Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[mikaal hassan]

jk the only way to sort out the parts supply issue from airbus will be to add the Rooivalk +h215m and h225m as a package for all 3 armed forces + including the civil and paramilitary forces too make it a bigger package for airbus that they cant refuse ask for some technology transfer so we can start our helicopter industry ...
right now the we are dealing with 4 different suppliers
USA
RUSSIA
AIRBUS HELICOPTER
AND ITALIANS

IF you look at over all industry according to western analyst the market has been and is still very slow for civilian helicopters
here is the link to a video for HeliExpo 2017 in usa to show most major manufactures are only concentrating on small single engine helicopters .

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It would be really difficult to overlook this latest tech item in present evaluations
Its like we cold be riding a stallion, and have safety , vs walking on bare feet for 2-4 years only for a "Promissed" good to arrive to us in the 5th year....

Not smart to keep investing in assets that will take 5-7 years to materialize

I don't even count the Super Cobra as anything special in our Military arsenal just something to show off in parade not practical for strategic usage from a Military prespective what is 3-5 units going to do for our Military "Zilch"

Similarly the Chinese offering would be easier to service , get a small local workship setup etc and ensure we have quantity based on our requirement

Its rediculous to wait for 2-5 years for 3 Choppers

Why would it be ridiculous to wait? Pakistan isn't a cash flush country, waiting enables the Army (and the rest of the armed forces) to spread their expenditures, finish prior commitments and avoid a crunch. We are talking about short-term intervals (3-5 years) here, not inter-generational periods (15-20 years). Time is a non-issue, especially when a new platform is already slotted for induction over the next 18 months (AH-1Z).

In the case of the Rooivalk Mk2, we are not talking about a completely new platform. The Rooivalk Mk2 is basically the same Rooivalk that was designed, developed and produced by Denel Aviation in the 1990s and 2000s, but with an updated electronics (e.g. avionics, sensor, countermeasures) and weapons suite.

Moreover, this isn't next-generation fighter stuff here. The updated electronics and weapons in question can be procured off-the-shelf (e.g. from Turkey) and integrated in relatively short order. The main lead time for the Rooivalk is having Denel re-activate the production line and, if requested, transfer the technology for production and depot-level maintenance to Pakistan.

Which leads to another point: if you are asking for any supplier - be it South Africa, China or Turkey - for ToT and MRO, then there is going to be a significant lead-time regardless. You'll be waiting a few years regardless of the option you pick (case in point, Pakistan signed the HQ-16 deal in 2013-2014, deliveries began in 2017).

 

[mikaal hassan]

Rooivalk Mk2 + h215 for Pakistan are ideal as both helicopters need a customer who can invest and then keep upgrading and learning from them .right now both helicopters supplier are stuck in a corner with no one willing to invest in them

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Rooivalk Mk2 + h215 for Pakistan are ideal as both helicopters need a customer who can invest and then keep upgrading and learning from them .right now both helicopters supplier are stuck in a corner with no one willing to invest in them

Why not Simply buy which is already Upgraded and up to the mark rather then investing in a Heli which needs investment and for Up-gradation we will still look towards the western countries

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Why not Simply buy which is already Upgraded and up to the mark rather then investing in a Heli which needs investment and for Up-gradation we will still look towards the western countries

• I also agree T-129 is already complete , with latest Avionics and latest tech Turkey is a stategic defence partner
  
• Same story with Z-10 helicopter and similar China-Pakistan relations are solid

Rooivalk Mk2 Project: (Should be a side thought if learning is objective)

• MOU Phase
  
• Finance Phase
• Actual commencement / Development phase
• Testing phase
  
• Transfer or knowledge phase
• Work completion / Deliver phase
• Serial Production

Looking at 5-7 years of full benefits from program to see 10-15 units inducted in 5 years

The short term goal should be to get what we need now which serves for 10 years

• With T-129 / Z-10 , we can induct 50 Choppers in 3-4 years and we will also setup local workship 99% chance of that happening

