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Pakistan Army must wake up and smell the coffee.

U kno what i think...they will never truly leave Afghanistan. They have already erected massive forward bases and in all cognizance it will be used as a Proxy buffer for maintaining a power projection over the south Asian region.

U are absolutely right ..cuz they ain't leaving....they have plan ...exactly what u depicted above.....and we r very happi to have great fun with US in very near future in the battlefield.....Insha-Allah....:)
 
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Pakistan Armed forces need to boost air power as a key component along with acquistion of submarines. Night vision capabilites need to also be expanded to all arms of all services. US will not leave Afghanistan since they need a base next to Iran, China and Russia. No more money should be wasted on buying US sanction prone weaponry. Pakistan's interest should come first. Production of cruise missiles needs to be accelerated since they will be a major punch is any future conflicts.

We should also kick out or destroy an remaining hiding terrorists even if they are in some remote places. There should not be any excuse for anyone to point a finger @ Pakistan.
 
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Pakistan Armed forces need to boost air power as a key component along with acquistion of submarines. Night vision capabilites need to also be expanded to all arms of all services. US will not leave Afghanistan since they need a base next to Iran, China and Russia. No more money should be wasted on buying US sanction prone weaponry. Pakistan's interest should come first. Production of cruise missiles needs to be accelerated since they will be a major punch is any future conflicts.

We should also kick out or destroy an remaining hiding terrorists even if they are in some remote places. There should not be any excuse for anyone to point a finger @ Pakistan.

Just one question: Where are you going to get the money to do all that? Your best bet is to join China as their southern most province, Southern Xinjiang. If you think about it, joining China would be a masterstroke for Pakistan. They might even let you keep your religion, under Party control and leadership, of course.
 
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there is forward msg being passed
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horn na bajayeen..........................................fooj soo rahi hai...

it used to be horn na bajayeen..........................qoom soo rahi hai...
 
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Just one question: Where are you going to get the money to do all that? Your best bet is to join China as their southern most province, Southern Xinjiang. If you think about it, joining China would be a masterstroke for Pakistan. They might even let you keep your religion, under Party control and leadership, of course.

We will also print more paper money like the US. Also I would say that US should not really worry about how we are going to come up with the funds, US needs to worry about the sinking US economy and reaching the debt ceiling.

Pakistan has a GDP of $180 billion and you probably stuck on the few billions of US aid, US can stop the aid and we slap freight on NATO trucks to make up for the aid, right now NATO trucks do not pay frieght, Freeloaders.

Economy of Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Well, I don't know how people measure 'relevance' and 'strength', but from every measure I can think of, America still reigns supreme.
Develepero



The measure of relevance I think most all of us can agree is meaningful, is the degree to which people are looking to the US for any kind of answers - and here I would say that US has lost relevance to people of the world.

In todays age and ideology---islam is not the rallying call to get the group together and move in one direction as a force---but it is the call of nationalism that holds the strings for a successful movement to guide the nation in the right direction.

But the Pakistan army is wedded to this ideology of Islamism -- and Islamism is to violence and terrorism in general, mother's milk. The change must begin with the Pakistan army being purged of Islamists and Islamist ideology and the Jamatis must be brought to justice, entirely too many Jamaatis have not gone over to the ranks of the disappeared and this must be remedied at the soonest.

So priority number one has to be the killing off, of the Islamists, Jamaatis or whatever label you wish to call them. This radical surgery, to get rid of the cancer of Islamism is necessary as the first step towards the rehabilitation of Pakistan as a nation state -- and we don't really need the US for this do we - let the US go her own way, our way will not intersect with the US for a long long time to come, if at all.
 
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Also not a bit overestimating the United States, the United States is almost the same serious internal problems, and his strengths such as innovation. hope we can some patience, you can see more innovation in China in the coming years. because our technology has a long accumulation It is time some results.
 
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P.S. Yes, I agree. We have two severe threats: the Islamist threat within our society and the American threat outside. And, yes, compared to those threats, India is a distant third.


You are right but these Islamist people you mentioned are RAW, Mossad and CIA trained people.

