Pakistan and Israel

[blain2]

There is no harm when parties to the conflict in the Middle East have diplomatic relations with them. Yet the issue is that when Pakistan, as a matter of courtesy, asks Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinians about establishing ties then we get a less than encouraging response.

Having ties is not a problem. Its silly to not talk in this world where geographical barriers are coming down every day. All the Arab countries have ties with India with whom we have a bit of an issue wrt Kashmir however Pakistan has never stopped these countries from maintaining relations with India. If anything their ties with India have helped the situation by bringing more pragmatism and understanding of the conflict for these countries. Pakistan's case would be no different. We may be able to help broker something that the two camps (Israelis and Arabs) have not been able to do so amongst themselves with the US prodding.

 

[sameer-abc]

Well one argument would be a general sense of solidarity with Palestinians as our Kashmiri brothers are suffering the same fate as the Palestinians. I agree with the view Abu Zolfikar had, that once a Palestinian state is established we should initiate diplomatic relationships with Israel.

So are our brothers in Uighirs (China), why not side with them?

 

[Vajra_Yuddh]

So are our brothers in Uighirs (China), why not side with them?

Not possible; they are foreign agents attempting to sabotage great China's rise. China is always right.

 

[Safriz]

^^^^^^ TROLL ATTACK

 

[Kambojaric]

So are our brothers in Uighirs (China), why not side with them?

Wont bother replying to you, have had this discussion several times before to no result, your obviously one of the ever increasing indian troll army invading this forum. Enjoy the thanks you will get from your fellow trollers. Good day

 

[Safriz]

This happens to be the 1000th comment on the subject..most probably everything relevant to the topic has been said already.Unknowingly we might be participating in a circular argument by posting any further in this thread.

 

[muse]

Yet the issue is that when Pakistan, as a matter of courtesy, asks Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinians about establishing ties then we get a less than encouraging response

Pakistanis are supposed to decide Pakistani policy - after all which Egyptian or Jordanian asked Pakistan, as a matter of courtesy or not, what Pakistan and Pakistanis thought of them establishing diplomatic relations with Israel?? Or Russia or India or China?

Why does Pakistan have to give non-Pakistanis, any kind of say in the affairs of Pakistan? We gave Saudis a say in the affairs of Pakistan and see where that got us, terror central.

one argument would be a general sense of solidarity with Palestinians as our Kashmiri brothers are suffering the same fate as the Palestinians

But we not only talk to the Indian, we implore the Indian to talk with us in every international forum - should we stop talking to India in solidarity with the captives of kashmir??

Friends, please craft meaningful and unassailable arguments for your positions - these were neither meaningful (in the sense that they are illogical, they defeat the very purpose they are supposedly designed to further) and are easily defeated.

Now, it could be that since the opposition can craft neither meaningful nor unassailable arguments and can only offer delaying tactics, (once the Palestinian state is done , once every instance of discrimination has stopped, once hell freezes over, etc..) might mean that such arguments cannot be craft because the position is just plain not defensible?

 

[Kambojaric]

But we not only talk to the Indian, we implore the Indian to talk with us in every international forum - should we stop talking to India in solidarity with the captives of kashmir??

Friends, please craft meaningful and unassailable arguments for your positions - these were neither meaningful (in the sense that they are illogical, they defeat the very purpose they are supposedly designed to further) and are easily defeated.

Now, it could be that since the opposition can craft neither meaningful nor unassailable arguments and can only offer delaying tactics, (once the Palestinian state is done , once every instance of discrimination has stopped, once hell freezes over, etc..) might mean that such arguments cannot be craft because the position is just plain not defensible?

Has this talking with India brought out anything productive? Their stand is firm which goes right against our stand. What is there to talk about then? Situtation in Kashmir hasnt changed abit despite all the attempts of talking.

How is not initiating a relationship with Israel as long as a Palestinian state is created illogical? What has Egypt or Jordan gained by accepting Israel? They suffer the same problems that any developing country is suffering e.g. corruption. These muslim countries arent really viewed any differently than other muslim countries who have not accepted Israel. The only exception is Turkey but they have come so far because of their own will, power and belief in their ideology.

 

[muse]

How is not initiating a relationship with Israel as long as a Palestinian state is created illogical? What has Egypt or Jordan gained by accepting Israel?

Surely that is for the Egyptian and Jordanian people to answer, but one obvious answer is that there's been no war between these countries since they have diplomatic relations -- See, not having diplomatic relations is a reflection of an abnormal state of affairs, not the other way around.

Has this talking with India brought out anything productive? Their stand is firm which goes right against our stand. What is there to talk about then? Situtation in Kashmir hasnt changed abit despite all the attempts of talking.

Yet it hold the potential to bring about a general peace - can you think of any other way short of genocide??

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

Sir, if you care to check history of India, you will get all the answers.

India tried to keep its foreign policy as independent as possible. And as a result, it has got lot of allies.

India recognized Israel in 1992. Do you know this?

Indians thought ahead of us. We are victims of our "extremist mentality."

Ever thought about Israeli factor when talking about our relationship with USA? Here is a hint for you: powerful Jewish Lobby in US

Since, we don't recognize existence of Israel; the jewish lobby in US does not have any soft corner for us.

