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Pakistan and Turkish democracy

, the very idea of separation of church and state was a western idea and they had a LONG brutal history of church control over taxes , marriages , resources , private life and what not.


Aeronaut

I don't think that's true historically Ibn Rushd/Averroes is considered by some historians the "Father of Secularism". His secular philosophy apparently influenced western Europe after his treatises were translated to Latin and later English (afaik).

Actually Pakistan did not start off being the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan". It was just the Republic of Pakistan (those were the good days), there's much debate on whether Pakistan was supposed to be secular or not.

How do you know they were the good days? The reason Gen. Ayub Khan overthrew the Democratically elected Govnt in 1958 was because the country was suffering economically and the government was extremely corrupt. Gen. Ayub Khan did a popular martial law overthrow and gave Pakistan its first true industrialization period, many factories and infrastructure projects were developed under his rule.

So 1950's were not positive, if someone would like to argue that go ahead, but the 60's was a decade Pakistan was economically strong and vibrant, and was a rising power in Asia.
 
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but the 60's was a decade Pakistan was economically strong and vibrant, and was a rising power in Asia.

That's why I said that.

Even the 50's were probably way better than the Pakistan of 2012! And how do i know that? Parents, Grandparents, articles, etc.
 
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Not at all, 1950s were terrible, absolutely terrible. 2012 Pakistan is much better off. Though it's hard to compare decade to decade, but any scholar or student well versed in Pakistani history can tell you 1950's Pakistan was bad enough that martial law had to be declared because the democratic Government had failed miserably.

2012 Pakistan is much better of. Also you need to have better sources than parents and grandparents they will have a bias opinion, some elderly people always say the old decades were better often because they have little understand of today's technology and today's modern world which has confused them. A lot of elderly people say their days were good, that's what they believe.

Though historically there was nothing good about the 1950's besides the 1958 take over. Also what articles have you read that said the 50's were good? Lol not buying it.
 
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Here is something I found for you to read and it helps to shed light on the 1950's.

Inspired by the West’s suburban expansion in the 1950s, Pakistan’s ruling general Mohammad Ayub Khan envisioned many of Karachi’s poor lifted into decent suburban lifestyles to the north of the city. With help from the Ford Foundation, the famous Greek planner Constantino Doxiadis was hired to create, from scratch, a self-contained community for at least a half million people. Doxiadis was careful to take design cues from local architecture and cultural preferences, but the design – and he recorded doubts about this in his journal all along– just could not be fitted to Karachi’s economic situation.

This source even specifically credited Gen. Ayub Khan with his reform and construction plans for Karachi. Now the source is a blog and I usually do not quote from blogs but the information is historically true an verifiable.


The source talks about a book called "Instant City: Life and Death in Karachi" by Steve Inskeep (NPR host). So the information apparently is from the book but posted on a blog.

Source: Discovering Urbanism
 
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I don't think that's true historically Ibn Rushd/Averroes is considered by some historians the "Father of Secularism". His secular philosophy apparently influenced western Europe after his treatises were translated to Latin and later English (afaik).



How do you know they were the good days? The reason Gen. Ayub Khan overthrew the Democratically elected Govnt in 1958 was because the country was suffering economically and the government was extremely corrupt. Gen. Ayub Khan did a popular martial law overthrow and gave Pakistan its first true industrialization period, many factories and infrastructure projects were developed under his rule.

So 1950's were not positive, if someone would like to argue that go ahead, but the 60's was a decade Pakistan was economically strong and vibrant, and was a rising power in Asia.

I don't know why but so called 'Democratically elected Prime Ministers' have always been corrupt!

- Liquat Ali Khan
- Khawaja Nazimmudin
- Noor Ul-Amin
- Iskander Mirza
- Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
- Benazir Bhutto
- Nawaz Sharrif
- Chaudhary Shujat Hussain
- Shaukat Aziz
- Yousuf Raza Gillani

Army Chief Generals are not supposed to interfere in politics, however, to me it looks like it was necessary.

-Noor Ul-Amin, a Bengali Prime Minister of Pakistan during his tenure made Bangladesh's movement strong. It was necessary for General Yahya Khan to come to power to try to stop this.

