Pakistan Air Force's acquisitions for future

[That Guy]

Rafale is a certainty will start rolling in from early 2016, the PAF FA program is going great guns and the FGFA deal has been tweaked to a single seater version now and India is to receive it's first prototypes shortly - what will go into it is some of our own avionics - similar to the SU30 MKI program, tentative production has been scheduled to start by 2020. The AMCA though is not moving at all, they are still finalizing the design, which most likely will be finalized by 2014.

What is PAF's plan for this decade? - I don't see much in the pipeline - except getting a few squadrons of JF 17 blk 1's. There is no replacements of the lost awacs scheduled. Let's not even talk of a 5th Gen program for PAF now.

Right now, the plan is to get the JF-17s out, and help the government with the economy. The long run, it's plans are to acquire the J-10s as an alternative to the F-16s, no one expects the PAF to consider a 5th Gen before 2020, which is around the same time that India is expected to start inducting the FGFA.

PAF FUTURE ASPIRATIONS are MASSIVE

To Counter the ENEMY.

The Enemy THAT ENJOYS a 10-1 ADAVANTAGE over PAF in annual AIR FORCE BUDGET

CURRENTLY enjoys a 3-1 superiority in BVR capable fighters....

And an ENEMY that currently OFFICALLY IS in joint development of a FIFTH GENERATION fighter the FGFA with RUSSIA.

_______________________________

I HAVE INTENTIONAL highlighted those 3 facts BECAUSE MOST PAKISTANIS diasreguard them. BUT ALL ARE REAL ISSUES.

let me explain

1. PAF annual air force allocation is aroound $1.2 billion ie 20% of its total budget
IAF is around $12 billion OR 30 % of its defense budget..

2. India currently has 300 su30mki mig29smt mig29k & mirage2000 4th gen fighters
PAF has 100 F16/J17 combined

3. India is officially a PARTNER in the PAK FA FGFA no secret THE ENTIRE world KNOWS this.

PAF is hoping & anticiapting THAT THE CHINEASE devope a low cost J31 in the next decade AND THAT they can buy this

on other words a COMPLETELY NON PLAYER NON INVERSTOR


those 3 realities SUM UP THE PAF CHALLENGE & ASPIRATIONS...

Haven't you and I had this exact same conversation before? It just seems like you're repeating the old tired non-arguments again.

 

[Armstrong]

The Four(now two or one , depending on the narrative) SAAB-2000's were to be supplemented by 4 Chinese ZDK-03 systems. The Chinese Systems arent all bad(although easily behind their western counterparts). The Systems has a slightly longer range than the SAAB but its coverage ability is similar to the E-3 with the monopulse.. due to the fact that they Chinese haven't figured out how to move the beam in two axis. It is an quasi-ESA array as the beams scan in the vertical.. and rely on the rotating dome to move it around.

Would it be, theoretically, possible to use our existing Chinese Platforms (I think its the Antonov's that are fitted with the ZDK-03) as hosts for possible better versions of the AWACs that the Chinese come up with or would our existing platforms that host the ZDK-03 be obsolete in that context ?

 

[Armstrong]

Not if the fuselage is damaged beyond feasible repair. So that it is essentially cheaper to get a newer airframe.. or declare the aircraft a loss(along with its electronic equipment which may not be a total loss).

Would it be far too improbable to think of the possibility that we choose to declare the aircraft a loss (along with its electronic equipment which wasn't nearly as extensively damaged) so that maybe we can let the Chinese look at it extensively & perhaps incorporate some of what they've learned into a future development of their AWACs !

What do you say @Hyperion ?

 

[Hyperion]

Yara, legally we can't just give "away" things like that. User certification and agreements bar such transfers, there are always pre-agreed decommissioning protocols for such weapon systems. If it were the case, then there would be a whole secondary market for such stuff.

Would it be far too improbable to think of the possibility that we choose to declare the aircraft a loss (along with its electronic equipment which wasn't nearly as extensively damaged) so that maybe we can let the Chinese look at it extensively & perhaps incorporate some of what they've learned into a future development of their AWACs !

What do you say @Hyperion ?

 

[Super Falcon]

i think they should now get in taks for 5 th gen jet than in 2018 we decide what to buy

 

[Super Falcon]

i hope they go for twin engine jet now

 

[dexter]

All future acquisitions strongly depends on strong economy and @Super Falcon we know that whether it is twin engine or single jet engine fighter it always depends on pilot afterall its the man behind the machine and knowing the fact that PAF has no intention for a fighter aircraft only for defensive purpose so there is no chance of it until PAF enter 5th generation

 

[Nishan_101]

Currently they are looking for:
100 JF-17 Block-IIs with its dual seat
J-31 program partner(may be)
Expanding PAC, Kamra facility by buying Land across it and may be upgrading all of the Airbases to optimal standards.

