Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Blue Marlin]

IMO that as it may, it might be a lost opportunity to not grab this program. Denel's language on the Rooivalk Mk2 suggests the door to partner are open, and in turn, so are the benefits on offer (e.g. ToT). We might assume China and Turkey will provide ToT, but South Africa is promising it in the open and in a very general way (e.g. "set up an attack helicopter industry in the buying country").

indeed it can open an industry but you must ask yourself this. how many will pakistan buy? and how many can it realistically sell? the answer to the first question is about 90 max. as for the second part most of the gcc are going for ah-64e's and upgrades from the 64d to the 64e. who's left? no one. can pakistan afford to have a helicopter industry (financially) possibly?

china can help pakistan with choppers, money and more importantly a huge degree of tot. can south africa help pakistan to the degree of the chinese? no

the way i see it is:

• 15 to 36 ah1-z (depending on how the new zulu's perform)
• 90 z10 (back bone)
• ~fennecs scounting/light attack
• 20 mil-35 border attack/assault

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

indeed it can open an industry but you must ask yourself this. how many will pakistan buy? and how many can it realistically sell? the answer to the first question is about 90 max. as for the second part most of the gcc are going for ah-64e's and upgrades from the 64d to the 64e. who's left? no one. can pakistan afford to have a helicopter industry (financially) possibly?

china can help pakistan with choppers, money and more importantly a huge degree of tot. can south africa help pakistan to the degree of the chinese? no

the way i see it is:

• 15 to 36 ah1-z (depending on how the new zulu's perform)
• 90 z10 (back bone)
• ~fennecs scounting/light attack
• 20 mil-35 border attack/assault

I wouldn't go for the ToT with the aim of having a full fledged industry per se, but I would aim for targeted ToT in key areas - e.g. engine MRO and local manufacturing of dynamic components (e.g. rotors) and spare parts. In this respect, one can independently maintain the Rooivalk and the Super Puma. Moreover, the SA Gov't said it would need to manufacture "about 60" Rooivalk Mk2 to make the program feasible (link).

IIRC the SA Gov't basically had to write the Rooivalk R&D costs down the last time, meaning, the SANDF units absorbed those costs and the Rooivalk Mk2's development costs will be separate. The Rooivalk Mk2's costs would stem from re-warming the production line and procuring/integrating new subsystems and weapons. I don't think Denel will reinvent any wheels in the latter, so the subsystems will likely be COTS. Basically, the overhead may be thin enough for Pakistan to sustain provided it focuses the ToT to what's necessary to fully maintain a fleet.

 

[mikaal hassan]

what is the latest number of helicopters transpot and attack both ? according to manufacturers .

 

[Arsalan]

it is a heavy chopper but an untested one at that. the chinese are most likely working on a more powerful engine to allow the z10 to hold 16 atgm's as opposed to the current 8 it can carry. it just a matter of time. the z10 is perfect for pakistan. price....... china will beat the competition and pakistan hold's a certain prestige as they (pakistan) are using chinese choppers actively in wot. just like how bell were doing back filps when they got the order for pakistans zulu's which aided them in attempting to makes sales elsewhere, an example being in poland and other places. also it servers as an advertisement too.

from what i gathered from game.invade the puma's have an over heating issue hence the purchase of the aw139.
personally i wont even go for it, the design is old and inefficient. personally i would invest in some form of co-producing the aw-139 in pakistan. pakistan easily needs 200 at least spread to the 3 armed services, police, ambulance, vip transport, private purchase etc.........

south africa has a very good defence industry, the a-darter being my favorite weapon from SA.

Hmmm, Your point regarding Z10 do make a lot of sense. PA getting Z10 will be a win for both. I was however talking about Rooivalk as an addition to Z10. Then again, perhaps it was a bit too ambitious of me, operating three different gunships (Zulu, Z10 and Rooivalk) along with the Mi35 do not make much sense.