- Iskandar Mirza was a Bengali President on October 7, appeared on national radio declaring the with the view to introducing a new constitution; "more suited to the genius of the Pakistan nation",[10] on November 1958, as he believed democracy was unsuited to Pakistan "with its 15% literacy rate He never had a very high opinion about Pakistani politicians and once referred to them as "mostly crooks and scalawags".
Ayub Khan took over and as correctly you have mentioned, he brought Pakistan's first true industrialization period, many factories and infrastructure projects were developed under his rule.

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto:
" Bhutto played a very negative rule in this whole affair. He said "Hum Yahan Tum Wahan" meaning you (I.E. East Pakistani now the Bengalis) are no longer compatible. Also his speech in the UN Security Council in response to the motion presented to end the war was very embarrassing for the nation as a whole where he tore the resolution papers in front of the media and said "we will Fight" although Pakistan Forces had to surrender a few days later."
He was also charged for Murder of a PPP member
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Zia Ul Haq took over.

Mian Mohammed Nawaz Sharrif:
Nawaz had issues with judiciary. In one, he was about to transfer the country's power to just himself, and second he had cases... As per Musharraf, he played role in Kargil as well...
Musharraf took over...

Asif Ali Zardari:
Zardari's green light to U.S to capture OBL in Pakistan was embarrassing for Pak army.
Zardari's letter to U.S via Haqqani was against Pak army. He planned to demoralize it...
Kiyani could have taken control....

So, i see Military dictators coming to power as 'necessary' to overcome corrupt 'democratic leaders'.
 
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Actually Pakistan did not start off being the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan". It was just the Republic of Pakistan (those were the good days), there's much debate on whether Pakistan was supposed to be secular or not.

Those were not good days , this is empty rhetoric being beaten up by either liberal fascists or people who are totally ill informed.
From 1947-1956 Pakistan was NOT an independent country it was a dominion of the British Commonwealth. British King George VI was the king of Pakistan uptil 1952 and Queen Elizabeth was the Queen of Pakistan from 1952-1956.

In 1956 Pakistan became an Independent country and declared itself an Islamic republic as it was MEANT TO BE according to Pakistan resolution. Many of our friends have no clue what so ever that our first democratic elections were held in 1970 & a new constitution was adopted by the Civilian elected govt which reaffirmed Pakistan as a democratic islamic state.

It sets my wits on fire to hear the stupid claims as Pak was meant to be secular yada yada , as i remember those millions of men and women who left their businesses , homes , properties to migrate - if not for an ideology then for what , peanuts??

Its FAR from being what Quaid wanted it to be , thats another story.
 
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Ayub Khan was best leader of Pakistan, and Zia ul Haq was the worst and he made Pakistan introduced to extremism
 
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Yeah, arguably Gen. Ayub Khan was perhaps the best leader of Pakistan. He was also internationally respected. He knew how to talk persuasively to people. He really had the country in mind.
 
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The question is whether Pakistan can transform itself from a security state that continues to behave with a cold war mindset whilst the past three decades have seen the world change from a bi-polar to a uni-polar and then to a multi-polar world.

Until and unless the axis of the Army, the United States and the right-wing is broken, neither the reconstruction of the Pakistani state nor the so-called democratization of Pakistan will alter the fundamental nature of the security state or bring peace or prosperity to Pakistans 170 million people, nearly eighty per cent whom live below the poverty line of $2 a day.

Pakistan’s elites have little interest in the reconstruction of the state because they have the most to lose if power is truly exercised by the people. The army has no incentive to break the axis of trouble (a legacy of the great game and India-centric policies) because it thrives on the perpetuation of conflicts in the region and the largess it receives from the United States.

And what about the mullahs? They have thrived due to a combination of factors. Most important among the factors is the failure of the so-called mainstream parties to provide honest, competent, and credible leadership.

It is customary to blame Zia and his successors, including Musharraf, for the growth of the Frankenstein forces of religious extremism and terrorism, but the buck does not stop there. In many other countries, for example, in Latin America, the unholy alliance between the local military, rightwing forces and Americans had undermined democracy but the nationalist and democratic forces eventually triumphed because they had capable and credible leadership.

Pakistan has been cursed by civilian and military leaders who are too eager to follow the US agenda. From Ayub to Kayani, there is not a single army chief who can claim to have pursued Pakistan’s strategic interests independent of US goals in the region.

Pakistanis will have to break this nexus between the corrupt elites and the west if they want their country to be a self respecting sovereign state that works to promote the interests of its people and not of its corrupt and selfish elites.

