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Pakistan Air Force Transport

The negatives attached to IL-78 are that they can currently ONLY refuel the Mirage aircraft with A2A capability. Latter on the JF-17s would come under the list too. The biggest disadvantage is that they can not refuel the F-16s or C-130s or any AWACS/AEW&Cs.

Well then the only option left for western aircraft F-16s-swedish AEW&CS are A310 MRTT or KC-130 or F-16s would rely on CFTs. A310 price tag is way to high but since F-16s are to be operated againt mostly likely adversary we know keeping in view the distance across the border I think KC-130 would be the last and best option, acquiring upgrading any civilian airlines airbus Pakistan has in inventory 6 A310s that are grounded or retired due to reasons would also cost atleast $120M minimum in upgrades each for say 2 A310s would PAF be able to pay that much.
 
The negatives attached to IL-78 are that they can currently ONLY refuel the Mirage aircraft with A2A capability. Latter on the JF-17s would come under the list too. The biggest disadvantage is that they can not refuel the F-16s or C-130s or any AWACS/AEW&Cs.

This strick me also. Did the PAF buy the IL-78s purely to refuel vintage and soon to be phased out Mirages? Given that not all pAF Mirages have IFR capability and neither does most of the PAF ie transports,AWACS fighters (excluding those few IFR compatible Mirages) what was the rational behind purchasing the IL-78? So they could use it as a transport mostly?


+ wrt you comments, it seems the IAF has gone completly the other way with almsot all its fleet and addtions to the fleet being IFR capable from Transports to AWACS to fighters
 
Well then the only option left for western aircraft F-16s-swedish AEW&CS are A310 MRTT or KC-130 or F-16s would rely on CFTs. A310 price tag is way to high but since F-16s are to be operated againt mostly likely adversary we know keeping in view the distance across the border I think KC-130 would be the last and best option, acquiring upgrading any civilian airlines airbus Pakistan has in inventory 6 A310s that are grounded or retired due to reasons would also cost atleast $120M minimum in upgrades each for say 2 A310s would PAF be able to pay that much.
We could talk about aerial refuelling on a separate thread where I have raised this issue some time ago with all possible deals PAF could get from Lockheed Martin and other options.
This strick me also. Did the PAF buy the IL-78s purely to refuel vintage and soon to be phased out Mirages? Given that not all pAF Mirages have IFR capability and neither does most of the PAF ie transports,AWACS fighters (excluding those few IFR compatible Mirages) what was the rational behind purchasing the IL-78? So they could use it as a transport mostly?


+ wrt you comments, it seems the IAF has gone completly the other way with almsot all its fleet and addtions to the fleet being IFR capable from Transports to AWACS to fighters
The IL-78 is used as MRTT, Multi-Role-Transport-Tanker. One unit is specially reserved for transportation, and others occasionally do serve the transport missions. PAF's fleet of about 250 JF-17s with aerial-refuelling probes would require an IL-78 type tanker too. Not bad choice.
 
This strick me also. Did the PAF buy the IL-78s purely to refuel vintage and soon to be phased out Mirages? Given that not all pAF Mirages have IFR capability and neither does most of the PAF ie transports,AWACS fighters (excluding those few IFR compatible Mirages) what was the rational behind purchasing the IL-78? So they could use it as a transport mostly?

IFR capabilities can be added to PAF AEW&Cs and would not cost much. Incase you did not read JF-17s would be bound for IFR with IL-78 150 of them.

Even with the rational to use them as Transport is a great boost to PAF in terms of carrying much heavier load then C-130s. remember you'll need 2-3 C-130s to carry as much weight as 1 single IL-78 effectively efficiently.
 
Almost all landing surfaces are Standard around those are not build in a way that pose danger to airplanes so the problem is solved you should be familiar with Airport Runway building standards all runways are built on international standards.

Firstly, can you break your sentences up? They're not very clear.

Also, you don't seem to have understood the jist of my post. You're right, the IL-78 can probably land on all of Pakistan's runways. What it can not do is operate off a beach strip in the Ran of Kutch, or off an unprepared desert strip in Baluchistan or a mountainous plateau in the Karakorum like the C-130 can. The PCN refers to the strength of the pavement/runway surface.

C-130 costs more then IL-76/IL-78 having said that IL-78 for its size is great when it comes to price tag. An extra 3 IL-76/78 are not cost over burdens otherwise you'll need to procure 3 C-130s for every 1 IL-76/78 the cost of maintenance is nullified you'll spend close to that on IL-76/78 as much as on 3 C-130s. IL-76/78 are reliable Transport with its flight history dating back to early 1971-82 till date.

