Pakistan and US holds joint Naval Exercises

[happybirthdaytoyou]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani and US Navy would conduct joint exercise “Inspired Union 06” from September 6.

The bilateral exercise would be conducted in the Northern Arabian Sea.

The purpose of exercise is advance maritime interdiction operations, counter terrorism and other wide range of professional exercises. The exercise would be conducted in three phases.

The units participating in the exercise from Pakistan Navy are PNS Shahjahan, PNS Badar, PNS Moawin, PNS/M Saad and from US Navy USS Nicholas, USS Mcfaul, USS Albuquerque, and US Aircraft carrier Enterprise.

Besides special service forces from both sides will also participate in the exercise.

Perspective

The Pakistan Navy announced Friday that it would conduct joint exercises with the US Navy in the Arabian Sea for two weeks, beginning Monday.

An Agosta 90-B submarine and three surface ships of the Pakistan Navy and a similar number of US ships and the aircraft carrier Enterprise are to participate, the announcement said.

It said the purpose was to gain experience in advanced maritime interdiction operations to counter terrorism.

Pakistan is a key ally of the United States in its global war on terrorism, and it recently relinquished the command of the naval task force of the anti-terrorism coalition in the area.●


Regards


happybirthdaytoyou

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I am very chary about these joint exercises since they pick up a whole lot of info about the other forces.

India also does these exercises and much information is known to them thereafter. They don't even bring their best while we put up our best and so they know everything.

Like the time they said that IAF pilots defeated the USAF. Humbug. They fielded second grade stuff.

 

[Averroes]

What happens on these joint exercises? Do Pakistani soldiers go on American ships to learn and Americans on Pakistani to teach and give tips?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

That is there, but they carry out manoeuvres jointly on a wargame plan.

There is also an exercise "enemy".

 

[blain2]

I am very chary about these joint exercises since they pick up a whole lot of info about the other forces.

India also does these exercises and much information is known to them thereafter. They don't even bring their best while we put up our best and so they know everything.

Like the time they said that IAF pilots defeated the USAF. Humbug. They fielded second grade stuff.

My apologies but I am not sure what the big concern with regards to the deployment of Agosta90Bs for this ex. is? USN has been exercising with many other Navies of the world with fairly comparitive sonar and combat systems capabilities as Pakistani Khalid series. I think while there may be valid concerns about what gets disclosed, I think in general these issues are thought through prior to commit of resources for an exercise.

For the USN, if interaction with the Agosta90B series is the main concern then they can also gather many of the specs from the French directly. Overall I think these exercises benefit the PN more than they benefit the other side.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Maybe I did not explain myself.

To a layman or an observer who is perfunctory, it may appear that there is no big concern.

However, the issue has to be seen with an in depth perspective.

There are many aspects that make up the forces. It is not merely equipment or its technical parameters.

Leadership, morale, tactics (each army/ navy would be different in this sphere), strategic planning, skills to operate the equipment, maintenance facilties, equipment downtime, capability to respond to tactical situations etc etc.

The ideal example would be that the Israeli army's lacklustre performance. The equipment that the hezbollah had was known, but the way the Hezbollah would use them with unique tactics is what was not known and that is what stumped the Israelis.

Once again, the equipment and all its characteristics were known, but not the tactics, or the skill they had acquired to use the equipment, or the leadership, or the morale inter alia other issues is what made all the difference!

Imagine the invincible Israeli Army which had defeated the Arabs repeatedly was stumped!

Had the Israelis seen the Hezbollah in action before with these equipment (let us hypothetically state in a joint exercise) , they would be better versed to take the Hezbollah on!

One of the cardinal principle is - Know your enemy!

There are no permanent friends or enemies, there are only permanent interests.

 

[Awesome]

Hmmm Salim, I highly doubt the US is getting the benefit our Navy's strategy... It's probably the other way round.

I'm pretty sure the US simulated the role of India and Pakistan had to fend off a major attack. Of course the US would not bring in its best, just as much as it's necessary to simulate India.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Asim,

Pakistan is a very sensitive area for the US strategic interest. I wonder if you heard Rice and even Albright (the other day when she was in Delhi to deliver a lecture)

The area from the Middle East right to Pakistan is a very turbulent area, strategically, politically and economically.

Forewarned is forearmed.

The US will not be foolish to simulate any country and India is not on her sights. The US will also not simulate China.

However, don't take my word for it.

 

[Awesome]

That depends on the sort of exercises conducted. It'd be really stupid of Pakistan to simulate an exercise of an invasion from the coast or fending off heavy bombardment of the coast.

Throughout history these exercises have been for Pakistan's benefit. The only benefit Pak can give the US is to teach it how to break through our defenses and that's just stupid.

So thats why, yeah I can't take your word for it. Got a better explanation other than common hysteria?

 

[happybirthdaytoyou]

Dear Respected Friends

I think US here for following reason

China insists its interest in Gwadar is purely commercial. No doubt it is hoping that the port will transform the economy of its landlocked Xinjiang province.

However, Gwadar port has a far-larger significance in China's scheme of things. It is said to be the western-most pearl in China's "string of pearls" strategy (this is a strategy that envisages building strategic relations with several countries along sea lanes from the Middle East to the South China Sea to protect China's energy interests and other security objectives), the other "pearls" being naval facilities in Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia and the South China Sea. [1]

China's interest in the Gwadar project stems from the port's proximity to the Strait of Hormuz. A base at Gwadar enables China to secure the flow of its oil - 60% of its energy supplies come from the Middle East - through the strait. More important, Gwadar is said to be a "listening post" for the Chinese, one that will enable Beijing to monitor movement of US and Indian ships in the region.