Let’s see what the Chinese can come up with. The two examples the send here were labeled as a gift but were in fact for evaluation purpose and were put through their paces in WoT. There were a few glitches reported and it is likely that the birds are back in China for modification and upgrades. I hope the Chinese can come up with some solution and then we can induct these in numbers. However I do not really like the idea of AW139 too much either as they are quite expensive. IF we are looking at numbers around 200 (and it can easily go up there if they come for all arms of military and fill in quite a few roles like medium lift, ambulance, SAR, VVIP transport etc) perhaps then it will make some sense. How about Mi17 however? They are reliable and robust, we are good with them and have decent support infrastructure, plus the Chinese are making them now so you know . . . . .
MI17 have slightly better payload but lesser range (which might not be that important in case of Pakistan).

04 APR 2017
View attachment 392715
Russian Helicopters has made its first Mi-171E helicopter delivery to Pakistan
The reconfigurable version of the Mi-171E allows to use it as a transport aircraft and in the VIP configuration



Russian Helicopters has made its first Mi-171E civil multirole helicopter delivery to Pakistan.

Under the terms of the contract, the reconfigurable version of the Mi-171E was manufactured to allow for its use both as a transport aircraft and in the VIP cabin configuration.

As a transport aircraft, the Mi-171E is capable of carrying up to 27 passengers in the jump seats and up to four tons of cargo inside the cargo cabin or on the external sling. In the VIP cabin configuration the helicopter accommodates 13 passengers plus a flight attendant.

Installation of the SAR equipment set, consisting of the LPG-150 winch and the TSL-1600 searchlight, further expands the scope of possible applications of the rotorcraft, according to Russian Helicopters. It is also equipped with an early ground proximity warning system, enhancing flight safety.

The delivery comes as Russian Helicopters, part of state-owned corporation Rostec, claims increasing sales of its range of aircraft. "The number of civil aviation air operators, particularly from South Asia, who place orders with us is growing", - comments Alexander Shcherbinin, deputy CEO for marketing and business development of Russian Helicopters.

Excellent news!!

How many are we getting? Any idea sir?

You mentioned 4 in a previous post, was that for Mi17 or AW139?
I am specifically interested in knowing about Mi17E!! Excellent.

 

[nomi007]

 

[Super Falcon]

Why we are not buying heavy transportation helos like CHINKOOK

 

[Blue Marlin]

Hmmm, Your point regarding Z10 do make a lot of sense. PA getting Z10 will be a win for both. I was however talking about Rooivalk as an addition to Z10. Then again, perhaps it was a bit too ambitious of me, operating three different gunships (Zulu, Z10 and Rooivalk) along with the Mi35 do not make much sense.

Let’s see what the Chinese can come up with. The two examples the send here were labeled as a gift but were in fact for evaluation purpose and were put through their paces in WoT. There were a few glitches reported and it is likely that the birds are back in China for modification and upgrades. I hope the Chinese can come up with some solution and then we can induct these in numbers. However I do not really like the idea of AW139 too much either as they are quite expensive. IF we are looking at numbers around 200 (and it can easily go up there if they come for all arms of military and fill in quite a few roles like medium lift, ambulance, SAR, VVIP transport etc) perhaps then it will make some sense. How about Mi17 however? They are reliable and robust, we are good with them and have decent support infrastructure, plus the Chinese are making them now so you know . . . . .
MI17 have slightly better payload but lesser range (which might not be that important in case of Pakistan).

combining the rooivalk with the z10 and the zulus is a logistical and financial nightmare. id expect the cash strapped pakistan to overlook the rooivalk but keep tabs on it. the z10 were gifts and were for pakistan to try out, once they did they evaluated and used it in combat and came up with recommendations/improvements 1 z10 was sent back to china. which other country would give a "free" chopper to pakistan ? very clever move by the chinese

as for the aw-139. if you dont like it then get the harbin z-15 which is a licenced h175 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Helicopters_H175

its similar in size to the aw-139 and would be certainly cheaper

Why we are not buying heavy transportation helos like CHINKOOK

have you got $40+ million in a swiss bank account ?
if so, great fork it up
if not, be quiet

