Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[TsAr]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1421867767779704832

learnt this lesson when I was 5 years old....

 

[bhola record]

ab is kam ke hi reh gay hain ye cobra bachoon ko khush kerny ke liye

sir chorayen ap bhi ghussay kar jaty hain har bat pe ap bhi jaiye thori hawa kayen rotor ki

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

That is one vintage helicopter , the 1970 Cobras , 50 year old bird , which the folks in public are appreciating as if it is a grand , marvel of machinery

Between 1970 and 2021 , the world has seen tremendous upgrades on the Gunship area

• Heavier Gunships
• Greater variety of weapons
• Armored Types
• More sophisticated Sensors i.e Radars
• More sophisticated Night Mission options
• More sophisticated heat vision sensors
• Satellite , connection etc. For aid

This should not have been this way had we just agreed to use the Chinese Helicopters which were on offer long time ago

Had we inducted the Z-10 Choppers in 2015 , by now 2021 , we could have had a fleet of 40 Choppers to 60 Choppers

The 5 % -15% performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines

The T-129 , Choppers while they would fit the gap , and provide some upgrade however the induction date/speed is quite questionable

 

[CHI RULES]

Only 4-5 with considerable impact perhaps few operations in Baluchistan, why we are not getting more.

 

[Tornado23]

That is one vintage helicopter , the 1970 Cobras , 50 year old bird , which the folks in public are appreciating as if it is a grand , marvel of machinery

Between 1970 and 2021 , the world has seen tremendous upgrades on the Gunship area

• Heavier Gunships
• Greater variety of weapons
• Armored Types
• More sophisticated Sensors i.e Radars
• More sophisticated Night Mission options
• More sophisticated heat vision sensors
• Satellite , connection etc. For aid

This should not have been this way had we just agreed to use the Chinese Helicopters which were on offer long time ago

Had we inducted the Z-10 Choppers in 2015 , by now 2021 , we could have had a fleet of 40 Choppers to 60 Choppers

The 5 % -15% performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines

The T-129 , Choppers while they would fit the gap , and provide some upgrade however the induction date/speed is quite questionable

Good thing it's not the ah1g then

 

[iLION12345_1]

That is one vintage helicopter , the 1970 Cobras , 50 year old bird , which the folks in public are appreciating as if it is a grand , marvel of machinery

Between 1970 and 2021 , the world has seen tremendous upgrades on the Gunship area

• Heavier Gunships
• Greater variety of weapons
• More sophisticated Sensors i.e Radars
• More sophisticated Night Mission options
• More sophisticated heat vision sensors
• Satellite , connection etc. For aid

This should not have been this way had we just agreed to use the Chinese Helicopters which were on offer long time ago

Had we inducted the Z-10 Choppers in 2015 , by now 2021 , we could have had a fleet of 40 Choppers to 60 Choppers

The 5 % -15% performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines

The T-129 , Choppers while they would fit the gap , and provide some upgrade however the induction date/speed is quite questionable

Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the best gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.


The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t.

Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.

Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).

But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.

Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.

Only 4-5 with considerable impact perhaps few operations in Baluchistan, why we are not getting more.

Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.

While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).

 

[ali_raza]

Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the best gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.


The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t.

Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.

Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).

But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.

Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.

Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.

While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).

wht if ah1z comes back to table
would u rule out such scenerio

 

[Dreamer.]

Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the best gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.


The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t.

Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.

Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).

But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.

Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.

Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.

While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).

If AH-1Z is as great as you are saying and even a generation ahead of Apache, then why did the PA reject such a significant capability leap? As far as we know it was only blocked if paid for by US money and was available if paid for by Pakistani money. The aircraft were already build and almost ready for delivery....who on earth would be stupid enough to pass such a significant capability enhancement for a few million dollars? Unless there is something we are missing or else this was the stupidest decision ever! Ditto the 8 F-16's withheld for same reason. So what are we missing?

Also, kindly stop dissing the Z-10 and praising the Z-10ME in the same go, you are not fooling anyone here.

 

[Raja Porus]

The 5 % -15% performance variance , between Z-10 and Super Cobra would not have mattered much if we inducted greater number of machines

Angoor khatay hain...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

50 year old Angor , are shot down in first 5 hours of combat
Because they won't have mechanism to protect them from modern Anti Gunship weaponry

Any weaponry beyond 10 year or Decade behind won't survive any real battlefield

 

[khanasifm]

Firstly the difference isn’t a mere 5-15%. The AH-1Z is simply in another class, Z-10 or T-129 cannot take its place unless in 2x the numbers. Its is simply the best gunship on sale anywhere right now. (PS: the super cobra is not AH-1Z, that is older AH-1J). It’s considered half a generation ahead of the Apache itself.