This bloody Govt' has completely failed and things are even getting more worst day by day. No electricity no water no food Pak army they should do something about this why are they quite. There is no security CIA agents are coming and going out of Pakistan and BW is roaming where ever they want to roam and do what ever they want to do, Pakistan security has been breached more than 100 times still the army is quite and this corrupt and evil Govt. continues to take loan in the name of Pakistan for themselves and they keep on doing massive corruption on daily bases. Nawaz Sharif is waiting for his turn to do corruption MQM and ANP have completely destroyed Karachi. What is Pak army doing why aren't they saving Pakistan now, where now things are 1000 times worst than past times. ??????????????????? Please save Pakistan Pak Army.
 
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VIEW: Internal discourse in the army —Brigadier Mehboob Qadir


No one bothered to pause and consider that Pakistan neither had the political, economic nor technological depth for its Afghanistan venture. The result has been a massive muddle in Afghanistan and a thoroughly ravaged Pakistan.


Raymond Davis and the Abbottabad raid may be hideous Siamese twins but perhaps they were overdue; not for the horrible way they killed but the way they demolished our self-esteem in a matter of three plus 40 minutes both put together. Our official reaction has been at best halting and less than resolute.

This was so because, for a long time, we have adopted a posture of bluff and bluster, overblowing our offensive and defensive capabilities, a mix of actual and virtual nuclear weapons and missile programmes and the claim of a superior and hard hitting air force. Fortunately, the Navy has not added to this chorus. That is a small comfort as our seashores have also become vulnerable in many ways. Into this general environment of tentativeness, picture our fledgling national leadership that has yet to get a grip on governance, foreign policy and the articulation of national power.

The mother root of this ongoing malaise has mainly been twofold. One, the total absence of a comprehensive national vision, followed by repeated attempts by the army (military takeovers) to monopolise state power and foreign policy. The result is a barren political landscape and tragic loss of national direction.

National vision and the question of ensuing national direction is a function of an energetic national leadership that is thrown up only by the votes of the people. Until then, what needs to be done is to free it from the so-called vigil of the military and reorient the armed forces towards their primary task, which is to defend the country’s geographical frontiers.

The Pakistan Army showed remarkable grit, determination and commitment in eliminating militants from Swat/Malakand and South Waziristan. It also performed commendably during natural disasters. Civic duties notwithstanding, military takeovers have invariably been the most devastating and regressive in their consequences for the country. Our dismal national state of affairs is a result of recurring military rule and intervening wobbly civil administrations that kept looking over their shoulders towards the GHQ.

The military is not a hermetically sealed alien, unaffected by what afflicts the country. The bleak national canvas has affected the minds of the rank and file imperceptibly. Their compelling and sharpened sense of threat to the country is baffled at their collective inability to fully deflect the same despite nuclear capability. This has given birth to a great informal internal discourse within the military and the hum appears to have increased considerably after the defining Abbottabad raid. A strategic opportunity seems to have arisen out of the debris of the Blackhawk in Abbottabad for objective military introspection and corrective action.

There are four major notions that, in my assessment, need to be addressed and rationalised if we are looking forward to a professional and hard hitting military in Pakistan.

First comes the clarity and the will to submit to the parameters of the opportunities and limitations that are outlined by the constitution for the armed forces. The army has had its forays into and out of the constitution a number of times. Each time, both have ended up badly bruised and messier than before. The result had been a serious dysfunction in the political, administrative and social architecture of the country. The entire national construct is leaning awkwardly and quite perilously over the military. The national centre of gravity has shifted into the armed forces, which is an extremely narrow and delicately poised base. The army has become the custodian of patriotism, ideology and security of Pakistan. It has also come to be the arbiter of its political dispensation and strategic direction of foreign policy. The armed forces must debate themselves out of this minefield under their own well-considered determination.

