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Pakistan Army must wake up and smell the coffee.

Develepero:

They are themselves destroyed - Look at what they have done to the US and her standing in the world -- Just look at how gigantic and devastating has been their failure, they have gone from American Century to being irrelevant, they are reduced to offering what are in effect, bribes (aid).

I had mentioned the upcoming speech of Obama -- please do pay attention to it and maybe we can discuss it with regard to whether the US is a relevant power or not and if it is what makes it relevant -- and if it isn't why not -- Hint: we discussed how the US has a "STRUCTURAL" problem -- now if the speech highlights this problem, how, even if she offers billions of Dollars in bribes, can the US be relevant -- just as an example, look at degree with which we examine critically every aspect we become aware of, with regard to the policies of the Pakistan state, now just compare if the US types can do that with regard to their policies -- and if they can't , how are they relevant??
 
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there is no islamist threat, there is only american threat, there is no osama bin laden there is only american propaganda at work, the imaginary islamists are already a creation of american minds and our deceptive media,

there were no islamists marching from bajour to islamabad, that was only a media hoax to create the public opinion, there are no islamist suicide bombers, this is cia at work

america is funding our media to spread misinformation, the islamists exist in our imaginary minds, those islamists are only the tribal people who consider the weapons as their jewellery, they are made the hypothetical islamists, aur army and isi knows about it too

those tribsmen and hypothetical islamists resisted when army guys opened fire on their houses, these tribesmen pakistanis got killed, and were these men opened fire, they became TTP and islmists

if there was islamists threat, how did it worked before 9/11, why the same guys were not demanding shariah and etc for 60 yrs and sprawled up just when america needed them to for WOT??
 
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Develepero:

They are themselves destroyed - Look at what they have done to the US and her standing in the world -- Just look at how gigantic and devastating has been their failure, they have gone from American Century to being irrelevant, they are reduced to offering what are in effect, bribes (aid).

I had mentioned the upcoming speech of Obama -- please do pay attention to it and maybe we can discuss it with regard to whether the US is a relevant power or not and if it is what makes it relevant -- and if it isn't why not -- Hint: we discussed how the US has a "STRUCTURAL" problem -- now if the speech highlights this problem, how, even if she offers billions of Dollars in bribes, can the US be relevant -- just as an example, look at degree with which we examine critically every aspect we become aware of, with regard to the policies of the Pakistan state, now just compare if the US types can do that with regard to their policies -- and if they can't , how are they relevant??

Well, I don't know how people measure 'relevance' and 'strength', but from every measure I can think of, America still reigns supreme.

Militarily, they are still far, far ahead of anyone else.
Culturally, Hollywood dominates the globe.
Financially, rumors of their death have been exaggerated. I will consider China to be a financial giant once their domestic consumption ramps up to an appreciable level and they are less reliant on exports.
Diplomatically, the US still runs the show: when push comes to shove, the western world still closes ranks around the US as their leader.
In science, technology and innovation, they are still the leader.

And, quite frankly, if the US put their mind to it, they could resurrect manufacturing within the US and be back in the game. So, I don't think the US domination is in serious decline. As for your comment about billions in bribes, that's chump change for the US. And far preferable to actual military confrontation. Afghanistan and Iraq are enough for now.
 
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Well most of the people might thing it's over but i don't see U.S/NATO getting out of afghanistan in next 2 to 3 years ,Pakistan can still do some serious damage to these fake pretenders but for that our army generals need to wake the f** up if u don't wish u die then play golf with the ladies..I say next attack on Pakistani sovereignty should be the deal lane!!!!!!1
 
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Well most of the people might thing it's over but i don't see U.S/NATO getting out of afghanistan in next 2 to 3 years ,Pakistan can still do some serious damage to these fake pretenders but for that our army generals need to wake the f** up if u don't wish u die then play golf with the ladies..I say next attack on Pakistani sovereignty should be the deal lane!!!!!!1
U kno what i think...they will never truly leave Afghanistan. They have already erected massive forward bases and in all cognizance it will be used as a Proxy buffer for maintaining a power projection over the south Asian region.
 
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This must rank amongst the threads with the most sane and readable posts.

Ever since Abbotabad and sometimes before I have read comments here and on other forums whose theme has been on what the Army / ISI / GOP must do or not do.

All three are reflections of Pak society. They will often replicate or do what an average Pakistani does or wants.

What I am curious to know is what are the people of Pakistan doing ? Why wait for some unknown messiah to come & lead the nation from darkness ?

Why is there no movement to demand the change necessary to turn things around ? A nation of sheep ( no offence meant please ) led by ' lions' who sacrifice the sheep without even a murmur, roaring at the sheep within not at outsiders ?