The Z-10K wasn’t even operable at higher temperatures and altitudes as Pakistan needed it to be, nor did it have the kind of weaponry the AH-1Z did, The hellfire missiles PA was along with it were then a generation ahead of anything China was making.
To give some specific examples: The AH-1Z has 6 hard points. Apache, Z-10 (all versions) and T-129 have 4. The T-129 and Z-10 can both carry around 1500KG of ordinance. AH-1Z can carry 2700 KG. AH-1Z can use current Gen A-2-A missiles in the AIM9X series. AH-64 and Z-10, T-129 are limited to previous gen ones. AH-1Z is also considerably faster than all the other three. And that’s before the fact that it’s sensors and such are the best.
Z-10K would have been hilariously outclassed by Indian Apaches if PA bought it, I’m glad they didn’t.

Secondly, PAs decision made 100% sense considering their previous usage of AH-1. The training, maintenance, weaponry, everything they were familiar with. With the Chinese one they’d have to buy everything from scratch.

Thirdly, Imo PAs plan was always the induction of both heavy and lighter gunships. Which meant the T-129B and AH-1Z together (shared weaponry and Systems too due to NATO, or that was the idea back then, that’s also why AH-1Z made more sense).

But due to how relations deteriorated (something PA could not have predicted), both these helicopter deals ended badly. I don’t think T-129B is coming anymore either. However the new version of the Z-10, the ME, that Pakistan is testing, has brought it above the T-129B imo, especially since China has also developed better weaponry since. It should now be PAs pick for the lighter gunship class while they can wait for Turkey to develop the ATAK-2 and buy that for the heavy class.

Lastly, PAs cobras aren’t 50 year old AH-1G or S models, they are AH-1F models, which are from the 80s, not as old as one might think, but regardless, they have reached the absolute end of their service life and need to go now. PA needs to get something quick, and the only option seems to be Z-10ME, since they seem to have rejected Russian Mi-28 and AH-1Z, T-129B aren’t coming.

Currently only 4 in service, there was apparently an order of 5 more, but we’ve not heard of anything about it for nearly 1.5+ years now. Maybe it’s still coming, but any follow up deal has not been in any Russian or Pakistani media. The only indication of another order was in AFM magazine which said Pakistani officials had confirmed it at IDEAS.

While the Mi35 is good, it cannot serve the same way as a dedicated gunship, that’s why PA would not want it in large numbers. It can’t lioter and hover the same way, it’s better for strafing runs (thanks SQ8 for that one).

Nothing of the sort thereason ah-1z were orders because there was $$ part of coalition support for military and used to order and keep US industry going as well

same was the case for 8 F-16s subsidized which were not accepted or delivered as subsidy was retracted

There were other goods offered part of coalition support like uh-60 from Afghanistan but we’re rejected as they had taken beating and not much life left which meant would require again overhauls and re lifing to be paid by pak
end of story

 

[Raja Porus]

Any weaponry beyond 10 year or Decade behind won't survive any real battlefield

F16s too?

 

[iLION12345_1]

wht if ah1z comes back to table
would u rule out such scenerio

In a world where PAK-US relations weren’t an issue at all, if these came back to the table, they would be the only good choice for PA.

If AH-1Z is as great as you are saying and even a generation ahead of Apache, then why did the PA reject such a significant capability leap? As far as we know it was only blocked if paid for by US money and was available if paid for by Pakistani money. The aircraft were already build and almost ready for delivery....who on earth would be stupid enough to pass such a significant capability enhancement for a few million dollars? Unless there is something we are missing or else this was the stupidest decision ever! Ditto the 8 F-16's withheld for same reason. So what are we missing?

Also, kindly stop dissing the Z-10 and praising the Z-10ME in the same go, you are not fooling anyone here.

They did not reject it, they wanted the US to pay because they were dirt poor, that is the reality of it. They were absolutely cash strapped with the war on terror. Otherwise they would not be ordering 12 aircraft (remember that 15 were offered and we only accepted 12) to replace 50 aircraft. AH-1Z is not a cheap aircraft (The weaponry Pakistan wanted with it even more so). There were no banks or such in the US to finance them the same way we do from Turkey and China. They wanted Pakistan to pay all the money upfront.
PA could never have seen such deterioration in relations coming their way, they simply hoped they could convince the US to pay for them by CSF, which frankly they weren’t wrong to try it.

And I will diss and praise what I please based on the reality of the facts. I know how Z-10K performed and how much of a difference Z-10ME makes. I know how they both compare to T-129B and AH-1Z, and I know how good the AH-1Z is. Aik to Pakistanion Ko Thora such bata do to pehle hi gussa kar dete hain.

