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Green big one probable is Mk 20 Rockeye CBU

Which one? Is it comparable to CBU 105?

CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon is a United States Air Force 1,000-pound (450 kg)-class freefall Cluster Bomb Unit.

The CBU-97 used in conjunction with the Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser guidance tail kit, is converted to a precision-guided weapon and designated CBU-105.

CBU 105 is of course much better, rather a smart munition, when compared to Mk 20.
 
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You have started revolving around JF-17, its cost and fighter acquisition. I asked specific Q's to clear an over all picture with few basic points:
1. Army has raised new formations, upgraded older formations (Mech inf and Sp Arty Regts), PAF has also raised couple of Squadrons and PN has inducted new ships. So an overall expansion has taken in all three forces. In the past, Army was expanded the most which has changed now. However, all this expansion in three forces is excellent, but how does one get an edge over the enemy in conventional warfare?

2. Army cannot match its brigades and divisions with indian Army and Navy cannot also match ship to ship. However, if PAF starts to match its number of squadrons to IAF squadrons, would that raise alarms in IAF ? would that give an edge to PA and PN in conducting their Ops also since both are dependent on air cover ?

3. India has always started a weapons race and knows that it can win that weapon race, in numbers especially. Pakistan can match in quality though and it has most of the times. Its the numbers where Pakistan lacks and will continue to do so.

I think the force needed to defend Pakistan is enough. There is both a strategic and conventional balance as is. However, if the objective is different - to liberate Kashmir or to fight an enemy that is bound to start a war - and win that war - then the equations change.

Stalin is famous for saying - quantity has a quality all it's own. Is Pakistan's qualitative edge and small size good enough to win a war to liberate Kashmir? That is the pertinent question for me. Is it possible for Pakistan to win bag Kashmir? Again another axiomatic question.

Pakistan has gone beyond the point where it can be militarily defeated in a short conventional war. Or even in a long unconventional one. For me, the objective now should be to liberate Kashmir and to prepare for a Hindutva war where they attempt to occupy GB and Azad Kashmir.

This means that from my POV, the objective isn't conventional balance but conventional imbalance in favour of Pakistan. Thus, the fundamental premise is why we aren't on the same page. To buttress my point, I can bring up that PM IK thinks (as according to his many speeches), that India has adopted a Nazi-like ideology whose logical conclusion is going to lead them to attack Pakistani Kashmir.

From the other side, Kashmir is critical to Pakistan's ideological existence, and to liberate Kashmir is a fundamental order of Jinnah. So, to fulfill the political requirement, Pak Armed Forces job is to search for and implement strategies and plans that will help them achieve a victory in Kashmir. By ignoring this and holding on to minimal balance of forces vis-a-vis India, Pakistan Armed Forces is not truly serving the objectives set.

To fulfill such a purpose, the armed forces has to realize that it has to up the game - and a part of upping that game is to see how the quantity variable can be changed. Pakistan isn't as rich as India that it can match them professional soldier to professional soldier. But can it close the gap in a cost-efficient manner?

Now, it is on the onus of the armed forces to figure out what plan they have. That plan has to have the objective of having the possibility of retaking Kashmir. Not the objective of the past. Whether that includes conscription or not, whether that includes more combat aircraft or not, or what balance of quality and quantity that will require, or whatever. First and foremost those proposals have to come from the armed forces.

The post you quoted is from a thread I started giving my amateur views on how this later objective of a coming showdown and an attempt can be made to retake Kashmir using a different kind of quantity, and a different combination of variables. It outlined my amateur attempt to show what kind of operational plans would need to be laid out - like the Bhuj salient or the flanking maneuver in Rajistan. Within my narrative, none of that is possible without a significantly larger military, and I simply used the point of least resistance to overcome that fundamental problem.

Likewise, in this thread I've simply highlighted a similar idea for increasing the combat efficiency and effectiveness of the air force, in line with the objectives I had outlined. The loss in translation is because our fundamental premise of the ultimate objectives differ.
 
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You have started revolving around JF-17, its cost and fighter acquisition. I asked specific Q's to clear an over all picture with few basic points:
1. Army has raised new formations, upgraded older formations (Mech inf and Sp Arty Regts), PAF has also raised couple of Squadrons and PN has inducted new ships. So an overall expansion has taken in all three forces. In the past, Army was expanded the most which has changed now. However, all this expansion in three forces is excellent, but how does one get an edge over the enemy in conventional warfare?

2. Army cannot match its brigades and divisions with indian Army and Navy cannot also match ship to ship. However, if PAF starts to match its number of squadrons to IAF squadrons, would that raise alarms in IAF ? would that give an edge to PA and PN in conducting their Ops also since both are dependent on air cover ?

3. India has always started a weapons race and knows that it can win that weapon race, in numbers especially. Pakistan can match in quality though and it has most of the times. Its the numbers where Pakistan lacks and will continue to do so.
I think you have raised an excellent point. In the current scenario, it is easiest to close the squadron numbers gap with that of IAF considering we are producing JF-17s inhouse. Matching the quantity of assets of PN and PA with the adversary is much more difficult if not impossible.