How long will the army / ISI be told what the nation wants of them. The nation should obviously want them to do their designated job and leave the rest to those meant for it. The PA seems to want to be the bowler, wicket keeper and umpire , maybe the batsman as well..

You may have a dexterous pair of hands , asking them to do the work of the feet does not work .

These to my mind are calls for Pak citizens to take.
 
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achay achay articles likhnay say kuch nahe hota... whole world knows reality about pakistan and every single young bacha of this nation knows the only NUCLEAR POWER with so called damn mighty military ... BUT the most darpook military heads include govt in this world!!!

What we get from past 4 war s ??

What we get from 1971 ?
What we get from Kargil ?
What we get from WOT ?

ALL above policies made by your BEST MILITARY "PAKISTAN" MILITARY GENERALS!

TODAY because of above 4 war (Kashmir) policy (War war and War) we are actually full time WAR (in Urdu)..

Today's Kashmiris are not interested to become part of india BUT KASHMIRI Also know interested to become PART OF PAKISTAN!
Today we already lost Balochistan!
because of this bullshit changed name of NWFP to Khyber pakhtun .. Hazara issue is burning now!

because of this super duper best relation with US (Of OUR MILITARY) we lost 30,000 Pakistanis include our 5,000 of soldiers who died just because of our B***** military general policies!

WHAT WE GET FROM OUR MILITARY POLICY ?? Zardari gilani nawaz or Benazir) n 60 years of history these parties CANT DO ANYTHING without military approval. ESTABLISHMENT IS PAKISTAN ARMY! No one dare to even sell 1 inch of this country territory to anyone without Pakistan army "YES".

Today India is in the position if India raise KAshmir issue (either India will be wrong side but whole world will be on Indian side Why ???)

because your military mess give full favor to India to do whatever you want today! they have money! which we dont have... our Army is damn care about this nation.. Army is still waiting for the day ... when American will leave Afghanistan Army need Taliban govt and will start kick n a*** Indians in Afghanistan ... stil our Army have (maaroo inke aur style objective)

Accept the reality "PAKISTAN is the only country who suffring because of its OWN ARMY" and if u still in denial mode you will see the consequence which you have already seen especially now a days!
 
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Why is there any question of who is our friend or foe? Our enemy is foreign invasion; let it be US military, or terrorists from AQ and Taliban. No matter whom it is, Pakistan is in a dire situation, all basic questions remain same, and how do we take action against both simultaneously? Or more precisely, do we have the will and skill to do that? Do we have enough resources to face consequences in the aftermath? What will happen if Pakistan went to war against NATO forces? Will our arch rival, India try to take advantage of the situation and attack from behind? Is there any deterrent to stop India from taking that course of action? How will China or Russia, which are the other power of the region, respond?

On the other hand, there are more dilemmas, if Pakistani government denies going against NATO forces, what could be the result? Will US increase its attack frequency in Pakistan? If yes, what are going to be the consequences of increased attacks? More casualties! That will further increase unrest within the country, raising more retaliators in process.

Few further very important questions to ask are; what are goals of “war on terror”? Where will it be decided that war on terror has been successful? When will it finish? Each attack where civilians die increases retaliators, for sake of revenge, so how is this “chain reaction” going to finish?

Another thing which needs to be kept in mind is the most used slogan of USA “do more”, so what is Pakistan suppose to do? Keep killing its people to create new retaliators and then kill them to produce more? Is Pakistani Government willing to do that? Should Pakistani people allow that?

Let’s assume for a moment that Pakistan obliges with requirements put forward by USA, what guarantee is there that International community will not base its further dictations on the unrest produced by this chain and require Pakistan to disarm itself, and roll back any military capability? Including nuclear capability also?

Let’s also assume that Pakistan government, under the pressure, abides by the requirements, then what? Do you think that is what Pakistanis want? Do you think those, who have not accepted us as a sovereign country since independence, will let that chance slip? Do you think that Pakistan as a country will have any say for its future, or in world politics ever again? Is that what this country was meant to be? Is that how we were supposed to end up?

For Pakistan it is a lose-lose situation, until we decide for ourselves, for our betterment and our priorities instead of thinking about outsiders, I feel appalled to read articles and columns in newspapers, along with talk shows and chat shows on different channels. It seems that we, as a nation are confused, or let me be more precise; our “think tank”, if you wish to call them that, is confused. There are extreme forgivers and extreme retaliators; it seems that everyone has lost the sense of moderation. Choices which are being provided to the nation are to either accept whatever International community or in reality, US want, or go totally against it. Both in my opinion are wrong approaches.

Pakistan, in its roots is a sovereign country of approx. 180 people with a democratic government. Democracy states that it should be the choice of citizen of a country to decide what is good and what is bad for them? The foreign policy of a country should be directly proportional to what people want. Why is Government not taking consent of the nation? Why is it not doing what is best for Pakistan?