A polarized Pakistani society suffers from a serious leadership crisis. The so-called mainstream parties have failed to provide competent and credible leadership. Unscrupulous politicians has led to the demonization of politics to a degree that save for incompetent and corrupt individuals like Asif Zardari or Nawaz Sharif, or creations of the establishment like the MQM’s neo-fascist Altaf Hussain or Maulana Fazlur Rehman (infamous for his double dealings), few wish to navigate the treacherous and murderous waters of stormy Pakistani politics.

The Way Forward

> The army leadership can and must take the lead and put India, Afghanistan, Kashmir, and nuclear issues on the back burner and focus on nation rebuilding, strengthening and helping the civilian institutions stand on their feet to perform their roles without aspiring to do the job itself.

> Pakistan needs effective governance and to create fiscal space to make investments to repair and rebuild its administrative and physical infrastructure. This can be achieved by downsizing of federal government’s military and civil bureaucracy, decentralizing governance by empowering provincial and local governments, strengthening their capacity, and by mobilizing domestic resources.

> Pakistan needs to spend 8-10% of its GDP on education and infrastructure. This is not possible without drastic cuts in defense and establishment expenditure, reducing corruption, and more and better tax collection.

> But all of the above requires peace and putting an end to all external and internal conflicts and restoration of conditions that are conducive to resource mobilization, economic reforms, and restoring order in the society.

Pakistan has no other option now but to change its national priorities and external policies to find a way to transform Pakistan which continues to be in a state of constant tension with its neighboring countries to a modern, tolerant, federal, and plural democracy with a sustainable economic development model which is appropriate for a country with one of the world’s largest, fastest growing, and youngest populations.

Excerpted by me from an interesting article from Here
 
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Good discussions in this thread, we need more like this to take care of national business than covering sensational news or mudslinging between two opposing sides.

Army led authoritarian rule was good for some countries at the initial stages of development, but eventually too much power concentrated on too few hands bring corruption. I have seen this happen in Bangladesh, starting with Zia, who was personally honest, according to some, but his party BNP was not and he killed a lot of fellow army officers and other political competitors. Ershad was thoroughly corrupt. The latest Army led caretaker govt. rule for 2 years 2007-2009 was also corrupt, despite their incessant noise about anti corruption.

Corruption is an endemic human problem. It is in every country, it is just a matter of degree.

Army officers are trained to fight wars, not to manage countries. Their personal honesty is a matter of luck, but their interference in politics hurts the country in the long term.

Since the countries in South Asia are more similar to each other than the rest of the world, we should look at the experience in South Asia. India had no army rule since 1947. Although they had bad leadership, eventually the democratic leadership matured to some extent and the result is definitely better than other countries in the region. Bangladesh had democracy since 1991 and despite the cat fights between our two Begums, more democratization have helped Bangladesh, our democracy is getting more matured everyday. Eventually I am confident that we will be able to evict Indian influence from our country, using democracy and people power.

As for Pakistan, I think democracy is still nascent. The debate should not be about whether there should be democracy or Army rule, but rather how we can improve the democracy so it can represent 99% people better and as a result can serve people's need better. For this I suggested internet and social media based organizing of civil society.

I have a vision for Bangladesh. There is about 3-5 million netizens from our country. I think the number is probably higher in Pakistan. If we can unite them in a dedicated social media platform like facebook and start having discussions about what do next, plan and then take actions, within country and in overseas diaspora communities, it will be possible to circumvent corrupt political parties, support independent candidates and bring them to power. I personally do not like political parties in a democracy. I think they are a vehicle to concentrate power for the elite and buy off the politicians. I want the people, the civil society to be organized and united and scatter the corrupt politicians, who are essentially the tools of the corrupt elite.

About Islam, when we have a true democracy, it is upto the people, the majority to rewrite the constitution. If the people make a mistake and then they face opposition from the world, I am sure people will learn and correct their mistakes. So people must be empowered, be in the driver's seat, allowed to make mistakes and then learn from their mistakes. This is the path to become a matured democracy, which automatically ushers in development, as people themselves would figure out what direction they should go to improve their lives, in economics, trade, future union possibilities, foreign policy, in short all aspects of running a nation state.

Leaving leadership to some cult personality, whether they were a popular cricket star or a rising star in the Army, I believe, is not the solution. The solution is to unite the netizens, the civil society and let this whole aware part of the society lead towards a more mature democracy. Please do not believe in the magic of some leader, instead, believe in yourself and unite others who are like yourself.
 
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