Second comes the Pakistan military’s professionalism, which was seriously jeopardised by the expedient induction of jihadist notions and overplayed religious zealotry into its training handbooks. Both these notions are the strengths of a Muslim army but not at the cost of professionalism and battlefield realism. This political expediency of military rulers to manufacture legitimacy among their ‘home constituency’ soon transformed into an art form in the hands of incompetent commanders. This helped them create false bravado and a sense of divine invincibility. The result has been successive military debacles when pitched against a determined and well-trained adversary. This flawed courtship with faith produced bitter fruits of its own. While it began to embed emotional Islam into military culture at the cost of hard professionalism, it also exposed the rank and file to various shades and influences of militant dogmas. On the other hand, this patronage of violent religious streams not only caused public proliferation of jihadi and sectarian militancy but also severely polarised society on sectarian and communal lines. No good can ever come out of this nest of hornets. It is even more necessary now than ever before to regain a truly national and professional character of the military.

Third is the ever-present bogey of so-called ‘strategic depth’ that was so imprudently floated in the late 1980s. The timing was simply inopportune as Pakistan was fast sliding off the international process of shaping the future of Afghanistan post-Soviet withdrawal. In hindsight, it appears the faulty hypothesis was perhaps a smokescreen for continued leverage in affairs beyond our western borders. No one bothered to pause and consider that Pakistan neither had the political, economic nor technological depth for such a venture. The result has been a massive muddle in Afghanistan and a thoroughly ravaged Pakistan. The other downside of this wild shot has been the label of regional manipulation slapped on Pakistan’s back. This disabling constraint invariably stumps us from playing a genuine role in helping stabilise that unfortunate country. The debilitating notion of strategic depth and the destructive urge to unilaterally shape the regional environment must be ejected out of military calculations.

Fourth is that the military threat from India has been the central theme of all defensive formulations in Pakistan. What started off as preparation to meet possible Indian aggression gradually transformed into an existential, ideological and holy struggle to defeat an enemy who was disproportionately stronger. This escalating romance with war is full of military pitfalls and capability gaps. More dangerously, it seems to factor into strategic calculus dicey faith-based resilience. Performance in war is a reflection of hard training, appropriate weaponry and capable leadership; not romantic notions or far-fetched fancies. Military history shows that fancies have never been the currency for victory. Thus, a review of the possible operational environment ipso facto calls for a dispassionate and realistic reassessment of the threat India poses to Pakistan’s territorial space and what should be done to deter the same to preserve our freedom. A need emerges to clearly visualise the parameters of defence of our country, our resources and options and how we want to engage ourselves with the region and globally, and then sit down to painstakingly chisel a doable military strategy. Fanciful notions of wide and deep strategic sweeps, spectacular conquests and invincibility are misleading and must be shunned. We need to know what we can really achieve and how best to do that.

This is easier said than done. A selective mindset exists that looks for arguments to support such military sentiments. It requires razor sharp intellect and military leadership of a superior kind that can bring about such a dramatic change in the military’s worldview and, more importantly, view of itself. For Pakistan to realise its proper potential and engage with other nations in a constructive and helpful manner, it is necessary that we encourage the signs of a paradigm change within the thinking of the military as a major prelude to evolving a new national paradigm.

The writer is a retired brigadier of the Pakistan Army. He can be reached at clay.potter@hotmail.com
 
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Thank you fatman, Sparkling Cresent and many many others -- I encourage all to read this important article and to consider -- the most important thing about this article is that like many others, it comes from thinking and concerned people within the armed forces -- friends please take note of the evolving discussion, a discussion which you as observers must agree, is not just overdue, that the fact that these voices are emerging and being allowed to emerge from within the armed forces, is most significant -- one immediate idea that should be heaped in to the trash bin is the idea of some "conservative" and "Liberal" divide in Pakistani thinking - reality is that the dichotomy is broken down along the 4 items highlighted by the Brigadier.

You decide for yourself the merits of the 4 items - and as you decide, let your criteria be a strong, vibrant, and JUST Pakistan -- you will see that there is no need for reactionary responses - there is a need for revival, reconstruction, for "tameer" -- and no where more than in the Fauj, it's vision of itself and it's role in a JUST and PROSPEROUS Pakistan, at peace at home and with ALL neighbors.
 
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First comes the clarity and the will to submit to the parameters of the opportunities and limitations that are outlined by the constitution for the armed forces. The army has had its forays into and out of the constitution a number of times.

Second comes the Pakistan military’s professionalism, which was seriously jeopardised by the expedient induction of jihadist notions and overplayed religious zealotry into its training handbooks.

