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Pakistan 'army air strike kills dozens of civilians'

See.. NATO is also not deliberately bombing civilians. The incident today goes to show that in a war zone, mistakes can happen. The same may get thrown back at Pakistan if she protests next time there is collateral damage..

And its a well circulated semi - fact that Drone attacks have Pakistani govt's approval (though not publically) ..

You are right...and i have written repeatedly that its not like NATO kill civilians just for the heck of it...However your own Army trying to kill taliban and end up killing civilians vs being done a foreign power just makes the matter worse...

Just see the reaction of Pakistani friends here...They are more or less willing to accept that collateral damage cannot be avoided however tone changes if collateral damage occurs due to NATO...

Anyways as said in previous posts such actions add fuel to the cause of Insurgents and help them immensely....
 
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You are right...and i have written repeatedly that its not like NATO kill civilians just for the heck of it...However your own Army trying to kill taliban and end up killing civilians vs being done a foreign power just makes the matter worse...
I disagree, and so do most Pakistanis given that there was far more outrage over the news of US drone strikes killing civilians than there is over the PA doing so.

Just see the reaction of Pakistani friends here...They are more or less willing to accept that collateral damage cannot be avoided however tone changes if collateral damage occurs due to NATO...
Exactly my point - collateral damage by our own forces, while cause for criticism, causes less outrage than collateral damage by a foreign force.
Anyways as said in previous posts such actions add fuel to the cause of Insurgents and help them immensely....
The military and most Pakistanis supporting the military operations are aware of that.
 
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The PA is very aware of the necessity of development - PA presentations never fail to emphasize the fact that military force can only go so far, and that there is a need for 'hold, reconstruction, rehabilitation and raising local law enforcement to take on security responsibilities'. You can see these principles being employed in Swat where infrastructure is being rebuilt, local police is being trained and attempts to kick start the economy are being made.

This is indeed great news...Though the way things work in South Asia(Plagued with Corruption) i would be surprised if things are moving at right pace...These are the same officers who could have brought development to these areas much before the problem started....Ironically even though there are million paper schemes nothing got implemented...I hope you will understand my reservation on your claim considering that these are the same officials who are supposed to bring back development in these areas who at first never let development reach there....

There was a reason the PA and GoP under Musharraf was so reluctant to take on the Taliban militarily, which is precisely what you mentioned of the unpopularity of deploying the military against its own citizens.
And they were right...Military action against your own people are dangerous...However this is where Pakistan image in international arena hurts her...People across doubted her intent to do anything against so called home grown terrorists instead of her reluctance due to the reason you mentioned...Now what is truth IMO i don't know....though i agree that reluctance to use military agasint your own populace would have been the toughest decision for PA in this decade...



Unfortunately, the Taliban and other extremists organizations pushed the country to the brink of collapse with their terrorist attacks in all major cities and expansion into more and more areas. There simply was no other choice except to deploy the military, the threat was too large and too powerful for law enforcement and the paramilitaries to control.
As said earlier you had no choice but to Fight...Ideally this situation should have been avoided but then now nothing else make sense than PA assault....


And these types of incidents, while still regrettable, do remain rare, and the PA is acutely aware of the need to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties.
IMO i know they are aware but as per me they don't have much choice....I shared the reason earlier...

- To achieve peace state moves in Armed Forces who unfortunately are not well trained to take on these insurgents in their own den...
- Armed forces get some setbacks and compensate for their lack of training by lowering their standards of operation and end up causing collateral damage...
 
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Six hellish days

By Rahimullah Yousufzai, resident editor of The News in Peshawar.

Six hellish days

The Tirah tragedy was avoidable. As has been its method, the military initially claimed killing 35 militants in the bombing in Sra Vella village inhabited by the largely pro-government Kukikhel Afridi sub-tribe. Even when reports emerged that all or most of the 63 people slain in the bombardment were civilians, the military authorities kept quiet. In fact, the military has refused to concede civilian casualties, or 'collateral damage' in all its offensives todate in Swat and rest of Malakand division and in the tribal areas. Admitting the loss of civilian lives in misdirected aerial strikes, artillery shelling and raids and apologizing for the 'collateral damage' won't do any harm to the image of the military as the people understand that such incidents do happen in battle. In fact, this could reduce the pain of the bereaved families because the usual practice of referring to their loved ones as 'militants' or 'miscreants' invariably contributes to their agony.