Read my post again. I wasn't referring to new off-the-line C-130Js. If Pakistan was to purchase new, they would cost in excess of $60 million a piece. C-130H models manufactured in the 70-80s would be much cheaper, vastly more capable than the -E models that PAF mainly have, and would still have a lot of life left.

For our overall Transport activities-purposes IL-78 fullfills that role greatly efficiently.

Not true. I thought I would pull up some fuel burn numbers to further my points:

IL-76/-78 equipped with PS-90 engines (PAF are equipped with PS-90) and operating at MSP will burn 8-9000 kg/hr. That's more than a 380t Airbus A340-600 :eek:

http://www.skylineaviation.co.uk/downloads/IlyushinIL-76.pdf

A C-130H operating at MSP will burn around 2-2500 kg/hr (about the same as an F-16!)

fuelc.jpg


In airlines, fuel costs make up around 40% of running costs. Given the fact that most airforces own their aircraft, that would push fuel to over 50% of operating costs.

Furthermore, you imply that due to the maturity of the IL-76 being around since the 70s that it is a very reliable airframe. By that logic, surely this means that the C-130 which has been around 20 years longer is even more reliable?

Also, even the most reliable machines need maintenance. The T-56 and PS-90 both have very similar TBO for the engines:

Metallurgy and other upgrades since the 1970s have made the T56 a more reliable engine. The Coast Guard will let the Air Force go first on the next upgrade, hoping to learn from the larger service’s experience.

“We expect the T56 to stay on for 20 more years, as long as the C-130Hs,” Miller said. “Our turbines are getting close to 6,000 hours and compressors are pushing toward 9,000 hours. They are getting more reliable, or at least we are not seeing any decline in reliability.” ♦


Engine Maintenance

Also, perhaps you would care to look into the cost of the recent overhaul of the Mil-17 operated by the Punjab Govt and the difficulties and costs they faced in acquiring spare parts (An overhauled TV3 engine will set you back over $500 000).

The extremely poor supply chain logistics offered by Russian/ ex-CIS states is a huge issue and is one of the reasons why few to none Western airlines operate such aircraft types (I seem to recall a very long red flag thread regarding the Indian Air Force in the US and the difficulties they had in obtaining spare parts for their Sukhois).

I think there are no Negatives attached with IL-78 specially when the number is 4 and might increase to 4 more in future or should.

Take off the rose tinted glasses.
 
What it can not do is operate off a beach strip in the Ran of Kutch, or off an unprepared desert strip in Baluchistan or a mountainous plateau in the Karakorum like the C-130 can. The PCN refers to the strength of the pavement/runway surface.

Read my post again. I wasn't referring to new off-the-line C-130Js. If Pakistan was to purchase new, they would cost in excess of $60 million a piece. C-130H models manufactured in the 70-80s would be much cheaper, vastly more capable than the -E models that PAF mainly have, and would still have a lot of life left.

Not true. I thought I would pull up some fuel burn numbers to further my points:

Furthermore, you imply that due to the maturity of the IL-76 being around since the 70s that it is a very reliable airframe. By that logic, surely this means that the C-130 which has been around 20 years longer is even more reliable?

Also, even the most reliable machines need maintenance. The T-56 and PS-90 both have very similar TBO for the engines:

Metallurgy and other upgrades since the 1970s have made the T56 a more reliable engine. The Coast Guard will let the Air Force go first on the next upgrade, hoping to learn from the larger service’s experience.

“We expect the T56 to stay on for 20 more years, as long as the C-130Hs,” Miller said. “Our turbines are getting close to 6,000 hours and compressors are pushing toward 9,000 hours. They are getting more reliable, or at least we are not seeing any decline in reliability.” ♦



Also, perhaps you would care to look into the cost of the recent overhaul of the Mil-17 operated by the Punjab Govt and the difficulties and costs they faced in acquiring spare parts (An overhauled TV3 engine will set you back over $500 000).

The extremely poor supply chain logistics offered by Russian/ ex-CIS states is a huge issue and is one of the reasons why few to none Western airlines operate such aircraft types (I seem to recall a very long red flag thread regarding the Indian Air Force in the US and the difficulties they had in obtaining spare parts for their Sukhois).

Advise take you anger outside this Forum, be calm.

PAF has not reached that desperate point to use assets off the beach and desert strips. We are not USAF try to understand. Perhaps if you can increase budget of Armed Forces then we can talk on that aspect and invite you to PAF headquarters.

Suggest from whom will you buy used C-130H, Aussies they are over used, USAF excess ones are also stressed out all will be replaced in time by C-130J variants.

Comparing C-130E/H/J to IL-76/78 you got to be kidding us.

You brought in the reliability subject if you check you post to that i referred the history of il-76/78. I think 41 Year is enough to prove reliability.

