Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Ahmet Pasha]

Cessna C208 Grand Caravans are excellent for making small logistical runs to small airstrips and other cargo ops. It is the main workhorse used by Fedex feeder division in North America. And also by Island hopping airlines like Hawaiian and small Alaskan carriers.

So maybe that is why PAA interested in them.

 

[Shabi1]

But reality is that don't have fund and intension to get some good new air lift and utilities plateform.. although they are very important in peace and wa time...
Specially in war time they become core for logistics and troop movement... we have very limited resources when we comapre with indian aif force and army operations

PAF has a timeline for C-130 replacement which has not yet come, not a matter of funds but priorities right now. The oldest ones were quietly replaced, this platform is working fine right now but their time is yet to come.
My own opinion is PAF will strongly consider the C-390 eventually, so its a interesting aircraft to follow. Right now the Midas multirole tankers are PAFs backbone for transport and they are getting upgrades.

Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PAF has a timeline for C-130 replacement which has not yet come, not a matter of funds but priorities right now. The oldest ones were quietly replaced, this platform is working fine right now but their time is yet to come.
My own opinion is PAF will strongly consider the C-390 eventually, so its a interesting aircraft to follow.

Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think so too. The other constraint on procurement is FATF. You need trade banks to guarantee sales and purchases between governments. I believe many of said banks don't want to deal with Pakistan currently due to FATF, which cuts our supply pool.

 

[GriffinsRule]

C-390 and the Chinese Y-20 (once re-engined) are the perfect replacement for C-130s and IL-78s. But these are expensive aircraft and PAF will have to invest in overhaul and maintenance infrastructure as well to sustain the fleet for decades to come. With Embraer, there should definitely be an offset deal with Kamra manufacturing parts of the airframe. There would also be a need for engine overhaul.

I would say once the PN retires it's Orions and inducts the new MPA, it would be a good time for PAF as well. But for this to happen by 2030 let's say, they need to start moving in that direction now. These deals take a long time to materialize and are expensive.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

C-390 and the Chinese Y-20 (once re-engined) are the perfect replacement for C-130s and IL-78s. But these are expensive aircraft and PAF will have to invest in overhaul and maintenance infrastructure as well to sustain the fleet for decades to come. With Embraer, there should definitely be an offset deal with Kamra manufacturing parts of the airframe. There would also be a need for engine overhaul.

I would say once the PN retires it's Orions and inducts the new MPA, it would be a good time for PAF as well. But for this to happen by 2030 let's say, they need to start moving in that direction now. These deals take a long time to materialize and are expensive.

Here's a novel idea instead of waiting for man o salwa to come down. Sign a JV with Turkey and Ukraine who are about to work on aircraft designs as the likes of A400m and KC390. Split cost and become a part supplier.

Doubt the uncles will listen tho.

 

[Scorpiooo]

PAF has a timeline for C-130 replacement which has not yet come, not a matter of funds but priorities right now. The oldest ones were quietly replaced, this platform is working fine right now but their time is yet to come.
My own opinion is PAF will strongly consider the C-390 eventually, so its a interesting aircraft to follow. Right now the Midas multirole tankers are PAFs backbone for transport and they are getting upgrades.

Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

IMO , PAF will keep C130 jets somehow, may some used one from 3rd or boneyard. Just depend till when existing can serve.

PAf much satisfied and emotionally attached with C130.

C390 can be added as alternative but in limited numbers but remember C130 is 4 engine and C390 is 2 engine

Other option for replacement of IL78 and additiontion of tanker will Y20 ... will depend when it will be offered for export after completion of domestic need and when its tanker version came to production

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

C-390 and the Chinese Y-20 (once re-engined) are the perfect replacement for C-130s and IL-78s. But these are expensive aircraft and PAF will have to invest in overhaul and maintenance infrastructure as well to sustain the fleet for decades to come. With Embraer, there should definitely be an offset deal with Kamra manufacturing parts of the airframe. There would also be a need for engine overhaul.

I would say once the PN retires it's Orions and inducts the new MPA, it would be a good time for PAF as well. But for this to happen by 2030 let's say, they need to start moving in that direction now. These deals take a long time to materialize and are expensive.

IMO we need a mix of turboprop and jet-based aircraft.

The turboprops could support our hot-and-high operations, while the jets take on the bulk of cross-country and overseas logistics work. The C390 is a good jet because it uses the same powerplants as the A320, so it gives us both airliner efficiency and a huge support base to draw on anywhere it lands.

The turboprop part would be difficult to figure out. I don't know if the US would approve of us buying C-130Js or LM-100Js. We could start saving our existing C-130's by offloading the non-hot-and-high ops to something like the C390.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

C130 is 4 engine and C390 is 2 engine

What a logic Saar G!!

 

[GriffinsRule]

IMO we need a mix of turboprop and jet-based aircraft.