 

[syed_yusuf]

indeed it can open an industry but you must ask yourself this. how many will pakistan buy? and how many can it realistically sell? the answer to the first question is about 90 max. as for the second part most of the gcc are going for ah-64e's and upgrades from the 64d to the 64e. who's left? no one. can pakistan afford to have a helicopter industry (financially) possibly?

china can help pakistan with choppers, money and more importantly a huge degree of tot. can south africa help pakistan to the degree of the chinese? no

the way i see it is:

• 15 to 36 ah1-z (depending on how the new zulu's perform)
• 90 z10 (back bone)
• ~fennecs scounting/light attack
• 20 mil-35 border attack/assault

Where does it leave T-129?

 

[SQ8]

The chopper mix for now is Mi-17 backbone /workhorse
Puma for siachen assisted by aw-139
Aw-139 for qrf at kashmir front and sar

Ah-1z - 15(10 option) for high end attack

Mi-35 coin

The Z-10 came for eval, tested and returned after eval lease is done.

So far there is no money allocated this budget for attack helis. Certain quarters cite a top level brass member linked with leonardo who forced a transport deal anf siphoned off millions for himself--- unconfirmed

 

[Imran Khan]

View attachment 392949 View attachment 392949

until they never land in Pakistan they are not ours

 

[Windjammer]

PAA Helicopters helping dowse a fire in Karachi.

https://twitter.com/x/status/856867997515952129

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The chopper mix for now is Mi-17 backbone /workhorse
Puma for siachen assisted by aw-139
Aw-139 for qrf at kashmir front and sar

Ah-1z - 15(10 option) for high end attack

Mi-35 coin

The Z-10 came for eval, tested and returned after eval lease is done.

So far there is no money allocated this budget for attack helis. Certain quarters cite a top level brass member linked with leonardo who forced a transport deal anf siphoned off millions for himself--- unconfirmed

IMO no one should have expected two simultaneous attack helicopter programs. If there's an intent for another platform, it'd be slotted for after the AH-1Z are fully absorbed.

Regarding the AW139. The S-70 Black Hawk was the main competitor.

The S-70 had considerably more scale and adoption in govt and civilian circles, used the same engine cores (GE T700) as the AH-1Z, had a distributed supply network (with manufacturers in the US, Poland and soon Turkey) and was a tried and tested machine.

I was told that a disproportionate amount of weighting was given to high altitude usage. It's become common in third world countries to release RFPs that spell out one platform (see the Bangladesh Navy ASW helicopter tender, it pretty much only qualifies the AW159).

 

[SQ8]

IMO no one should have expected two simultaneous attack helicopter programs. If there's an intent for another platform, it'd be slotted for after the AH-1Z are fully absorbed.

Regarding the AW139. The S-70 Black Hawk was the main competitor.

The S-70 had considerably more scale and adoption in govt and civilian circles, used the same engine cores (GE T700) as the AH-1Z, had a distributed supply network (with manufacturers in the US, Poland and soon Turkey) and was a tried and tested machine.

I was told that it a disproportionate amount of weighting was given to high-altitude operations. It's become common in third world countries to release RFPs that literally spell out one platform (see the Bangladesh Navy ASW helicopter tender, it pretty much only qualifies the AW159).

The Aw-139 is a great machine, let there be no doubt in that. Ive traveled in it during the earthquake and it outpaced all other helicopers. It has an excellent crew workload reduction and is very reliable- however, the rumors surrounding the deal are not good.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The Aw-139 is a great machine, let there be no doubt in that. Ive traveled in it during the earthquake and it outpaced all other helicopers. It has an excellent crew workload reduction and is very reliable- however, the rumors surrounding the deal are not good.

Leonardo didn't specify the version PAA is buying, is it the militarized AW139M?

 

[SQ8]

Leonardo didn't specify the version PAA is buying, is it the militarized AW139M?

Its a semi military variant- reasons given for the "lite" version state Pakistan cannot afford any better but something seems off