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Pakistan and Turkish democracy

Edevelop

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Pakistan
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Turkey used to be called the ‘the sick man of Europe’ and suffered inflation rates as high as 80 per cent per annum. But eventually, it fought back, reformed its economy with some tough decisions and made a remarkable economic turnaround. Successive International Monetary Fund support programmes also contributed in the economic recovery and consolidation. Though still somewhat volatile and beset with bouts of inflation every now and then, Turkey is not a risky economy any more for the simple reason that its economic managers are quick to make adjustments whenever needed. Turkey owes this turnaround also to political stability, heralded by the ruling Justice and Development Party — AKP.
At the same time, the grand political consensus on the separation of politics and religion remains strongly in place. The entire political discourse, therefore, continues to be embedded in universally acknowledged democratic values, despite the fact that outside modern Ankara, Izmir and Istanbul; Turkey, like Pakistan, is a religious country. That’s the reason why the AKP (a more ‘modern’ version of JI) didn’t dare to touch the overall secular framework (yet), though it has been placing its own people in key positions, preferring to promote bureaucrats who are more overtly religious, for example. Wine is no longer served in government functions. The hijab is okay. A friend once quoted an older Turk friend as saying that the country they had wanted to emulate in the past was Pakistan. But not the Pakistan of today, which they see slipping very quickly towards chaos.
It is, of course, debatable as to whether Pakistan can follow what Ataturk did over 90 years ago with brute power. The extent to which Ataturk went to remove reference to religion from every segment of the society was breathtaking and many observers believe, probably not possible today any more in an era of fast-moving, trans-nationalist Islamist ideologies, epitomised particularly by al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood. This may, however, meanwhile endanger the secular edifice that Ataturk raised in 1923.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, perhaps, also is feeling the pressure and facing the challenge on the governance front; he may be popular but maintaining that popularity is predicated on service delivery and economic consolidation. Most local and foreign observers do feel that the Turkish government can face off any ideological or political challenge if it stayed focused on economic expansion and stabilisation.
Yet, what deserves consideration is whether Pakistan can emulate some of the fundamental principles that guide the Turkish model of democracy.
Other Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia have also gone through more or less similar experiences which can indeed serve as role model for a country like Pakistan. If the entire education system is subject to state regulations, why cannot the private religious education establishment i.e. madaris be subject to those regulations?
The monopoly of religious thought and dissemination in private hands is risky and fraught with numerous pitfalls. This is what we see happening in Pakistan, led by the five Wifaq’s — Religious Boards of five Sects — and the religio-political parties. The latter have traditionally been unpopular but still benefited from the expedience of mainstream political parties. This way they also created space for their affiliated mosques and madaris, even though many of them were raised illegally. Ruling parties often look the other way when a Wifaq-related cleric encroaches on state or private land.
Based on the experiences of Turkey, Malaysia or Indonesia, Pakistan’s mainstream political parties, perhaps, can help initiate a debate on the subject. They need courage and a vision for a liberal and prosperous Pakistan to embark on that path. This, however, must not be misconstrued as an attempt to infringement of religious freedom. Everybody is and must remain free to practice faith. But that practice must not become an instrument of injustice, discrimination and intolerance.

Pakistan and Turkish democracy – The Express Tribune
 
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I do not know about Pakistan well, but as a brotherly nation I will poke my nose and give some free advices, which apply to our country as well. I think we need to organize our civil society as much as possible. Personality cult or partisan politics is a diversion and not a proper way to empower people, as it provides a tool for the corrupt elite, the feudals, the Army etc. to use the media to mislead people and create an illusion of democracy. Imran Khan may be better than Zardari, Gilani, Nawaz et al, but the system should not be dependent on specific people, because then these individuals become single points of failure. That is why it is better to create enduring systems that do not depend on specific individuals or political dynastic families.

To break free of current vicious cycle, I would encourage organizing of civil society, using the web, social media, twitter etc. Organize, organize and organize. Anyone who can use the internet at some level and participate in forums like this, can be called part of civil society in any country. But different web tools are needed to organize, tools that has elements of social media and voting features etc. And lastly web based software platforms are only tools of organizing and communication among team members, what is also needed is on the ground, off line meetings and group formation, based in local communities within the country and in overseas diaspora communities.

Turkish model is ok, but every country has its own unique initial conditions, constraints and set of circumstances and situations to work with, and because of this each country must blaze their own unique trail for empowerment of their people.
 