• Rooivalk Mk2 Feels like a Mirage ROSE upgrade project

 

[mikaal hassan]

the whole point of investing in a right product is to start your own helicopter industry learn and fulfil your requirements instead of patching up like we have been doing for last 20+ years where we have bought 10 from one supplier 5 from another supplier instead of building them in house ..right now USA wont give you any thing with TOT same goes for Russians and Italian manufacturer so whose left which have got 2 products which you need for long term South Africa/Airbus which are mature product manufacturers or Chinese who are still playing catch up

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well at present all deals are in Limbo due to Panama cases

T-129 deal has not been announced yet , however 90% chance of announcement
Z-10 aready in Pakistan's inventory , however followup order pending
Super Cobras , ordered arrival awaited slow delivery
Mi-35 , Ordered a while back awaiting delivery , same exeprience of wait
Augusta Westland (Italian) , ordered also waiting

 

[JK!]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) fully appreciate Pakistan is fiscally limited when it comes to purchases and can only integrate so many systems at once.

We've previously agreed on the issue of commonality of components for Pakistani MBTs and support fleets.

It would be good to see that approach in places like aviation too. Had a quick glance of systems and turboshafts compared to current/future acquisitions.

With AH1Z options include: UH60, AW101, AW149, UH1Y, NH90

Concerning Mi35 commonality of engines is already found in the Mi17s in service.

TAI 129 has engine commonality with AW159 Wildcat. I understand Turkey are looking at Indigenous power plants though.

WZ10 has engine and component commonality with WZ19 and Z9 the latter being in service with Pakistan Navy. The Engine is also used in Army Fennecs.

Rooivalk offers commonality with Pumas in Pakistani Service.

If Pakistan is committed to the Vipers then it would be good to see UH1Y inducted later in the future. Pakistan is familiar already with operating Bell type helicopters.

I'd have to favour the WZ10 over the T129 based on the above too.

 

[mikaal hassan]

• I also agree T-129 is already complete , with latest Avionics and latest tech Turkey is a stategic defence partner
  
• Same story with Z-10 helicopter and similar China-Pakistan relations are solid

Rooivalk Mk2 Project: (Should be a side thought if learning is objective)

• MOU Phase
  
• Finance Phase
• Actual commencement / Development phase
• Testing phase
  
• Transfer or knowledge phase
• Work completion / Deliver phase
• Serial Production

Looking at 5-7 years of full benefits from program to see 10-15 units inducted in 5 years

The short term goal should be to get what we need now which serves for 10 years

• With T-129 / Z-10 , we can induct 50 Choppers in 3-4 years and we will also setup local workship 99% chance of that happening

• Rooivalk Mk2 Feels like a Mirage ROSE upgrade project

with rooivalk you are adding h215 super puma as well as a package similar product similar engine similar transmission plus Rooivalk is in Apache category ...and if the army can act like a smart business man they can add the MRAPS and G6 howitzer (IF PASS OUR TRIALS ) 4 PRODUCTS one supplier who is looking for money and wont give you any headache with TOT

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think a great approach would be to procure 15 T-129 in the short-term. The PAA can utilize the hot-and-high performance element and station them in the Northern Areas. I'm not sure where the Z-10 stands, it didn't take part in the latest March 23 Parade (@Arsalan ?). Building upon the T-129 program, work with Aselsan and Roketsan to integrate the T-129's electronics, sensor pod, countermeasures and weapons to the Rooivalk Mk2. From there, gradually add more T-129s (e.g. bring the fleet up to 45) and pivot to the Rooivalk Mk2 once in full-swing.