Third is the ever-present bogey of so-called ‘strategic depth’ that was so imprudently floated in the late 1980s. The timing was simply inopportune as Pakistan was fast sliding off the international process of shaping the future of Afghanistan post-Soviet withdrawal. In hindsight, it appears the faulty hypothesis was perhaps a smokescreen for continued leverage in affairs beyond our western borders. No one bothered to pause and consider that Pakistan neither had the political, economic nor technological depth for such a venture.

Fourth is that the military threat from India has been the central theme of all defensive formulations in Pakistan. What started off as preparation to meet possible Indian aggression gradually transformed into an existential, ideological and holy struggle to defeat an enemy who was disproportionately stronger. This escalating romance with war is full of military pitfalls and capability gaps.

The above seems to be the best analysis of the Pakistan Army that I have come across in a long long time. Introspection is the key to adaptation and in some cases transformation.
 
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The issue of captive Kashmir, to my thinking, is something that Indian authorities realize they must have resolution to, in order to transition to a genuinely global player with credibility, a power that is mature -- and believe it or not, Pakistan needs India to make this transition because Pakistan itself is ready for a similar transition -- but anyway, getting back to the "enemy" business -- Pakistan and India are adversaries and rivals, they are not ENEMIES -- Pakistan's enemies are the Islamist insurgents and their political enablers. Though some, I do realize, will be slow to coming to that realization, and others, it will just leave behind.


Muse

Truly summed up in the last line, the greatest threat to Pakistan is from extremism, rather than anyone else. In forums here itself, about a year and half back when I had last posted, we had doggedly discussed the topic of OBL in Pakistan which had been decried as all propaganda of Indian Int. Services and unfortunately not looked into seriously by Pakistani services either out of sheer adamancy, misplaced sense of pride or complicity, thus resulting in an embarassing fallout and further confirmation of complicity of certain members of the Pakistani Security set up in facilitating the presence of the said character for over 7 years in their own backyard. Today, the GoP and specifically the Security apparatus is looked at with suspicion, and to a lot of extent rightly so, by the world.
As for Kashmir, the Indian policy of the mid 80s to work towards isolation of Pakistan is working fine. Its slow, its uncertain, but it is sure; Pakistan is increasingly bogged down due to its own policy of giving support to fundamentallistic elements, and as a result is slowly moving towards self destruction of its social fabric and increased social unrest, a combination which may prove fatal to Pakistan if not checked.
Kashmir solution is going to be very easy. A tied down Pakistan does not have the time nor inclination to give that much support to elements within Kashmir as they previously had, nor can they channel Afghan resources into the valley to bolster the movement there. Today the climate in kashmir valley is such that the average Kashmiri militant is least interested in engaging with the Indian forces, stays low and leads a life of 'respect' by ruling roost over the local population at the barrel of the gun. The life exectancy of these elements is down to a few months from a peak of few years. Majority of the movement is hijacked now by elements who are undesirable in a society and wanted for their crimes to local population by the local population and the only way for them to survive is to exfilterate, train and then may be if they are lucky, stay on in pakistani side, or if they are forced out by the local tanzeem commanders from their launch pad, hope to stay undetected during infilteration enough to reach a major population center, merge there and stay put low.
The level of violence is down in valley and the day Indian government realises that Article 370 needs to go, the economic situation will drastically change in valley ...... the solution is still a bit off but its there
 
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Muse,

What are you trying to do? Asking pakistani boys to think with a clear and un-obstructed mind and make a coherent assessment of a terrible situation.

Would that not be tantamount to an oximoron!

You are asking for a very hard, truthful and in depth analysis of the situation----and you know very well---that these guys donot have the capacity and ability to do that. They cannot tell the truth to themselves even in their sleep---how can you ask them to be truthful in the daylight.
 
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MK

Yes, it will be hard but I think they can do it, they have ti do it, if Pakistan is to transition -- For the most part these guys are very young and very passionate, both double edged qualities, but coming to grips with such an emotive issue, in full public glare, is well, difficult but all they have to do is read - just read and think for yourself, trust their own very little experience. I think we can have faith in them - deer ayad duurst ayad
 
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