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A lot of things need to be done. People in our countries (Pakistan & Bangladesh) think that development is foreign investment, developing roads, developing massive skyline, luxury cars, and luxury cell phones. Perhaps maybe its globalization that has effected world materialism and Western influence that has brought this perception. When these people in the government build skylines and highways, it really pisses me off. I mean this whole development is for the elite class, about 10-15% of the people in the whole population are the ones that have cars... If transportation is really needed then imo, metro/subway system is efficient. its cheap where everyone can afford and plus everyone gets a chance to travel from point A to point B.

What i really wish is development that has something to do with cultural element i.e people wearing shalwar kameez, dhoti recovering own traditional unique architectures, teaching own languages, history in schools, and etc. This is how you achieve nationalism. Moreover, eliminating poverty and people having equal size property share should be considered. This will not only stop feudalism, but also competition for personal gains. A free health care system must be considered. How can that be done? well if the people can give taxes. Obviously for all this, law and order should be the first step forward.

In Pakistan, these Khans, Gilanis, Sharrifs, Zardaris, Chaudharies, MQM have killed everything. Their pattern of democracy is either corrupt, or Western/Indian influenced to eventually become puppets...
For all this, i blame the people. They have lost interest to come outside their shell. When the Arab Spring was going on, these people should have gained at least some momentum.

As far as Turkey in concerned, i think we should just learn the positive things that they have done in their country. We should not copy but just learn the skills needed to deal with economy and people.

There is absolutely no harm in learning from other countries. Even the British learned a lot. For example, they learned how to grow tea beans in their backyard from India, and Kenya. The Americans learned all their Engineering from Germany, the Israelis learning how to convert a plain desert into wonders of agriculture from Americans, the Christians influencing to develop something as unique as Gohtic churches from Islamic mosques, and most importantly, the WHOLE WORLD LEARNING FROM KING HAMURABI OF IRAQ TO DEVELOP A LAW AND ORDER LEGAL SYSTEM.

A developing country like Pakistan needs to understand first the difference between learning and copying 100%
 
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Pakistan could've been one of the best countries in the world right now if few selfish people did not loot the country and actually did something for Pakistanis,

now what we really need to do is declare education emergency like Imran Khan says.
 
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even though pakistan isnt meant to be secular, i would love pakistan to be a secular welfare state :pakistan:
 
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even though pakistan isnt meant to be secular, i would love pakistan to be a secular welfare state :pakistan:

A welfare state gives great reputation in the world, but in the end all of the Scandinavia's leaders weeped because of high debt and literallly no economy.
 
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Turkey became a secular and a democratic country by force of few not by nations will... I think in this age it is very hard if not impossible to repeat that. To be honest, Mustafa Kemal used brute force to supress the voice of Caliphate and Sultans in nation and with state backed education system it tought people about respecting others rights, secularism and democracy... We became a democracy by dictatorship not bypopular support. Believe me I have no problem with what Mustafa Kemal did and I love the guy as much as my own parents :D I wouldn't enjoy the rights I have now without his idealism :D

Turkey gained the idea of secularism and democracy thanks to Mustafa Kemal and under his leadership lived her greatest advancement but unfourtanetly his short life wouldn't let him lead his country but we gained that advancement by AKP and their clever politics too. Hope it will be permanent.

And, I really don't think that Pakistan needs any other state as example. Pakistan is a nation of 170+ million people with great history and will to change their own destiny. They need and will create their own version of democracy and social life. They have the muslims of the world and even though some of us are not believers of islam *cough me cough* Turks will always love and support Pakistan and her people :kiss3::kiss3:
 
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France and other anti-Islamic Eurotrash zone countries did Turkey a favor by blocking it's membership. Economically, look where Eurotrash stands and where Turkey stands.

So happy to see a brotherly Muslim country like Turkey rise :)
 
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Turkey became a secular and a democratic country by force of few not by nations will... I think in this age it is very hard if not impossible to repeat that. To be honest, Mustafa Kemal used brute force to supress the voice of Caliphate and Sultans in nation and with state backed education system it tought people about respecting others rights, secularism and democracy... We became a democracy by dictatorship not bypopular support. Believe me I have no problem with what Mustafa Kemal did and I love the guy as much as my own parents :D I wouldn't enjoy the rights I have now without his idealism :D

Turkey gained the idea of secularism and democracy thanks to Mustafa Kemal and under his leadership lived her greatest advancement but unfourtanetly his short life wouldn't let him lead his country but we gained that advancement by AKP and their clever politics too. Hope it will be permanent.