The turboprops could support our hot-and-high operations, while the jets take on the bulk of cross-country and overseas logistics work. The C390 is a good jet because it uses the same powerplants as the A320, so it gives us both airliner efficiency and a huge support base to draw on anywhere it lands.

The turboprop part would be difficult to figure out. I don't know if the US would approve of us buying C-130Js or LM-100Js. We could start saving our existing C-130's by offloading the non-hot-and-high ops to something like the C390.

There's only so much airframe life you can save on 60yr old aircrafts without impacting operations. If US sells J series, I'm all for it. Esp if we can get the ones UK is retiring. It is still a terrific aircraft. However, if we can not get them, then the Embraer option should be taken up. I am not in favor of a split fleet of the same weight class. We can also opt to buy more CN-295s to compliment what the four CN-235s we have. They are turboprops and with very decent PW engines for hot and high performance.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There's only so much airframe life you can save on 60yr old aircrafts without impacting operations. If US sells J series, I'm all for it. Esp if we can get the ones UK is retiring. It is still a terrific aircraft. However, if we can not get them, then the Embraer option should be taken up. I am not in favor of a split fleet of the same weight class. We can also opt to buy more CN-295s to compliment what the four CN-235s we have. They are turboprops and with very decent PW engines for hot and high performance.

I was wondering if we could re-engine the Ukrainian An-70s with PW150s (via Canada), but saw that (it being the bigger plane) required way more powerful powerplants.

The crazier option is trying to design an original turboprop aircraft similar to the Herc. The engines are there (e.g., PW150), and to an extent, we can draw on Ukraine's experience -- e.g., a miniaturized An-70? Sure the economies-of-scale isn't there at all if we're the only user, but OTOH, what if we perpetually build them at a rate of 1-2 a year?

Basically, we replace our old domestically built transports with new ones every 25-30 years (just like the US has done with the Herc-line)? Imagine a design that's a bit larger than the An-178 (but smaller than the An-77), and uses 4 PW150s instead of the 2 turbofans?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I was wondering if we could re-engine the Ukrainian An-70s with PW150s (via Canada), but saw that (it being the bigger plane) required way more powerful powerplants. The crazier option is trying to design an original turboprop aircraft similar to the Herc. The engines are there (e.g., PW150), and to an extent, we can draw on Ukraine's experience -- e.g., a miniaturized An-70?

There's at least 3 companies developing a similar KC390 like design.
Japanese Mitsubishi (I'm not well aware on it)
Brazilian Embraer
Ukrainian Antonov and now TAI is also entering the fray with the Ukrainians.

PakMil: Like the girl that has tons of stuff in the wardrobe but still says I have nothing to wear.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I was wondering if we could re-engine the Ukrainian An-70s with PW150s (via Canada), but saw that (it being the bigger plane) required way more powerful powerplants.

The crazier option is trying to design an original turboprop aircraft similar to the Herc. The engines are there (e.g., PW150), and to an extent, we can draw on Ukraine's experience -- e.g., a miniaturized An-70? Sure the economies-of-scale isn't there at all if we're the only user, but OTOH, what if we perpetually build them at a rate of 3-4 a year?

Basically, we replace our old domestically built transports with new ones every 25-30 years (just like the US has done with the Herc-line)? Imagine a design that's a bit larger than the An-178 (but smaller than the An-77), and uses 4 PW150s instead of the 2 turbofans?

View attachment 735484

Not sure if that is sustainable. US was able to do it with the Allison engine since it has a basis of design from the 1950s and came to power THE transport aircraft of the world. Economies of scale still matter unless you want to pay Japanese like prices for your manufactured goods. Same funds better spent at figuring out drone engines instead first where failure isn't cartestrophic.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

You know at the time when I brought up KC390 the reaction of PDFers was same old it's not mature, we have indestructible C130s, mighty PAF doesn't need it. Now it looks like after the pandemic roller coaster is gone. A lot of nations may be interested in swooping up this jet and major stakes in Embraer. Hey don't shoot the messenger

 

[GriffinsRule]

There's at least 3 companies developing a similar KC390 like design.
Japanese Mitsubishi (I'm not well aware on it)
Brazilian Embraer
Ukrainian Antonov and now TAI is also entering the fray with the Ukrainians.

PakMil: Like the girl that has tons of stuff in the wardrobe but still says I have nothing to wear.

I wouldn't count on the Ukrainian angle much. I feel it's a lot of smoke and mirrors

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You know at the time when I brought up KC390 the reaction of PDFers was same old it's not mature, we have indestructible C130s, mighty PAF doesn't need it. Now it looks like after the pandemic roller coaster is gone. A lot of nations may be interested in swooping up this jet and major stakes in Embraer. Hey don't shoot the messenger

'Mature' is code for buying US or Chinese.