The Khyber Agency administration is now required to do damage control and lessen the pain of the families that lost 63 members and are tending to the scores of others who sustained injuries. The political agent of Khyber Agency convened a jirga of the Kukikhel tribal elders on April 12, offered apology for the civilian deaths and announced Rs10 million as compensation for the innocent among those killed and injured in Tirah. However, federal minister for environment, Hamidullah Jan Afridi, who belongs to Khyber Agency, wants the Pakistan Air Force to tender an apology for the deaths of innocent people and is seeking accountability of those responsible for the tragedy.

The irony of the situation is that three sons of late Hameed Khan, whose three-storey house was bombed by the jet-fighters in Sra Vella in the first strike, are reportedly serving in Pakistan's security forces. They were on duty when their house was bombed and five to six of their family members including women and children were killed. The second bombing raid was far more devastating as rescuers who had rushed to retrieve bodies and recover the injured were attacked. Militants by now know that there could be a second strike and, therefore, avoid congregating at the site of an earlier aerial raid. Unassuming civilians often become victim of such attacks. Besides, aerial bombardment invariably causes 'collateral damage' and more so in an area as inaccessible and closed as Tirah valley where the government presence is non-existent and intelligence-gathering is difficult. As someone remarked, the drones with laser-guided missiles are far more on target in remote places than jet-fighters and gunship-helicopters.

The military needs to improve intelligence-gathering to undertake targetted raids to avoid tragic happenings. Undoubtedly, Taliban militants and those aligned to Lashkar-i-Islam, Ansarul Islam and other groups are based in Tirah valley and it may not be easy to differentiate friends from foes due to inadequate intelligence. But not bombing should be the preferred option than unleashing airpower in case of insufficient or faulty intelligence. The Tirah tragedy could likely provoke members of the bereaved families to turn to militancy and seek revenge. And Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa would continue to suffer tragedies perpetrated by the militants and, at times, inadvertently at the hands of the military.



I wonder what might those 3 soldiers in Pakistan Security Forces be going through, whose house was ransacked, and their family killed in the raids conducted by their own organization... :undecided:
 
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This is indeed great news...Though the way things work in South Asia(Plagued with Corruption) i would be surprised if things are moving at right pace...These are the same officers who could have brought development to these areas much before the problem started....Ironically even though there are million paper schemes nothing got implemented...I hope you will understand my reservation on your claim considering that these are the same officials who are supposed to bring back development in these areas who at first never let development reach there....
The articles discussing the development efforts in Swat (which are posted in this section and in the Swat sticky) point out that the PA is bypassing the local officials for that reason. Schools and roads are being built in weeks and months instead of the 'several months' it would normally take, and the training of LEA's is also being handled by the Army to some extent.

The Army also continues to patrol Swat with the police so as to help train and build confidence.

And they were right...Military action against your own people are dangerous...However this is where Pakistan image in international arena hurts her...People across doubted her intent to do anything against so called home grown terrorists instead of her reluctance due to the reason you mentioned...Now what is truth IMO i don't know....though i agree that reluctance to use military agasint your own populace would have been the toughest decision for PA in this decade...
When entire States decide to wage information warfare and spread anti-Pakistan propaganda (referring to the US and its use of its media juggernaut to malign Pakistan with leaks from 'anonymous sources') then how can international opinion be salvaged? There is nothing comparable to the US media juggernaut, and when you add in the other Western news sources basing their reports on the same propaganda articles from the US media or the same 'anonymous sources' pushing a particular agenda, then the global narrative is overwhelmingly anti-Pakistan. What happened in the runup to Iraq should be a clear example of how this works.

IMO i know they are aware but as per me they don't have much choice....I shared the reason earlier...
The PA is also the best organization to incorporate COIN training, given the existing discipline and capacity of the institution. It is no surprise then that the COIN and FIBUA training of local LEA's is also being handled by the Army (with some Western SOF trainers as well).

While not preferable, the task at hand is being handled by the institution best equipped to execute it, in the least amount of time possible. In the long run of course the plan is to have the local security forces being raised take over.
 