And, I really don't think that Pakistan needs any other state as example. Pakistan is a nation of 170+ million people with great history and will to change their own destiny. They need and will create their own version of democracy and social life. They have the muslims of the world and even though some of us are not believers of islam *cough me cough* Turks will always love and support Pakistan and her people :kiss3::kiss3:

Thank you , we love Turks too. Pakistan was meant to be an "Islamic-Democratic-Welfare-State" which ensures equal rights for all citizens & minorities. We need not secularism as no secular country is truly secular , the very idea of separation of church and state was a western idea and they had a LONG brutal history of church control over taxes , marriages , resources , private life and what not.

Secularism was a desperate idea , generated in Imperial Germany to get rid of Church domination , which also lead to the creation of "Protestant" faith in Christianity. on the contrary , Islam has NEVER been that strict on its people , its NOT an organized religion with a FIGURE HEAD. Mosques have NEVER collected taxes but they were collected by another institution called Bayt al-mal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Bait ul mal or Tax department.

Church ruled entire Europe with an Iron fist , where other factions were brutalized , it controlled private life even sex positions.
Pope was the figurehead and all in all leader.

Unlike Christianity , Islam offers the concept of a Democracy with a figure head an Amir who doesn't have to be a mullah- Unlike the church council system where pastors and priests were the only representatives - Islam offers a Parliament - a Shura. Shura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shura (Arabic: شورى shūrā) is an Arabic word for "consultation". The Quran and Muhammad encourage Muslims to decide their affairs in consultation with those who will be affected by that decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_democracy

Shura is mentioned three times in the Quran as a praiseworthy activity, and is a word often used in organizing the affairs of a masjid, and an Islamic organization, and in parliaments on democratic votes.

So Islam is VASTLY different and has a well established DEMOCRATIC political structure which would never ensure a complete control by Mullahs - The idea of Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah , was to create a MODERN version of the Islamic system which he thought would last much strongly than a western secular democracy in a country like Pakistan.

We need not secularism , we need to look at our own roots and find our own way in our own way !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economic_jurisprudence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking

* No other religion offers a full scale Soci-0-eco-political structure like Islam , all we need is to Modernize it .


Regards:
 
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Saudi Arabia regime including strict religion should be great model for Turkey.

Deno loves Saudi Arabia and ninja dress requirements, she should try it! :kiss3:
 
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Thank you , we love Turks too. Pakistan was meant to be an "Islamic-Democratic-Welfare-State" which ensures equal rights for all citizens & minorities. We need not secularism as no secular country is truly secular , the very idea of separation of church and state was a western idea and they had a LONG brutal history of church control over taxes , marriages , resources , private life and what not.

Secularism was a desperate idea , generated in Imperial Germany to get rid of Church domination , which also lead to the creation of "Protestant" faith in Christianity. on the contrary , Islam has NEVER been that strict on its people , its NOT an organized religion with a FIGURE HEAD. Mosques have NEVER collected taxes but they were collected by another institution called Bayt al-mal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Bait ul mal or Tax department.

Church ruled entire Europe with an Iron fist , where other factions were brutalized , it controlled private life even sex positions.
Pope was the figurehead and all in all leader.

Unlike Christianity , Islam offers the concept of a Democracy with a figure head an Amir who doesn't have to be a mullah- Unlike the church council system where pastors and priests were the only representatives - Islam offers a Parliament - a Shura. Shura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So Islam is VASTLY different and has a well established DEMOCRATIC political structure which would never ensure a complete control by Mullahs - The idea of Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah , was to create a MODERN version of the Islamic system which he thought would last much strongly than a western secular democracy in a country like Pakistan.

We need not secularism , we need to look at our own roots and find our own way in our own way !

Socialism and Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Islamic economic jurisprudence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Islamic banking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* No other religion offers a full scale Soci-0-eco-political structure like Islam , all we need is to Modernize it .


Regards:

That is why I wrote Pakistanis will decide their own social life. Democracy is not liberity. Democracy will take it roots from nations fundumental values and that value for Pakistan is Islam. That is why it is very normal and to be honest crucial for Pakistan to have Islamic roots in her constution.

And like you said, Islam expect for few things can be able to adjust in this ages need for humans with easily but the hard thing is protecting Islam from people who will missuse it or twist it for their own gain like what happened in Sudan which used Islam as a excuse to massacere innocent civilians...
 
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even though pakistan isnt meant to be secular, i would love pakistan to be a secular welfare state :pakistan:

Actually Pakistan did not start off being the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan". It was just the Republic of Pakistan (those were the good days), there's much debate on whether Pakistan was supposed to be secular or not.
 
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