Within all this mess, the ruling elite, it seems intentionally (hopefully not), has forgotten about people of Pakistan, their natural needs, their living requirements, along with internal departments and infrastructure, education, in fact everything. Our country is in a mess right now, there is no electricity 14 to15 hours on average in a day, resulting in industries shutting down, reducing percentage of earning for normal people, and also reducing reserves of state bank, Inflation has hit all times high, prices of day-to-day products are going beyond the buying capacity of normal people. Corruption has sunk to the deepest level, people are being charged for facilities which are not even provided.

If history has taught us anything, it is that survival instinct of humans is very strong, it seems that this is rapidly becoming survival issue for people of Pakistan, and if I might say, it seems that the time for democratic revolution, which everyone is talking about is running out quite fast, it seems that end result for Pakistanis is going to be a bloody revolution, and that revolution will take out all the ruling elite, drag it on the roads and….

People are quickly coming to the conclusion that our country is in danger, from external terrorists or from internal traitors, one thing I know for sure about my nation is, when it comes to Pakistan, there is no second opinion or thought.

I think it is time for Politicians to decide whether they want to maintain their mental and financial slavery or are they going to change their priorities to honour, respect and sovereignty of Pakistan and its people before it is too late for them.

I wish we can go through this time with as little problem as possible, for that we need to involve more global players, ones which are not part of invading alliance, we also need to register our concerns in Global International forums, let it be UN, OIC or any other available, we also need to make it very clear that any invasion in territories of Pakistan from anyone, let it be a country or individual will be retaliated to the best of our powers, and whole world will be responsible for consequences. In a civilized world, sovereignty of a country is protected under UN charter, that’s the basis of United Nations, can cannot be over ruled by any individual resolution.
 
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Well, I don't know how people measure 'relevance' and 'strength', but from every measure I can think of, America still reigns supreme.

Militarily, they are still far, far ahead of anyone else.
Culturally, Hollywood dominates the globe.
Financially, rumors of their death have been exaggerated. I will consider China to be a financial giant once their domestic consumption ramps up to an appreciable level and they are less reliant on exports.
Diplomatically, the US still runs the show: when push comes to shove, the western world still closes ranks around the US as their leader.
In science, technology and innovation, they are still the leader.

And, quite frankly, if the US put their mind to it, they could resurrect manufacturing within the US and be back in the game. So, I don't think the US domination is in serious decline. As for your comment about billions in bribes, that's chump change for the US. And far preferable to actual military confrontation. Afghanistan and Iraq are enough for now.

Agreed.. Only one problem, they have opened too many fronts right now, to financially get back to to its feet, US will need to close down the non-productive avenues, that include foreign wars also, this will reduce their dominance.

Its a sticky situation for USA, either keep the dominant role and stay at the minimum possible sustainability (which is dangerous) or leave the global dominator role and invest in its economy which is deteriorating fast.
 
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Aatish, nice post. I can sense the frustration in your mind. If only the politicians of your country are as patriotic as you are.
I want to clarify one small thing. India is a responsible country. At this hour when Pakistan needs to rebuild its confidence, it is best for India let Pakistan to its own means or help in whatever way possible.

:cheers:
 
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I just hope Islamic Republic of Pakistan doesn't become the Islamic Republic of Iran (of 1979).

That would be a loss-loss situation for the entire West and us......and i hope US realizes that.

Remember how CIA never saw the New Iran coming....and one night changed the entire geo-political map of the Middle-East.
 
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Let us agree that US is the biggest Satan ever and out to destroy Muslims and Islam in general and Pakistan in particular especially our nuclear weapons. No doubt US has committed aggression against the state of Pakistan by violating our borders and likely to do it again.

Once this is settled. At the risk of repeating umpteenth time, I ask all US haters to answer the question: why were half a dozen top Al Quaeda leaders caught in Pakistan? (Another one has been found in Karachi a couple of days ago). Why was Osama (for the conspiracy theorists, at least his 3 wives and children) living bang in the middle of a garrison town in Pakistan for a number of years? Please don’t fudge the issue by referring to the US crimes in Afghanistan or against the Palestinians.

Doesn’t it follow that there is something seriously wrong with Pakistan that terrorists feel safe in our country. Also there must be a support network in place whereby international terrorists can find safe homes and travel in and out of Pakistan. US may be the greatest devil and but this does not justify why we have let Pakistan become a breeding ground for terrorists and no matter where the acts take place, one finds that the perpetrators had one time or another visited Pakistan.