Perhaps in the End PAF wants to spend funds on keeping 4 IL-78s due to certain factors explained previously. Still cost effective then C141/C-17/B52s fuel burn. By the way Range / Time / Fuel Burn / Payload matters...Have you check what is written under the Table you posted.

MIL-17 is not relevant to this Thread.
 
Advise take you anger outside this Forum, be calm.

I do not suffer fools lightly.

PAF has not reached that desperate point to use assets off the beach and desert strips.

And yet the military used the C-130 to get assets into the Kutch area after the Breguet was shot down by the IAF. The C-130 was also used on dirt strips in the Northern Areas following the 05 earthquake and the recent floods. The PAF and PA aerial assets have found just as much use in a civilian role as they have a tactical. It would be foolish to not take stock of any potential dual-role aircraft may have to play. In that context, the C-130 (or even the cn-235) would be better suited to Pakistan's needs.

Suggest from whom will you buy used C-130H, Aussies they are over used, USAF excess ones are also stressed out all will be replaced in time by C-130J variants.

From the US via the EDA program. There are many C-130s stored at the AMARG. Also, the C-130 has a flight life of 60 000 hours. The USAF and USCG have utilisation rates of around 4-500 hrs/year. Many aircraft that are stored still have 30 years of life left in them. Why do you think Australia is selling it's C-130s for $15 million a piece?

Indonesia could take additional RAAF C-130Hs

Comparing C-130E/H/J to IL-76/78 you got to be kidding us.

All I've done is point out the flipsides of jets vs props. I did say that the IL-78 acquisition made sense given the requirements to transport the spada and jf-17 fuselages, and ultimately the refueling role they will fill.
 
C-130E Serial# 3536 and 3702 are believed to have Star Fire EO/IR turrets. C-130E Serial#4282 (I think with old number 4727, as said by you) with lots of antennas underneath lower fuselage is used for COMINT (Communications Intelligence). Most of these aircraft are assigned to No.21 Sqn..which is not a transport squadron:D

Photo below. USAF C-130 with EO/IR Turret and related senors.

0loEC.jpg

uRogt.jpg

It might be possible that PAF had upgraded all the C-130s with IRST pod and displayed only few ones. By the way nice pictures. Can you show more of these please.
 
Bottom line guys, both aircrafts have a different role to play in PAF. And talking from PAF's perspective alone, the IL76/78 is a heavy lift a/c plus a much needed tanker platform forsome of the current strike aircraft and the future workhorse of PAF, JF 17. The C130 will continue to play it role in stocking sattellite stations and primary supply vehicle for northern areas where longer airstrips are an issue.

Basically, both a/c have a different role to play in PAF, they are not vaying for the same spot!
 
Yup, If you look closely at the tail, 3702 is visible.

Same aircraft in 2011. Both camos look alike. So, no new paint scheme? Seems like a year old paint scheme.

3702_jan20a.jpg


FLIR is also visible.
Due to the nature of the role assigned to these C-130s with FLIR, i won't be surprised to if one of them serves in jungle camou scheme.

What is the difference between the EW C-130 that PAF has, and the EC-130 of USAF?

Tail fin for one, but what is the difference in the operational area of both?

Is PAF C-130 only for Intel or for aggressive EW?
Both Air Forces have different systems installed in their C-130. USAF EC-130s are truly for electronic role, they have various type of sensors and antennas to gather perform in various EW roles (SIGINT,COMINT, ES etc.). PAF's C-130s on the other hand are intermediate between a true EW C-130 and a transport C-130. Budget and funds are the main reason why we can't afford such exclusive C-130s for EW role.
 
Read my post again. I wasn't referring to new off-the-line C-130Js. If Pakistan was to purchase new, they would cost in excess of $60 million a piece. C-130H models manufactured in the 70-80s would be much cheaper, vastly more capable than the -E models that PAF mainly have, and would still have a lot of life left

for the price of 1-C130J, PAF can buy 5 C-130E's and upgrade them to H-standards. this is most cost-effective.
 
Following photo was taken in July 2009. Interestingly it shows transition from old to new serials on C-130s. Two nearest C-130s 3668(or 3660?) and 4282 are carrying COMINT antennas.

Now since its a Hi-resolution photo, I am expecting you guys to give me a count of C-130s visible...Spare some time, zoom in and play with brightness levels:D
w0RFP.jpg
 
It must cost PAF quite lot of money to stock different types of paints. They are specialised paints and very, very expensive. I think PAF uses Sikkens out of Holland Denmark.

Since Talibs do not have Surface to Air weapons or an Airforce for that matter, intensive camo on the a/c are not needed. The typical grey should be standardised as most of these aircrafts are housed at major airbases.

My 2c's worth;-)
 
Sixis the count. IF we count the one in the hanger, then the count goes upby one!!!
 
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