Additionally, the only service which can simultaneously support the other two services is PAF. Matching PA and PN numbers would only strengthen those particular services whereas strengthening the PAF would not only strengthen it alone but would also strengthen the PA and PN as a side-prdouct automatically.

Considering that the IAF is currently at its historically low numbers and considering all the vintage jets it has to replace, its squadron numbers are not going to go upwards any time soon. It is our wonderful chance to keep diminishing the quantity advantage they have enjoyed for years and slowly try to match it while retaining the quality edge at the same time.

JF-17 provides us a potent tool to realize this very opportunity. Thus, the initial idea of JF-17 as just a replacement for older jets needs to be bunked for good and its numbers must be increased beyond the intitally laid out figures. That would, thus, not only directly be a huge psychological setback for the IAF but would also indirectly be denying the size advantage the IN and IA enjoy in their respective categories.
 
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I think you have raised an excellent point. In the current scenario, it is easiest to close the squadron numbers gap with that of IAF considering we are producing JF-17s inhouse. Matching the quantity of assets of PN and PA with the adversary is much more difficult if not impossible.

Additionally, the only service which can simultaneously support the other two services is PAF. Matching PA and PN numbers would only strengthen those particular services however strengthening the PAF would not only strengthen it alone but would also strengthen the PA and PN as a side-prdouct automatically.

Considering that the IAF is currently at its historically low numbers and considering all the vintage jets it has to replace, its squadron numbers are not going to go upwards any time soon. It is our wonderful chance to keep diminishing the quantity advantage they have enjoyed for years and slowly try to match it while retaining the quality edge at the same time.

JF-17 provides us a potent tool to realize this very opportunity. Thus, the initial idea of JF-17 as just a replacement needs to be bunked for good and its numbers must be increased beyond the intitally laid out figures. That would, thus, not only directly be a huge psychological setback for the IAF but would also indirectly be denying the size advantage the IN and IA enjoy in their respective categories.

IAF combat squadrons are around 28 with 3 more to be inducted this year and the authorised number is 42. If PAF also starts inducting squadrons at same speed, IAF will not feel any psychological edge by boosting numbers. Even if PAF keeps 12 aircrafts per squadron for new ones instead of usual 18, the squadron will still be operational.

Stalin is famous for saying - quantity has a quality all it's own. Is Pakistan's qualitative edge and small size good enough to win a war to liberate Kashmir? That is the pertinent question for me. Is it possible for Pakistan to win bag Kashmir? Again another axiomatic question.
Ok, just to make u think a bit more on the Ops side.

Have u researched history of Air war over Kashmir from 1947 till 2020?
What about the air warfare in mountains ?
Which jets are suited for high altitudes and in snow ?
Which air bases can sustain a constant sortie rate from Pakistan and Indian side?


Why is strength of infantry formations lesser in number in mountains than regular battalions ?
How does mobility come into play for advancing army in mountains ?
Where does Army aviation come in ? and who will give cover to PAA ?

What role does snow play during combat in mountains ? Is choosing the right season necessary but it wont last forever, just a few months, so how to being victory in those few months ? Remember Barbarossa, but it wasnt mountains even.
 
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IAF combat squadrons are around 28 with 3 more to be inducted this year and the authorised number is 42. If PAF also starts inducting squadrons at same speed, IAF will not feel any psychological edge by boosting numbers. Even if PAF keeps 12 aircrafts per squadron for new ones instead of usual 18, the squadron will still be operational.


Ok, just to make u think a bit more on the Ops side.

Have u researched history of Air war over Kashmir from 1947 till 2020?
What about the air warfare in mountains ?
Which jets are suited for high altitudes and in snow ?
Which air bases can sustain a constant sortie rate from Pakistan and Indian side?


Why is strength of infantry formations lesser in number in mountains than regular battalions ?
How does mobility come into play for advancing army in mountains ?
Where does Army aviation come in ? and who will give cover to PAA ?

What role does snow play during combat in mountains ? Is choosing the right season necessary but it wont last forever, just a few months, so how to being victory in those few months ? Remember Barbarossa, but it wasnt mountains even.

Thought provoking questions. I surely don't have air tight answers to quite a few of them. Even if I attempt amateur answers to some of them, I think these operational questions are left to a professional to answer. I do know quite intimately how a handful of soldiers in the mountains can bring a much larger force to a standstill - Indians were using 16:1 with heavy artillery - thousands of rounds per minute. If you look at the other thread, I've therefore shown how attacking from another sector by surprise could be used to get the results.

Obviously the Indians expect Pak to attack in Kashmir or between Sialkot to just South of Multan. Why not surprise them with something they don't expect? But don't want to drag this away from the interesting discussion you're looking for... just to note that the big picture requires greater flexibility of thinking.

