Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[cabatli_53]

9 AW 129 from Italy, which makes sense because of the commonality to T129:

Turkey To Buy 9 European A129 Attack Helicopters - Defense News




That's exaclty what I said too, I only said that it is doubtful that Turkey can give licence production rights to foreign customers, without the approval of Italy, because at the end it is still an Italian developed helicopter.
Turkey can sale T129 to export customers, but will produce all parts in Turkey, that's why it's a great deal for Turkey.




This is the excerpt that Jigs posted:



Can you explain where it says anything regarding licences for 3rd countries?



The fuselage is bigger to house the new engines, but the design of the helicopter didn't change, only the integrated techs and weapons.
Compare it to the WAH Apache that AW produces, it also has different engines, weapons and techs, but is still only a version of the Apache, not a new helicopter. The advantage that Turkey has, is the licence production and sale rights, that the US would never provide.
It's undeniable a good development for Turkey, but it still is a version of the AW129 and that's why licences to 3rd countries will only possible with Italian approval.

There are somthing that I will always tell but You will never understand cause of some politic and nationalistic reasons with T-129 Atak program. I have posted many source proving what I have told in previous pages but You are already giving me WAH Apache example to explain the T-129 Atak program...

It is true that WAH Apache is the licence built version of Apache helicopters because There is an Apache helicopter that is being produced by USA. All intellectual and property rights of both WAH and Apache helicopters are belongs to USA. Italy can not do, export,give licence anywhere without USA approval.

but T-129 is completely different story than what I have told about WaH Apache above. TAI has many responsibilities for T-129 Atak heicopter as Owner of T-129 Atak program. There is not any other institue in world which will produce the parts of T-129 (TAI workshare) different than TAI. I mean TAI is the sole producer of fuselage for T-129 but Agusta is not for WAH.

That's why TAI shall be the sole source for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter.

Turkey will be responsible for international marketing and sales of the design, and industry sources say several countries are already evaluating the product, including Jordan and Pakistan.
ATAK team outlines progress of Turkey's T129 project, after first flight success

With the Collaboration Agreement signed with AgustaWestland, TAI shall have;

· Intellectual property rights of the new configuration of the helicopter

· Sole sourcing rights in the world for the fuselage, including Final Assembly and Flight Operations

· Sales rights for the whole world excluding Italy and England

TAİ will also hold the copyright of the new helicopters (T-129) while becoming the sole source in the world for the production of their bodies, including final assembly and flight procedures, said the TAİ statement.

http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=7489

According to " Sole source " Words. What does it mean for you ? Agusta is the sole source for WAH Apache helicopters around the world ? No... but TAI is sole responsible institue for producing-exporting all fuselage, ceritication, tests and education for Turkey and the countries locating all around the World excluding Italy and England because Eng. and Italy is the owner orf Agusta-Westland...

I do not suppose you will understand what I have told above but At least, Try to read the official sources I have posted above...

 

[cabatli_53]

Contrary to what you claimed, At present, TAI officials are talking with S. Korean co-workers to share the technology of T-129 for S. Korean attack helicopter development program. If An agreement signs, TAI will share the fuselage technologies(TAI workshare) of T-129 with S. Korea with a satisfying price...

 

[sancho]

There are somthing that I will always tell but You will never understand cause of some politic and nationalistic reasons with T-129 Atak program. I have posted many source proving what I have told in previous pages but You are already giving me WAH Apache example to explain the T-129 Atak program...

It is true that WAH Apache is the licence built version of Apache helicopters because There is an Apache helicopter that is being produced by USA. All intellectual and property rights of both WAH and Apache helicopters are belongs to USA. Italy can not do, export,give licence anywhere without USA approval.

but T-129 is completely different story than what I have told about WaH Apache above. TAI has many responsibilities for T-129 Atak heicopter as Owner of T-129 Atak program. There is not any other institue in world which will produce the parts of T-129 (TAI workshare) different than TAI. I mean TAI is the sole producer of fuselage for T-129 but Agusta is not for WAH.

That's why TAI shall be the sole source for its work share under the ATAK program for all potential future world wide sales of the T129 ATAK Helicopter.