Training:
50 JF-17 Block-IIs dual seats as AJTs
50 K-8s completing the total no. to 50
May be production of more Super Mushak and getting rid of old Mushak.

 

[SQ8]

Currently they are looking for:
100 JF-17 Block-IIs with its dual seat
J-31 program partner(may be)
Expanding PAC, Kamra facility by buying Land across it and may be upgrading all of the Airbases to optimal standards.

Training:
50 JF-17 Block-IIs dual seats as AJTs
50 K-8s completing the total no. to 50
May be production of more Super Mushak and getting rid of old Mushak.

You must be sure what you mean by optimal standards.
And NO to the bold part. Pakistan has not yet decided on getting the dual seater yet for Block-II. If they do that would mean delaying it further to the point where the JF-17 would be as useless as the F-7s.

 

[Dillinger]

You must be sure what you mean by optimal standards.
And NO to the bold part. Pakistan has not yet decided on getting the dual seater yet for Block-II. If they do that would mean delaying it further to the point where the JF-17 would be as useless as the F-7s.

Sir what happened to the J-10 acquisition plans?

 

[SQ8]

Sir what happened to the J-10 acquisition plans?

 

[Dillinger]

It must be on hold then till the economy bounces back? Wasn't Pakistan also looking at the J-31?

 

[SQ8]

It must be on hold then till the economy bounces back? Wasn't Pakistan also looking at the J-31?

Window shopping to use a brief term. Its plain and simple, the image above is possibly the best representation of Pakistan's condition in terms of economics..except we don't even have the toothpick to keep it up. At this point the focus is to keep the 80 F-16's,150 JF-17's, 4 ZDK Awacs, 2 Erieyes and various itsy bitsy upgrades to the Air Defence system on track. That was the PAF's worst case plan in 2005 and now it is the current plan for minimum.. and I mean bare minimum requirement to keep it viable for carrying out its core required tasks. However, the margin for success in those core tasks is very very small.

 

[Dillinger]

Window shopping to use a brief term. Its plain and simple, the image above is possibly the best representation of Pakistan's condition in terms of economics..except we don't even have the toothpick to keep it up. At this point the focus is to keep the 80 F-16's,150 JF-17's, 4 ZDK Awacs, 2 Erieyes and various itsy bitsy upgrades to the Air Defence system on track. That was the PAF's worst case plan in 2005 and now it is the current plan for minimum.. and I mean bare minimum requirement to keep it viable for carrying out its core required tasks. However, the margin for success in those core tasks is very very small.

I was under the impression that the PAF is focused on offensive capabilities and if an offensive force in its outlook and planning? The economy can indeed play havoc with acquisition plans, as even we may find out with the MMRCA plans if the GOI doesn't take immediate actions. But why weren't the acquisition plans expedited during Musharraf's rule, considering that the economy was doing rather well back then?

 

[SQ8]

I was under the impression that the PAF is focused on offensive capabilities and if an offensive force in its outlook and planning? The economy can indeed play havoc with acquisition plans, as even we may find out with the MMRCA plans if the GOI doesn't take immediate actions. But why weren't the acquisition plans expedited during Musharraf's rule, considering that the economy was doing rather well back then?

Someone got too choosy, and acquisitions dont come overnight. It takes time to look at options, negotiate strings etc. At one point it got close to the Rafale and Eurofighter but the strings(or the price in the Rafale's case as reportedly the EF was costing less than the Rafale to the PAF..odd) ruled them out in 2003-4. The J-10 was looked at but then the J-10B was seen and it was decided to wait, and focus on Air Defense upgrades.. after all; if not for Kamra...the PAF would have had 8 AWACS systems of which 4 were really really good pieces of tech. There are also smaller local thingamachiks going on that usually slip under the radar unless you know where to look.

As for the PAF, from what I gathered and without over sentimental or emotive views.. It is still capable of an offensive attack and at this stage it can still deal a blow through capabilities that are still not on papers. A lot of it is paranoia because each force generates intelligence on one another to see what is what and each plays a game of bluff in terms of their cards. That doesn't mean it wont be eventually walked over by its primary threat in the east, but its still capable of dealing enough damage to certain key assets that would have set-backs equivalent of a decade.
That being said, as its primary threat upgrades and the PAF barely keeps up; this set-back giving capability will reduce to 5 to 2 to zero over the next coming years. If you ask a PAF officer today, what is opinion of the IAF is(when they are not in fighter pilot mode or otherwise)..they will(and do) say that "we can take them on and bruise them well.. but there is no longer going to be a war with India..the chances are slim to zero", and that should tell you plainly what the dynamics between the two nations is now.