We say that suicide bombers can’t be Muslim as Islam doesn’t allow shedding of innocent blood. Being a Muslim I believe the same myself. But then how do you justify killing of Salman Taseer? Was he ever tried in Sharia court or in any other court of law? Punishment under the Sharia law cannot be applied on hearsay alone, there has to be a proper trial. How come his cold blooded killer was treated as a hero by the Islamic parties and the bigoted media?

Some idiots killed 80 security personnel in Charsadda, pray tell me for what crime? Were any of the victims in any way responsible for the killing of Osama bin laden; especially when most of the so called Islamists believed Osama was never killed in Pakistan?

How long would we continue to deny the truth that a significant section of Pakistani people has come under the influence of the Wahhabis, Takfiris and Salafin? These people have maligned Islam thru their misdirected belief and have brutalized a large segment of Pakistan society.

Let us face it, there is very little Pakistan can do to avenge the wrong done to her dignity. Pakistan cannot fight the US or the NATO. Fight is no longer man versus man but man versus technology and we are at least one hundred years behind the West in this field. Irrespective of the rhetoric of the politicians; fighting US & NATO tantamount to committing national suicide. If we want to avoid a repetition of what happened, shouldn't we try to eliminate this cancer from our midsts?

First and foremost, we should increase our Education and health budget by at least 20 fold. Forget air-conditioning and refrigerators and stop spending on rental power projects, instead invest in schools and hospitals. (But we love TTP who instead blow up schools) Technology is the way forward in the 21st century.

Stop accepting US hand outs and eat grass if we have to, but learn to live within our means. One thing Nawaz Sharif has got right: giving hand is always higher than receiving hand.
 
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Niaz,

The suicide bombers say that the pakistanis are not muslims---so "who is the king and who is not the king---WOULD THE SOUNDS OF THE NIGHTINGALES BE SILENCED FOREVER".

Pakistan has been bragging about capturing all these al qaeda operatives in pakistan---the question does indeed arise---what the heck are these operatives doing in pakistan---why is pakistan a hioding place for them-----why is the civilian population not scared of the state before giving these operative some kind of sanctuary.


Now as for the last two lines in the post---are in total disagreement----that has nothing to do with how a nation is run----but has everything to do with not understanding the gamesmanship at the world level----.

Israel gets all the aid from u s---so why are they not having similiar problems----.

Pakistani men and women need to learn and think like the grown ups that they are----p. The issue here is that the pakistanis don't know what their priorities are----they don't know where their loyalties lie----they don't know what their identity is----they cannot classify to what group they belong to to.

In todays age and ideology---islam is not the rallying call to get the group together and move in one direction as a force---but it is the call of nationalism that holds the strings for a successful movement to guide the natiopn in the right direction.

For Nawz Sharif to say that we don't need foreign aid is a lie----what difference would it make to him---he already got his coffers full----he won't lose any weight due to starvation---even though it would help him---.

Stopping the aid is not the pakistani's solution----pakistan needs to look elsewhere for that----they need to look at their character and approach to a problem to resolve this issue---it the look ionside that they need----it is the look into their souls that is needed---that is where the crux of the problem lies.

Where is america saying to you---I give you money and you become characterless---where has america said that I give you money and you become the corrupt criminals that you are----has there been any instance where america has tied its aid so that you lose you rcharacter and identity----never---ever.

For those of you---bragging about this non sensical issue----just remember the floods of last year---guess what---the floods of this year are coming pretty soon----and I very much doubt they would be any less than they were of last year.

Live in fear my pakistani---live in fear and hate forever---because that is a part of your destiny.
 
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Everyone is talking about how the US violated Pakistan's sovereignty and how to deal with the US.

I ask a very simple question to all the esteemed members of this forum..

Would it have been an issue if Pakistan were complying with US wishes - which ask for one thing straight - Eliminate all terrorists within Pakistan.

Is this unreasonable?

Pakistani authorities (Government/Military) have over a decade tried to obfuscate this simple message by trying to convince themselves and others of "good taliban/bad taliban", 'this network is good/that network is bad''.

In effect Pakistan has tried to selectively eliminate those terrorists which it wanted and tried to keep terrorists safe which they saw as useful or as investments(like the ones which could be useful against India or Haqqani or the likes).

The bottom line to every question can be summed up thus:
Does Pakistan(cumulatively) believe that there should be no terrorism emanating from Pakistan? or Do they still believe in using Jehad as a tool (Differentiating between terrorists and freedom fighters)?

Or is Pakistan make a clean departure in its connections with Jehadists/terrorists?
 
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U kno what i think...they will never truly leave Afghanistan. They have already erected massive forward bases and in all cognizance it will be used as a Proxy buffer for maintaining a power projection over the south Asian region.

Well then i should say all the generals in south Asia need to wake the hell up !!!!!
 
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