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I wonder what might those 3 soldiers in Pakistan Security Forces be going through, whose house was ransacked, and their family killed in the raids conducted by their own organization... :undecided:

I am sure they are felling grief and are in mourning, and I hope the military will take care of them.

Unfortunate accidents happen.
 
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I disagree, and so do most Pakistanis given that there was far more outrage over the news of US drone strikes killing civilians than there is over the PA doing so.

I probably did not explain it properly...because i want to say that collateral damage by PA would not be taken as negative as by NATO
 
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The articles discussing the development efforts in Swat (which are posted in this section and in the Swat sticky) point out that the PA is bypassing the local officials for that reason. Schools and roads are being built in weeks and months instead of the 'several months' it would normally take, and the training of LEA's is also being handled by the Army to some extent.

The Army also continues to patrol Swat with the police so as to help train and build confidence.

Wow...now this is called being professional...Hats off to PA if they are doing what you just said....


When entire States decide to wage information warfare and spread anti-Pakistan propaganda (referring to the US and its use of its media juggernaut to malign Pakistan with leaks from 'anonymous sources') then how can international opinion be salvaged? There is nothing comparable to the US media juggernaut, and when you add in the other Western news sources basing their reports on the same propaganda articles from the US media or the same 'anonymous sources' pushing a particular agenda, then the global narrative is overwhelmingly anti-Pakistan. What happened in the runup to Iraq should be a clear example of how this works.

I know this is painful...However its not just propaganda because atleast in the past there were theories of using terrorist as strategic assets...In other words I totally agree about expoliting the news media to make perceptions(good or bad) however i in the manner agree that all and everything is not a lie...Some of the problems that you are facing did originate from actions taken by PA in the past....


The PA is also the best organization to incorporate COIN training, given the existing discipline and capacity of the institution. It is no surprise then that the COIN and FIBUA training of local LEA's is also being handled by the Army (with some Western SOF trainers as well).

No doubt about it....PA is indeed the most disciplined institution in your country....Though as a well wisher i would like to see Paramilitary forces coming to terms as quickly as possible and military role reduced to taking care of your eastern and western border...


While not preferable, the task at hand is being handled by the institution best equipped to execute it, in the least amount of time possible. In the long run of course the plan is to have the local security forces being raised take over.

Bolded part sums it all....Thanks for the healthy and informative discussion...I think it is time for our security forces to learn a few things from PA but fortunately/unfortunately they don't have much say in our political system and thus cannot take over development activities which is left out to corrupt babus....Nevertheless good job PA...
 
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It is indeed a sad incident, The People who suffered will surely take a lot of time to recover from this tragedy and furthermore, to again build confidence in the Army.
 
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And these types of incidents, while still regrettable, do remain rare, and the PA is acutely aware of the need to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties.


A tragedy and my prayers for the families of those that have lost their loved ones.
Though this incident is terrible we should note how rare reports of this kind have been, the Pakistan military has done remarkably well in avoiding civilian casualties in difficult cuircumstances.
 
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I don't think that i am ignoring that fact..In fact i am saying that Indian and Pakistani forces are not well trained to take on insurgents because such operations do not come under their training structure....
After a few hurdles in the initial stages of Swat operations, with the change of it's strategy, the PA have kept the insurgents at the receiving end and on the run.


I am not surprised about high number of PA casualties. They are/were bound to happen...Unfortunate but true...You cannot expect miracles just by putting in your Army into a war which they are not prepared for...Considering budget contraints that PA faces as compared with NATO forces this is/was going to happen...and mind it this is not because NATO don't care about civilians and PA is extra careful but because of higher standards of safety process when it comes to soldiers of west viz-a-viz third world countries like us....
Majority of casualties were suffered by the FC militia force, since they went in without assessment and precautions like the tragic CRPF guys.
What i am debating is the complexity involved when it comes to dealing with insurgents...No one has got a clear answer to it...Sri Lanka did manage incredible success but there are lot of questions on their operation regarding civilian casualties
Initially the FC adopted the strategy of going in all guns blazing, without realizing the tendancy of insurgents, who were hiding in hill tops and casually ambushed them at will, but the PA adopted the strategy of clearing the hill tops first with gunships and snipers. Now the odd pockets of these scumbags are running helter skelter, seeking safety and shelter where ever possible, hence this tragedy.
 