No they are not completely different stories, in fact the technical differences are even pretty similar (new engines, avionics and weapons, but same design). The only real difference is, that the WAH Apache was not meant for exports, but the T129 is, that's why TAI can manufacture parts for exports and AW not.

Please understand that I never denied that TAI is the sole manufacturer of T129, I only said they are not the developer and therefore I doubt they can offer licence production to other nations, without approval of AW/Italy.

Contrary to what you claimed, At present, TAI officials are talking with S. Korean co-workers to share the technology of T-129 for S. Korean attack helicopter development program. If An agreement signs, TAI will share the fuselage technologies(TAI workshare) of T-129 with S. Korea with a satisfying price...

Interesting, can you provide a source?

 

[cabatli_53]

No they are not completely different stories, in fact the technical differences are even pretty similar (new engines, avionics and weapons, but same design). The only real difference is, that the WAH Apache was not meant for exports, but the T129 is, that's why TAI can manufacture parts for exports and AW not.

Both program is different stories in terms of project model and collaboration of both country to create a new one.

Please understand that I never denied that TAI is the sole manufacturer of T129, I only said they are not the developer and therefore I doubt they can offer licence production to other nations, without approval of AW/Italy.

TAI is not only a sole source for its workshare but also Developer institue for T-129 Atak program with Agusta. Wheather T-129 is based on A-129 fuselage but more bigger and longer, or not, At final, The helicopter which will be developed will be the new Attack helicopter of both Agusta and TAI. Licences will be seperated in accordance with their workshares.

January 2009 while the Preliminary Design Review is ongoing. The new dedicated facility, staffed by more than 70 Turkish and AgustaWestland integrated team technicians, comprises an assembly area for the T129 prototypes as well as office space for the T129 team members. The entire facility has been designed to bring together the integrated team into a single location to enable all industry partners to work together in a highly efficient manner.

http://www.agustawestland.com/news/a...-t129-facility

Interesting, can you provide a source?

I will try to find one !!!

 

[cabatli_53]

Gul said Turkey was selling simulators to South Korea, and was willing to sell Turkish Attack and Reconnaissance (ATAK) helicopters to that country.

The ATAK helicopter project was worth 2.5 billion USD, and South Korea was carrying out an investigation regarding the project, Gul said.

Gul also said South Korea was also interested in Apache helicopters.

Gul says Turkey, S.Korea must sign free trade deal this year [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

It is about Korean Light Attack Helicopter development program... If an agreement signs, The institues with its workshare (TAI-Agusta) under the Atak helicopter program, will share money S. Korea paid. It will be same If Agusta-Westland itself will make an agreement with other countries to sell T-129 Atak...

 

[Imran Khan]

sir cabatli_53 any info abut incedent report of T-129 few weeks before . i just wanna know what was happen to that bird.

 

[cabatli_53]

sir cabatli_53 any info abut incedent report of T-129 few weeks before . i just wanna know what was happen to that bird.

I did not hear any official crash report but It is stated by officials that The problem was about loss of power to the tail rotor While flying at an elevation of 4500ft in N. Italy.

The officials are planning to perform remained trials with A-129 CBT helicopter hired from Italian army. Otherwise, Institues will have to wait until 2011 to keep proceeding the program...

 

[cabatli_53]

Before crash of T-129 P-1, The trials was being performed in high and cold mountainy areas...

 

[Imran Khan]

damn it was wrong time until now i think .

 

[cabatli_53]

damn it was wrong time until now i think .

Yes indeed bro. We need hundreds of them at present because PKK is running wild again and We started discovering new rivals or enemies After Greece.