Also, beggers are not respected in this world. Begging is forbidden even in Islam. Think about this.

We need to determine that where we went wrong instead of putting all the blame on others.

And who is stopping us from creating diplomatic ties with Cuba or other nations that we don't have any issues with? I am in support of developing good relationship with as many nations as possible.

assalam alaikum,

Brother 1st dont call me sir ( my request ) i am here to learn and chip in if i have something to say and we can be right some times or wrong.

When did i say we dont need independent decision making ( as a matter of fact i strongly advocate 4 that and want our nation to stop licking the hand of their masters who ever they r ).

i was quarter of century ago for my undergrade studies in the states. During my univercity time watchin political programs was like a routine and traveling on my car from north to south ( new york to miami ) if i didnot have any matches for the sport that i played.
So i heard on tv about the jewish lobby and saw on ground their actual power and how the big is u.s might. wat i meant is i m not living in a cave. But the problem is when musharraf agreed to help the u.s he promised the nation or told us he did this to save our kashmir policy and atomic program. atomic program we everyday getting complaints about it and kashmir policy is lost.

About begging brother we have great land talented ppl just stop choosing the corrupt persons. Who is stopping u from good governance? fighting the corruption?. If we show some independence we will get the respect by our means. U want the jewish lobby to give u clean slate, and when they want they will make it dirty it means u will be always blackmailed.

By the way i m kind of person who blames himself if something go wrong so i m not blaming anyother country for our failures. If is our failures and we need to deal with them with our means and by ourself to become independent.

nice to hear from u.

ALLAH HUM SUB KA BHALA KARAIN AAMEEEN

TARIQ

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

assalam alaikum,

Egypt and Jordan have borders with israel so if they make peace to stop war it is ok with us but i would argue the same we dont have any borders with israel wat is need to hurry. we can live millions of years without going to war with each other.

TARIQ

 

[muse]

Egypt and Jordan have borders with israel so if they make peace to stop war it is ok with us but i would argue the same we dont have any borders with israel wat is need to hurry

And Egypt and Jordan are also Arabs, and since we are not arabs we should not have relations with anybody?

Enslave the mind and body will follow

wat is need to hurry

What is the reason to delay? We have already shown the idea that we must wait till there is a Palestinian state to be hollow, after all, why not wait till hell freezes over?

All we have asked for was one, just one real, one logical argument as to why Pakistan must not have diplomatic relations with Israel?

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

assalam alaikum

mentioning of borders was in response to the fact that they have wars with each other IN UR POST.

TARIQ

 

[Kambojaric]

"Surely that is for the Egyptian and Jordanian people to answer, but one obvious answer is that there's been no war between these countries since they have diplomatic relations -- See, not having diplomatic relations is a reflection of an abnormal state of affairs, not the other way around."

True, there's been no war but once Egypt used to be the centre of power in the Arab world. Arab states used to look up to Nasser for guidance. All that is gone now so by accepting Israel they have in essence accepted defeat. If we were to revoke our stance on Kashmir today it would ultimately be seen as an acceptance of defeat by our people.

What we are getting to eventually is that what does a conflict so far away have anything to do with us. After that it is entirely upto the individual. Remember Pakistan was created on the name of Islam. I am no mullah or anything, dont get me wrong but we are only the 2nd state in Islams history to have been created on its name and with that i believe comes certain responsibilities. Yes we wont be able to make any meaningful difference in that conflict but we can atleast maintain our position that the people of Palestine who have been subject to crusades and imperialism deserve our empathy. As said it is entirely upto the indivudual. You probably disagree with me, have no problem with that but i think it is wrong to degrade the genuine feeling of empathy with the Palestinian people that exists amongst Pakistanis and throughout the muslim world in general.


Yet it hold the potential to bring about a general peace - can you think of any other way short of genocide??

Well in that sense anything has the potential to happen, even a Palestinian state has to potential to come into existence. However what are the chances of Pak-Indo talks actually getting anywhere? As said our stances are totally opposite to each other. It would be political suicide if any government actually concedes parts or the whole of Kashmir to the other. That government can forget to be elected again. In short unfortunately it may sound harsh but only might can bring about a change. Either that or you maintain the status quo.

 

[LeGenD]

How is it irrelevant to explain the basis of their political unrest? and the reason why they wont be able to unanimously accept us as friends ...is irrelevant?

Do you think that Israel does not have a proper foreign policy to manage its external affairs?

Point is that we do not want to give Israel a chance.

Have a look at the case of Indo-Israeli relations:

India is sympathetic towards palestinian cause and also condemned Israeli action against Lebanon. And yet both of these countries have a positive relationship and they are helping each other in various sectors.

Is Israel hesitant to respond to diplomatic overtures from us?

Here is the answer. In short, it is not.

Do we pay attention to Israeli views regarding us?

At the Israeli Foreign Ministry, the tone is understated. "We have no diplomatic or border problems with Pakistan," the ministry's deputy director-general Zvi Gabay said. "We have no reason for any hostility. We would be happy to have relations with Pakistan."

Source: Asia Times - Israel cautious over Pakistan's overtures

In short, we do not pay attention to Israeli views.