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Either these areas should be fully brought under the fold of the state of Pakistan and they should be protected just like the rest of Pakistan or we should just relenqusih control over these areas.

This 50/50 type of settlement is bringing more death and destruction. Its causing tragedies like these amongst tribal familes and also amongst military familes whose fathers, sons and brtohers have to fight with their one hand tied behind their back.

We need to have a refferendum in these areas and if they choose not to be wth Pakistan and be independant we should respect that.

This is now the only way to avoid tragedies on all sides , be it in military familes or be it in tribal area people.
 
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The reasons behind the lack of a media outcry could be the fact that the areas in which the strike occurred are off limits.

Strange, it's not off-limits enough for regional journalists to get there though eh? Everything points to an army coverup who are now working in tandem with local administration officials starting to dish out the "hush money". And why has Maj Gen Athar Abbas persistently denied that these were innocent civillians now that these 'terrorists' [men, women, children] who were injured in the stike are treated under guard in Peshawars hospitals? The pictures are also coming in too and I can tell you they are the strangest looking terrorists I've ever seen.

How long before Maj Gen Athar Abbas has the decency to do a U-turn?



Beyond that your comment is merely speculative and an attempt to flame ethnic tensions. Instead of comparing a strike in a remote and largely off limits tribal area to a strike in Karachi, a better comparison would have been of a mistaken strike in Peshawar vs a strike in Karachi.

With both Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns in my family I can assure you I have no desire for flaming any ethnic tension as it would DIRECTLY affect me. Lets take your example anyway, remember the ashura blast - How much media attention, pandering by Rehman Malik and direct government intervention did that get to say...the most devastating attack by terrorists in 2010 Pakistan in Lakki Marwat? There's a plethora of compelling examples I can give to show that there has been a deliberate damping down in the media of the need to highlight civillians deaths of pashtuns in the NWFP which has similarly been shrugged off by the ruling elite also.

This is undeniable.

Take civillians aside for a second, to highlight the lack of concern, our blessed NWFP police force [again majority pashtuns] wasn't even given bullet proof jackets till last month and this is the most volatile region of Pakistan.

Need I go on?

I would wager that the response to such an accident would have been largely similar in both cases. This has nothing to do with Pashtun blood and a lot to do with the circumstances in which the strike occurred.

In this case probably yes, but looking at the whole situation more attentively there's an undercurrent of discrimination and a cheapness associated with the lives of those who are killed in Pashtun heartlands. If it means me having to point it out, regardless of the love for my country I shall as injustice is the biggest catalyst for terrorism.
 
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Firstly, there was absolutely no need for PAF to carry out this strike. Given the amount of the civilans casualties in previous air strikes, and considering the place and high number of civilans residing there; PAF should've resorted to either a small strike or use of other method.

But the strike was carried out and as a restult 60+ civilans lost their lives. To kill off few alleged terrorist we killed over 60 innocents.

Ofcourse mistakes do happen, even the best of the best forces/spy agenices have made mistakes and we are, ofcourse, no exception. But the fact that our pathetic Government & Army is still denying that it has killed civilians is completely arrogant & shameful to say the least. No apology has been issued from our 'great' government, PAF has neither accepted nor apologised for this mistake. May i ask why? The poors have lost their lives and yet our government is insisting that dead were 'terrorist' and has announced no compensation whatsover.

Why can't they just admit it and apologise for this error? Maybe a honest apology from our government might give a little comfort to the victim's families? Reassuring people that the Armed Froces of Pakistan are there to protect the citizens of Pakistan might help PA's cause to fight real terrorist? But no one seems to care about it. God knows how many civilians our 'great Army' has killed.

Pakistan Army/ISI created this mess, used it's own citizens to achieve their own goals, armed hundreds of people in the name of 'Freedom Fighters', sold countless people to US and now it is clearing it's own mess.

Who has/or still is paying the price of patheitc decisions of our Generals & Government? Civilians & our poor soldiers! How sad!
 
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For this type of operation, Pakistan should take full assistance from US satellite to guide and do precision strike on target to avoid much collateral as possible. But some time these militants spread misinformation to gain sympathy from local and add more more energy for their dirty cause.
Well nobody knows how much time PAF gets time or get any live guidance to strike the target ,before the target saturated.
 
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