Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Blacklight]

waao great history

There is more, how in 1979 it was called in to evacuate civilians from the American Embassy, but that's for another day.

 

[Moon]

It wouldn’t matter either way - the loitering time alone lets you sustain a constant UAV presence for a week without undue costs if needed.

Then why aren't we using them?

 

[HRK]

@ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle

Interesting history of Pumas with PAA

When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.

In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo.

The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.

View attachment 753804
Ferry Route for Combat Pumas

View attachment 753803
Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right

a not only good but a rare share ....

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

As far as today is concerned, the effectiveness of the Karabakh conflict has garnered attention everywhere. If you can keep air superiority over an area then 50 drones costing a $2 million each and armed with 6 ATGMs can go past and devastate entire battlegroups and frustrate an enemy to no end. Sa17 replicas, Pantsirs or other LoMAD is pretty helpless in trying to get all these buzzing flies off it. Finally, even if they all get shot down you’ve barely lost a Rafale in costs while probably causing more damage and over a much wider area in return.

Plus no pilot training costs....

 

[SQ8]

Then why aren't we using them?

Inconsistent doctrines and lack of stakeholder buy in for such capability. Unable to see value proposition vis-a-vis perception of threat. Finally, vested interests in procurement with active and retd personnel along with businessmen and bureaucrats.

Just because an idea is good or doable doesn’t mean the Pakistani military will do it. Ive said on many topics and on many occasions: Pakistanis will defeat Pakistan(as they have before) long before an India, Israel, Terrorist, USA, Bhutan, timbuktoo or penguins ever get around to it.

 

[Sifar zero]

Y

I mean the last major attack happened 80km from Quetta and lasted "several hours", a pair of COIN aircraft could've easily conduct a sortie in that time frame.
Furthermore a squadron or two posted across Balochistan could easily cover the entire province. The can also provide serious fire power for cross border retaliation.

It has EO/IR turret, low operational costs. It's perfect, just needs a glass canopy for better visuals, but yeah better than nothing.

Surveillance of large areas of Balochistan needs to be done, things like High Altitude Pseudo Satellites, tethered balloons, need to be used to at least have a track and trace capability, so you'd at least know what or who hit you, above all know where they went.

Well you are right but who will tell this to our GHQ walay uncles.

 

[Moon]

Inconsistent doctrines and lack of stakeholder buy in for such capability. Unable to see value proposition vis-a-vis perception of threat. Finally, vested interests in procurement with active and retd personnel along with businessmen and bureaucrats.

Just because an idea is good or doable doesn’t mean the Pakistani military will do it. Ive said on many topics and on many occasions: Pakistanis will defeat Pakistan(as they have before) long before an India, Israel, Terrorist, USA, Bhutan, timbuktoo or penguins ever get around to it.

I wish there was a segment in the upper echelons which focused on development and procurement of more cost-effective and disruptive technologies, focused on reducing troop casualties and fatigue.
Americans spent 20 years in Afghanistan, lost 6000+ troops, you might think they failed, but they achieved all of their objectives, inflicted heavy damage, lost very few soldiers, and now that they're leaving the Taliban don't even dare to attack them.
I want a mindset where we focus on inflicting heavy casualties and take little to none ourselves, just having better surveillance can do half of that, here we don't monitor routes FC takes to see if someone has placed an IED or something, you need something like a CCTV in the sky, can stay up very long, passively monitor routes, check posts and at least we'll know where the terrorists come from, where they go and where they hide.

Y

Well you are right but who will tell this to our GHQ walay uncles.

We have so many insiders here, maybe we can get them to do it for us, pen a letter maybe

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Inconsistent doctrines and lack of stakeholder buy in for such capability. Unable to see value proposition vis-a-vis perception of threat. Finally, vested interests in procurement with active and retd personnel along with businessmen and bureaucrats.

