VT-4 is a seperate acquisation.
With respect to the question of the acquisition of VT-4 as to block approach like JF-17, I can't comment as to what the future holds, but as of yet the Platform will be more or less the same with very minor additions-unless anything revolutionary comes into play-The main emphasis is on Less diversity of platforms in order to maintain the logistical support necessary for operational efficiency. That's how the approach is shaping up.

P.S In my personal opinion-I wish The Turks could have matured the Altay and pressed into Production by the time this tender was shaping up. But have no doubt the VT-4 is a beast with an exceptional situational awarensss and a deadly armoured punch.

A collective Namaz-e-Hajat to continue our primary enemy’s complete ignorance and/or failure of that concept.

 

[PakFactor]

yes, according to video posted by @waz it has the ability to cause the incoming projectiles to explode some distance away from itself
360 degrees active prtection

Can’t always rely on that system as high speed projectiles can delete the APS ammo — how good is it without APS.

 

[Raja Porus]

31 Corps unless the south needs to be beefed up.

Our punjab region already has alot of strength on its behalf including two strike corps. But our southern command will face guge odds against the indian south western command. There is only one corps with some indp armd brigades in sindh which may prove to be in sufficient in a very tankable region

 

[Beast]

P.S In my personal opinion-I wish The Turks could have matured the Altay and pressed into Production by the time this tender was shaping up. But have no doubt the VT-4 is a beast with an exceptional situational awarensss and a deadly armoured punch.

The problem is Turkish could not solve the problem of power pack. German refuse to sell them the engine. The same problem plague Chinese tank sales market before the VT-4 come into picture.

Plus the altay tank is too heavy for Pakistan as they do not use autoloader which forces extra crew and result hefty weight of 65tons. The tank also cost a staggering USD 13.5 million a piece which is definitely out of budget for PA if equipped in large number.

PA has factor in a lot of consideration before decide on VT-4.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

My argument still stands. Will the conflict escalate to the point where India and Pakistan will engage in major battles of attrition without breaching the nuclear threshold? I fully agree the calculations you are making, but will that stage ever arrive when those calculations will be applied? If it ever arrive, perhaps our armor will fight over contaminated battlefield and the nuke things had gone all lose till then; a situation which represents worst nightmare of India and Pakistan and will be avoided at all cost not by India and Pakistan only but also by international community.

Last time India and Pakistan fought with armor was 50 years ago. Last time Pakistan's armor was pushed to limits was 55 years ago. Haven't the warfare has changed a lot in past half century?

Ever since, Pakistan and India has faced several security crisis. Brasstacks (1986), Kashmir compound (1990), Kargil (1999), Twin crisis (2001-02), Mumbai attacks (2009) and Pulwama (2019), on all these occasions major moabilization took place but still the armored forces didn't smoke in anger. Reason, Nuclear Deterrent!
Its worth noting that India scrapped Sundarji Doctrine citing same reasons. i.e. fighting major wars of attritions against a nuclear weapon state is strategically and politically not feasible.

I myself believe, all those 'mass territorial capturing objectives' which symbolize the thought process of both Indian and Pakistani high military command alike, is the thing of past now. I don't see any such armored thrust by either side where it will feel necessary to consistently feed its armored forces to keep up the momentum by filling up the combat losses. There is good reason we have developed and employed tactical nuclear weapons. Objective being, never let India expand conflict to such a scale where it could exploit its numerical superiority against Pakistan to its maximum capacity.

As weeks, months and perhaps years pass the deterrence value of Nuclear weapons will invariably diminish. The kicker is conventional weapons! Nucs for Pakistan were a weapon of desperation but as that vacuum fills, so goes the desire/recklessness/impetus to use them. And yes! It means wars inside of nuclear threshold... put more aptly Nucs will become more or less tusks on an elephant... something to flaunt or parade!
We can already see that in China, India standoff... no one can talk nuclear much less threaten, it will mean utter annihilation of both(definitely India) and yes that mean even as Chinese troops march deep inside Indian territory or vice-versa.

As the nuclear posturing stands at the moment it is very much a Mexican standoff and no one really wants another one in... The instability in this matrix lies exactly where conventional balance is heavily tilted, such as; North Korea. The hermit kingdom threatens and perhaps presents the only state currently willing to use nucs in response to a conventional attack and that too for Japan and U.S. and not really South Korea, distance and conventional disparity being the kickers here.

We must understand that all of these political shenanigans and gimmickry lasts only as long as there are humans and life on this planet and these weapons have no utility in a political resolution. In fact it is failure of politics and humanity that these weapons find themselves among those willing to use them. I don't think humanity has really digested or even understood their first-time application. We certainly haven't laid out the ramifications on their projected use.

Back to the topic... with Pakistan finding solutions to conventional military imbalance with India, as with the induction of VT-4 and in numbers, down the line... with cheaper alternatives becoming available to weapon systems considered strategic not too long ago and as technological leaps abound, a conventional war is becoming more likely outcome. With geopolitical situation changing in the neighborhood and India not only on the receiving end but for once now watching it's back... instead of Pakistan... a power vacuum is emerging... something India will be hard pressed to emerge out off or get slaughtered trying.

 

[Yasser76]

Our punjab region already has alot of strength on its behalf including two strike corps. But our southern command will face guge odds against the indian south western command. There is only one corps with some indp armd brigades in sindh which may prove to be in sufficient in a very tankable region

Well, very far south things are not good for tanks at all, it's basically marshes.

Also above that area, if one studies a map, I cannot see any main targets for any Indian advance. What would be the objective? It's practically all desert our side, if India wants to capture Pak territory for any post war negotiation is will be valueless compared to Punjab.

For every 1 square mile of Punjab we would happily forsake 3 square miles of Thar desert, hence this is where the battle will be. If they want to cut Pakistan in half they will not be able to do it via hundreds of miles of desert and then what?

 

[The Accountant]

Our punjab region already has alot of strength on its behalf including two strike corps. But our southern command will face guge odds against the indian south western command. There is only one corps with some indp armd brigades in sindh which may prove to be in sufficient in a very tankable region

Here the key is the desert and the barren lands. In punjab the distance between population centers and and border is very thin. Once you crossed the border it will be really difficult to stop the enemy. However, in Sindh there is very thin population so we will have more time to respond in case of Sindh then Punjab plus the desert area is wide open where to identify enemy's armored thrust is relatively easy.

Although I dont have the military background but I feel in Sindh the correct strategy should be to use armed drones, CAS aircraft (like K-8) and precision strike weapons to stop the enemy. It is more cost efficient and effective way to cover large area. However the quantity of armed drones and other weapons should be sufficient enough to cover the whole border (including surveillance) and then to take on against 100 plus tanks at any side of Indian border within a notice of few hours.

 

[Ark_Angel]

The problem is Turkish could not solve the problem of power pack. German refuse to sell them the engine. The same problem plague Chinese tank sales market before the VT-4 come into picture.

Plus the altay tank is too heavy for Pakistan as they do not use autoloader which forces extra crew and result hefty weight of 65tons. The tank also cost a staggering USD 13.5 million a piece which is definitely out of budget for PA if equipped in large number.

PA has factor in a lot of consideration before decide on VT-4.

Yes I know. I have seen VT-4 perform from 2017/18/19/20. I saw how our feed back and recommendations evolved VT-4 into the beast that it is now.
It was just a personal preference , nothing to do with economics or the politics of the power packs and engines.