 

[Imran Khan]

Yes indeed bro. We need hundreds of them at present because PKK is running wild again and We started discovering new rivals or enemies After Greece.

turkey can handlle pkk without t-129 also very well. i just wanna see t-129 mass production ASAP and see our bad luck is p-1 got crash damn if its never happen few more months we can got more good news. now i think it will little late for check properly why its got crash.but any way don't you worry

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

turkey can handlle pkk without t-129 also very well. i just wanna see t-129 mass production ASAP and see our bad luck is p-1 got crash damn if its never happen few more months we can got more good news. now i think it will little late for check properly why its got crash.but any way don't you worry

We are naiive to think that Pakistan is in this war for anything other than the ''long haul'' against TTP

similarly, Turkiye has been dealing with PKK for decades. The suicide bombing campaigns of 1980s, when even young girls were forced to carry out suicide bombs in exchange for their families being ‘’spared’’ from PKK.

They operate in very rugged terrain, which extends into Northern Iraq where fighters slip in and outside the not very well marcated borders (similar our situation with Afghanistan).

Turkiye to a large extent has relied on TuAF to handle ground attack missions, though they also do require attack choppers for monitoring and engaging. In conjunction with the UMTAS missile (which is basically as capable as Hellfire IMHO) it is a formidable platform

 

[sancho]

Both program is different stories in terms of project model and collaboration of both country to create a new one.

Why? Boeing gave the base helicopter and assisted in integration of new techs and weapons, so did AW now on T129. As I said the difference is not the uprgade of the helicopter, but the export approval that the US would never provide to a foreign customer.

TAI is not only a sole source for its workshare but also Developer institue for T-129 Atak program with Agusta. Wheather T-129 is based on A-129 fuselage but more bigger and longer, or not, At final, The helicopter which will be developed will be the new Attack helicopter of both Agusta and TAI. Licences will be seperated in accordance with their workshares.

See, that is the point where we have different opinions, because I don't see the T129 as a completely new helicopter, it is just an upgraded AW129. If AW had funded it alone, there would be no discussion about it right? TAI just joind with funds and it's workshare to upgrade it, but that doesn't make it a new helicopter, or an equal development partner.
However, feel free to disagree, everyone can have it's own opinion right?

It is about Korean Light Attack Helicopter development program... If an agreement signs, The institues with its workshare (TAI-Agusta) under the Atak helicopter program, will share money S. Korea paid. It will be same If Agusta-Westland itself will make an agreement with other countries to sell T-129 Atak...

The source says only that T129 could be sold to S. Korea, but nothing about providing workshares, or anything like that. It's not even mentioned how many helicopters they want right?

 

[cabatli_53]

Why? Boeing gave the base helicopter and assisted in integration of new techs and weapons, so did AW now on T129. As I said the difference is not the uprgade of the helicopter, but the export approval that the US would never provide to a foreign customer.

If WAH Apache and Atak programs are same in terms of collaboration of institues and Only export policies make the differences, Would you please show me the Agusta Westland's emblem in Boeing official webpage as Owner of WAH version ? You can see TAI in Agusta's webpage because T-129 is being owned by both TAI and Agusta and Licence rights of this new copter belongs to both Agusta and TAI forever. After TAI passed to serial production phase, There won't be any attack helicopter called A-129 in brends in Italy as well because Both institue will export T-129 Atak for international markets.

but AH-64 is on export markets under the name of Boeing.

See, that is the point where we have different opinions, because I don't see the T129 as a completely new helicopter, it is just an upgraded AW129. If AW had funded it alone, there would be no discussion about it right? TAI just joind with funds and it's workshare to upgrade it, but that doesn't make it a new helicopter, or an equal development partner.
However, feel free to disagree, everyone can have it's own opinion right?

Whether T-129 is an upgraded version of A-129 with more bigger fuselage or not, That's not the real point of mine because At final, The helicopter developed by those team will be OWNED by both TAI and Agusta. Both institue is performing its mission charged by agreements they have signed so We call it like equal development partners...

The source says only that T129 could be sold to S. Korea, but nothing about providing workshares, or anything like that. It's not even mentioned how many helicopters they want right?

Yes, Turkish President was in S. Korea to talk about cooperation issues about T-129 as an equal partner of T-129 with Italy... I accept that The source is a littile bit poor but I told you what It is introduced about likely T-129 cooperation between S. Korean by safe defence magazines...

 

[rbaxter]

Thank you for this comprehensive posting... btw does anyone know if/when Turkey will buy T129?