Z-10M, the one Pakistan tested initially, had a WZ-9C engine making 1000KW of power. The WZ-16 in ME makes 1200+ kW and is better rated for hot and dusty climates. Z10ME can carry more ordinance (which actually brings it on par with its class, it was below the others before), can fly faster, higher, for longer and has better engine reliability due to less load.
Also Z10ME Adds: active and passive countermeasures, (only Passive in the M), missile approach warning system (M had one but not of this size and capability) , new engine exhaust nozzle pointed upwards to reduce infrared signature, new intake filtration systems (dusty climates…) and armor panels, more powerful 1200 kW engine, larger ammunition magazine, appliqué graphene-based armor panels, infrared jammer, and a new IFF interrogator (none of this present in the M).
And I already compared it to the AH-1Z above.
So how would I call Z-10M comparable to Z-10ME after all of this?
PA has strict standards for what they procure, and the Z-10M was simply not a good helicopter.

Kindly do some basic research before leaving such aggressive comments and becoming emotional next time.

50 year old Angor , are shot down in first 5 hours of combat
Because they won't have mechanism to protect them from modern Anti Gunship weaponry

Any weaponry beyond 10 year or Decade behind won't survive any real battlefield

Brother if you think 10 years is too much age for a weapon then Pakistan should retire 95% of its weaponry. Please be realistic with regards to the situation of the country.

Nothing of the sort thereason ah-1z were orders because there was $$ part of coalition support for military and used to order and keep US industry going as well

same was the case for 8 F-16s subsidized which were not accepted or delivered as subsidy was retracted

There were other goods offered part of coalition support like uh-60 from Afghanistan but we’re rejected as they had taken beating and not much life left which meant would require again overhauls and re lifing to be paid by pak
end of story

Obviously there was an element of CSF that pulled the PA towards the AH-1Z, but that does not discount what I said about its capabilities or it logistically making sense for the PA. CSF was just supposed to be the cherry on top. US industry wouldn’t gain anything from Pakistan ordering 12 helicopters and 8 aircraft when they sell hundreds every year.

 

[Dreamer.]

They did not reject it, they wanted the US to pay because they were dirt poor, that is the reality of it. They were absolutely cash strapped with the war on terror. Otherwise they would not be ordering 12 aircraft (remember that 15 were offered and we only accepted 12) to replace 50 aircraft. AH-1Z is not a cheap aircraft (The weaponry Pakistan wanted with it even more so). There were no banks or such in the US to finance them the same way we do from Turkey and China. They wanted Pakistan to pay all the money upfront.

What upfront?? Planes were built and about to be delivered when Trump blocked them. Once he did, it was clear CSF money would not be usable here. PA should have paid if the capability leap was worth it. Every country buys weapons with their money, so does Pakistan for lot of its purchases. Did PA not need them that much? Only PA can answer this.

PA could never have seen such deterioration in relations coming their way, .

Oh really???? I could have offered the services of my 5 year old if they'd only asked.

And BTW forseeable or not, there was plenty of time to decide AFTER trump blocked the use of US funds.

Like I said only PA can answer why they rejected to pay for AH-1Z. Was it not needed? or they had better options? Or they had no money at all? (don't mention WoT here because 1. this is circa 2018 we are talking about, 2. people here keep telling us there is no problem with money,).

Personally I believe we could surely have paid for them. If there's a critical requirement that must be fulfilled, than money can be arranged. In my opinion this was a more important requirement than buying new tanks.

And I will diss and praise what I please based on the reality of the facts. [
I know how Z-10K performed and how much of a difference Z-10ME makes. I know how they both compare to T-129B and AH-1Z, and I know how good the AH-1Z is. Aik to Pakistanion Ko Thora such bata do to pehle hi gussa kar dete hain.

I have no idea what 'such' you are referring to here. I merely thought your comparison was not balanced and that's my opinion. There is no 'gussa' involved.

Z-10M, the one Pakistan tested initially, had a WZ-9C engine making 1000KW of power. The WZ-16 in ME makes 1200+ kW and is better rated for hot and dusty climates. Z10ME can carry more ordinance (which actually brings it on par with its class, it was below the others before), can fly faster, higher, for longer and has better engine reliability due to less load.
Also Z10ME Adds: active and passive countermeasures, (only Passive in the M), missile approach warning system (M had one but not of this size and capability) , new engine exhaust nozzle pointed upwards to reduce infrared signature, new intake filtration systems (dusty climates…) and armor panels, more powerful 1200 kW engine, larger ammunition magazine, appliqué graphene-based armor panels, infrared jammer, and a new IFF interrogator (none of this present in the M).
And I already compared it to the AH-1Z above.
So how would I call Z-10M comparable to Z-10ME after all of this?
PA has strict standards for what they procure, and the Z-10M was simply not a good helicopter.

Thanks for your detailed comparison. I will reserve my comments for now.

Kindly do some basic research before leaving such aggressive comments and becoming emotional next time.

I was never 'aggressive' or 'emotional'. I merely made an observation based on my understanding, and did so quite politely. It is you who should not get emotional

 

[air marshal]