 

[Rocky rock]

I think a great approach would be to procure 15 T-129 in the short-term. The PAA can utilize the hot-and-high performance element and station them in the Northern Areas. I'm not sure where the Z-10 stands, it didn't take part in the latest March 23 Parade (@Arsalan ?). Building upon the T-129 program, work with Aselsan and Roketsan to integrate the T-129's electronics, sensor pod, countermeasures and weapons to the Rooivalk Mk2. From there, gradually add more T-129s (e.g. bring the fleet up to 45) and pivot to the Rooivalk Mk2 once in full-swing.

Do you guy's think it makes any sense to procure two same types of different aircraft's for same role in army?
we'll have to choose one of these T-129 or Z-10 as we selected Cobra before.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Do you guy's think it makes any sense to procure two same types of different aircraft's for same role in army?
we'll have to choose one of these T-129 or Z-10 as we selected Cobra before.

If the PAA wants multiple attack helicopter platforms, it needs each type to provide distinct advantages.

For example, the T-129 is apparently a good system for high-altitude operations, this would be helpful in the Northern Areas. Otherwise, the T-129 is a medium-weight helicopter, and so is the Z-10.

The PAA would ask: "since they're both med-weight, what advantage does the Z-10 offer over the T-129?" Technically, none. So pick the T-129 and build upon it via depot-level maintenance, platform access, etc.

In the end, the PAA will only pick one of the Z-10 or T-129. The T-129 has a technical advantage, but the Z-10 has a supply-side advantage, no chance of embargoes and potentially lower acquisition costs.

The reason why I keep bringing up the Rooivalk is because it is a different class of helicopter; it's large like the Apache and Mi-28NE, so it can carry more ATGMs than the T-129/Z-10. You can basically fit a millimeter wave radar above the top-rotor and arm it with 16 ATGMs (like the Apache). It offers a different advantage.

In my opinion, the ideal approach would be T-129 (light) and Rooivalk Mk2 (heavy), with the Rooivalk equipped with the same gear and weapons as the T-129.

 

[Blue Marlin]

i highly doubt pakistan would go for the rooivalk. sure its based of the puma which pakistan operates but that in all brings very little as pakistan would only be familiar with the parts and thats it, and even then they would be modified.

the z10 is the more sensible solution due to price(not known but defiantly lower than the rooivalk)
the t129 is a good chopper but the engine issue is still sketchy.

 

[fatman17]

Why not Simply buy which is already Upgraded and up to the mark rather then investing in a Heli which needs investment and for Up-gradation we will still look towards the western countries

Countries always have their requirements and modifications.

 

[Rocky rock]

If the PAA wants multiple attack helicopter platforms, it needs each type to provide distinct advantages.

For example, the T-129 is apparently a good system for high-altitude operations, this would be helpful in the Northern Areas. Otherwise, the T-129 is a medium-weight helicopter, and so is the Z-10.

The PAA would ask: "since they're both med-weight, what advantage does the Z-10 offer over the T-129?" Technically, none. So pick the T-129 and build upon it via depot-level maintenance, platform access, etc.

In the end, the PAA will only pick one of the Z-10 or T-129. The T-129 has a technical advantage, but the Z-10 has a supply-side advantage, no chance of embargoes and potentially lower acquisition costs.

The reason why I keep bringing up the Rooivalk is because it is a different class of helicopter; it's large like the Apache and Mi-28NE, so it can carry more ATGMs than the T-129/Z-10. You can basically fit a millimeter wave radar above the top-rotor and arm it with 16 ATGMs (like the Apache). It offers a different advantage.

In my opinion, the ideal approach would be T-129 (light) and Rooivalk Mk2 (heavy), with the Rooivalk equipped with the same gear and weapons as the T-129.

There's no chance for Rooivalk. We can manage the same upload thing by increasing the units. Like we always did. Ex:Jf-17 thunder. We need an potent & agile aircraft which proves to be effective in war scenarios.

Z-10 is a fine choice. We must go for T-129 in one case if Pakistan is planning to start co-production with full TOT then it would be a fair choice otherwise z-10 would be an easy go. Even in war time we can maintain our numbers in no time.