Regards


happybirthdaytoyou

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Asim,

What hysteria?

It appears that you are getting cold feet.

To me, it is routine.

Happybirthday's post should indicate something.

How come Pakistan or for that any other country do not go to the US to organise a joint exercise?

India did an airforce ex in Canada I know and then finito!

 

[blain2]

Maybe I did not explain myself.

To a layman or an observer who is perfunctory, it may appear that there is no big concern.

However, the issue has to be seen with an in depth perspective.

There are many aspects that make up the forces. It is not merely equipment or its technical parameters.

Leadership, morale, tactics (each army/ navy would be different in this sphere), strategic planning, skills to operate the equipment, maintenance facilties, equipment downtime, capability to respond to tactical situations etc etc.

The ideal example would be that the Israeli army's lacklustre performance. The equipment that the hezbollah had was known, but the way the Hezbollah would use them with unique tactics is what was not known and that is what stumped the Israelis.

Once again, the equipment and all its characteristics were known, but not the tactics, or the skill they had acquired to use the equipment, or the leadership, or the morale inter alia other issues is what made all the difference!

Imagine the invincible Israeli Army which had defeated the Arabs repeatedly was stumped!

Had the Israelis seen the Hezbollah in action before with these equipment (let us hypothetically state in a joint exercise) , they would be better versed to take the Hezbollah on!

One of the cardinal principle is - Know your enemy!

There are no permanent friends or enemies, there are only permanent interests.

Not sure if I agree with your point. Going by this, nobody would be involved in exercises at all.

Once again, the equipment and all its characteristics were known, but not the tactics, or the skill they had acquired to use the equipment, or the leadership, or the morale inter alia other issues is what made all the difference!

This is why I mentioned the point that when resources are committed and planning is being done for joint ex., the participants are very well aware of what makes sense for them to disclose and what not. This is not a new thing for PN...we have been involved in the "inspired xxx" series of exercises since the early 90s and prior to that with many other countries for the past 50+ years. Maybe USN can glean information with regards to Morale etc. (mind you, none of the equipment we operate is bleeding edge), however that only goes so far. The other side is tactics, well no body lays it bare for all others to see it. "Bubbles of water" has a pretty good insight on what typical PN exs. with other countries entail.

The positive side for PN is that we get to see how the world's most advanced Navy operates, their procedures and technology and that gives us an idea as to where our resources in the future should be diverted to.

 

[blain2]

Asim,

What hysteria?

It appears that you are getting cold feet.

To me, it is routine.

Happybirthday's post should indicate something.

How come Pakistan or for that any other country do not go to the US to organise a joint exercise?

India did an airforce ex in Canada I know and then finito!

I believe the reason we do not go to the US is because unlike the USN, PN is only a regional Navy and it makes sense for it to ex. with the local USN units in the region. PN is not the only one exercising with the USN btw. If you go to the USN site or to the Centcom site, you will see that they have ex. with pretty much every Navy in South Asia in the recent past. I do know why they do it, but its pretty much a norm.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Not sure if I agree with your point. Going by this, nobody would be involved in exercises at all.

Nobody used to exercise with each other before excepting the Alliances.

It is true that none of the equipment is bleeding edge. But how one uses it and the tactical skills and operating skill is absolutely critical.

The improvement in technology is basically to ensure realtime responses, and that is possible when one has developed their skills and procedures to reach such a stage. This latter issue is what interests.

Iraq War and the After Action Reports of various units are sought by most armies in the world. Not because they shall ever fight in Iraq, but to learn the responses that were there of the opposite armies so that the lesson learnt are incoroporated in their armies as also to understand the psyche of US and Iraqi forces as also the tactics and strategy involved.

The biggest lesson in Strategy that has emerged is that it is absolutely essential for any country wishing to undertake any action that would land them in a foreign country is to have a plan how to extricate themselves after the military aspect of the whole issue is over.

Why do armies try to find out more about everything of the adversary? By the logic given, then it would be adequate to just know the technical aspects of the equipment held by the adversary. The US has spent a huge sum to learn about Soviet tactics etc. The Revolution of Military Affairs that is the buzz of the world armies is but a fallout out from the Soviet thought of the same issue!

Many countries have the same equipment, but the employment is different and that makes all the difference. The hezbollah had A tank weapons, but they never applied it in the manner for what it was made for nor did they apply the tactics what all armies holding that equipment would have applied.

The US is having joint exercises with many countries. Interesting isn't it that the Chinese or the Russians are not having joint exercises with the US or any NATO countries! I wonder why not given the logic so far given.

 

[blain2]

The US is having joint exercises with many countries. Interesting isn't it that the Chinese or the Russians are not having joint exercises with the US or any NATO countries! I wonder why not given the logic so far given.

This is in the same context as Pakistan not exercising with the Indians as the two may very well be at each other's throats a few months after the exercises. Apparently, Pakistanis do not feel the same level of threat from the US the way that the Russians (who btw have trained together with the US Army) or Chinese would perceive it.

Chinese have invited the Indians to their large scale exercises so I am not sure if combined exercises are as problematic as you have made them out to be.

There is always a certain suspicion (and rightly so too), however most countries (even outside of alliances) have gone beyond it.