Just because an idea is good or doable doesn’t mean the Pakistani military will do it. Ive said on many topics and on many occasions: Pakistanis will defeat Pakistan(as they have before) long before an India, Israel, Terrorist, USA, Bhutan, timbuktoo or penguins ever get around to it.

In the late 1940s, the PAF was interested in license building US aircraft. The UK stepped in, expectedly, but they were actually open to licensing production to Pakistan. They only cautioned that it would be costly, and that waiting for a newer gen design would be wise instead of biting up an existing aircraft. However, we did not take them up on the offer. Interest in the idea of even building fighters fell out entirely once US aid entered the equation.

Based on this account, I think programs in Pakistan fall through "just because" -- i.e., lack of vision, lack of accountability, lack of initiative, etc. The PN MILGEM program, for example, could've simply fallen into mediocrity, but it seems the NHQ (or other actors) got a hold of it and steered it to the right track.

 

[SQ8]

In the late 1940s, the PAF was interested in license building US aircraft. The UK stepped in, expectedly, but they were actually open to licensing production to Pakistan. They only cautioned that it would be costly, and that waiting for a newer gen design would be wise instead of biting up an existing aircraft. However, we did not take them up on the offer. Interest in the idea of even building fighters fell out entirely once US aid entered the equation.

Based on this account, I think programs in Pakistan fall through "just because" -- i.e., lack of vision, lack of accountability, lack of initiative, etc. The PN MILGEM program, for example, could've simply fallen into mediocrity, but it seems the NHQ (or other actors) got a hold of it and steered it to the right track.

The brits tried to milk both India and Pakistan (and did for a while with those useless attackers and other equipment)

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The brits tried to milk both India and Pakistan (and did for a while with those useless attackers and other equipment)

If not for 1965, I think we possibly could've become an F-5 manufacturer. The US slotted in every F-86 user for the F-5, I imagine we were included on the list (and we sent pilots to Turkey for familiarization too). Fay-Panch Tigger

 

[Scorpiooo]

In the late 1940s, the PAF was interested in license building US aircraft. The UK stepped in, expectedly, but they were actually open to licensing production to Pakistan. They only cautioned that it would be costly, and that waiting for a newer gen design would be wise instead of biting up an existing aircraft. However, we did not take them up on the offer. Interest in the idea of even building fighters fell out entirely once US aid entered the equation.

Based on this account, I think programs in Pakistan fall through "just because" -- i.e., lack of vision, lack of accountability, lack of initiative, etc. The PN MILGEM program, for example, could've simply fallen into mediocrity, but it seems the NHQ (or other actors) got a hold of it and steered it to the right track.

1940s ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

1940s ?

1947-1949.

 

[Nomad40]

@ali_raza @PanzerKiel @HRK @LeGenD @The Eagle

Interesting history of Pumas with PAA

When first ordered for Pakistan, the Pumas were destined for PAF, but PAA stepped in and took over.

In 1973 on a ferry flight from France, the first a/c flown by Lt.Col. Tirmizi stopped in Jordan, where King Hussein flew it for 30 mins. This was a VIP helo.

The first combat Puma landed on 23rd July 1977, from the initial batch of 30.

View attachment 753804
Ferry Route for Combat Pumas

View attachment 753803
Chief of Army Staff General Tikka Khan with Lieutenant General Zia on his right

Thanks for this!

 

[Moon]

1947-1949.

I think it was the P-80 shooting star (or F-84)? I remember hearing a story from one of my relatives, about a businessman from Karachi or Hyderabad who wanted to build aircrafts (not just warplanes) in Pakistan. But PAF went with Supermarine Attackers. Then in 70s nationalisation effectively stopped him from doing anything about it.
Back then the gaps in technology between us and Europe/West weren't as wide as they are today (plus they were desperately in need of allies) ambitiousness could get you very far (Indians with the Marut, Argentinians with Pulquii and Egyptians with HA-300).

 

[Blacklight]

Thanks for this!

I will try and find the book on PAA online, and post the link.