F-16s are the best aircraft Pakistan has for high altitude mountain warfare. From the Indian side its the M-2K and MiG-29. Mountains allow aerial ambush opportunities at every contour. Rafale would be the deadliest aircraft of them all for this kind of high altitude turning ambushes.

Even a single one of your questions would be an interesting and long discussion and I don't want to disconnect but delay here because I was thinking about something else just now - the big picture. Perhaps if we start from there we can then start to drill down to the details.

Let's imagine a scenario of 2028 and what PAF could do to reach the 32 squadrons you've outlined.

What does it have from the old stock of 2019 at that point?
Perhaps:
F-16s - 75
JF-17s - 118
Mirage - 150
F-7PG - 50
Total: 393

To reach 32 squadrons, Pakistan needs: 576 combat aircraft.

This means there is a need for 183 aircraft more between 2020-2028. That is, about 20 aircraft inducted per year. Pakistan has right now a capacity of 25 aircraft per year (minus exports). Thus, what you are suggesting is a reasonably achievable goal.
 
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Also, if we say only a very small number and PAF can keep them secret like other Air Forces have aircraft that they keep secret from the world.
I dont think in current world inductions of fighter aircraft can remain secret long

That is a good idea. However, I see a few points:

1. To develop a true LIFT is about 70% the effort of a fighter program. If its subsonic, about 50% the effort.

2. The engines have to be truly low maintenance and sip fuel. Otherwise there is no real purpose.

3. Modern AESA radars have very high definition - meaning they can recognize and differentiate aircraft a lot better than in the past. This means that this LIFT would just be a lift and at best a light attack aircraft.

4. There is very limited combat utility of a LIFT in an air defence role. Specially in a high stakes India-Pakistan face-off.

In comparison, the JF-17 Lite would:

1. Be nearly indistinguishable from JF-17s, meaning India would not know exactly how many "real JF-17s" they are facing in combat.

2. Over time, can be upgraded to even better combat capability (as funds become available): upgrade to some composite engine parts - get more combat capable engine. Add a radar / add a better radar. Add EW. Take out some of the lower quality airframe parts and improve G rating. There is a certain in-built upgradability here. Eventually, the margin of difference between the Lite and the real thing will be smaller.

3. You have a product indigenously developed that can be exported to Africa / South America as your export. Which can earn money. Buying a LIFT - most likely a Chinese one will never allow you to do that. And if you can sell the JF-17 Lite as a LIFT, you get a foot in the door and develop relationships as a manufacturer. Which makes the real JF-17 an even more attractive proposition as a package.
The idea of thander lite seems good, it will give you cheap option to increase very lightweight Fighters and LIFT option too.
Ofcourse good export option if price can be controlled between 10 to 15 million

But question is how to reduce price , is there any cheap cost or low maintenance engine available from russia or china that can take weight of thandar airframe.
What other changes can reduce cost as we already know the basics verion block 1 used to cost 25 million so what other things can be removed from block one , that will not easy thing for PAC at all
 
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Thought provoking questions. I surely don't have air tight answers to quite a few of them. Even if I attempt amateur answers to some of them, I think these operational questions are left to a professional to answer. I do know quite intimately how a handful of soldiers in the mountains can bring a much larger force to a standstill - Indians were using 16:1 with heavy artillery - thousands of rounds per minute. If you look at the other thread, I've therefore shown how attacking from another sector by surprise could be used to get the results.

Obviously the Indians expect Pak to attack in Kashmir or between Sialkot to just South of Multan. Why not surprise them with something they don't expect? But don't want to drag this away from the interesting discussion you're looking for... just to note that the big picture requires greater flexibility of thinking.

F-16s are the best aircraft Pakistan has for high altitude mountain warfare. From the Indian side its the M-2K and MiG-29. Mountains allow aerial ambush opportunities at every contour. Rafale would be the deadliest aircraft of them all for this kind of high altitude turning ambushes.

Even a single one of your questions would be an interesting and long discussion and I don't want to disconnect but delay here because I was thinking about something else just now - the big picture. Perhaps if we start from there we can then start to drill down to the details.

Let's imagine a scenario of 2028 and what PAF could do to reach the 32 squadrons you've outlined.

What does it have from the old stock of 2019 at that point?
Perhaps:
F-16s - 75
JF-17s - 118
Mirage - 150
F-7PG - 50
Total: 393

To reach 32 squadrons, Pakistan needs: 576 combat aircraft.

This means there is a need for 183 aircraft more between 2020-2028. That is, about 20 aircraft inducted per year. Pakistan has right now a capacity of 25 aircraft per year (minus exports). Thus, what you are suggesting is a reasonably achievable goal.
F7 PGs will retire soon
 
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F7 PGs will retire soon

I hope not. They are pretty cheap and the maintenance is easy for PAF. Spare parts are cheap and plentiful. Good jet to keep around in small quantity for niche role as

1. first aircraft for newly minted pilots
2. Giving flight hours to JF-17 / F-16 pilots so those platforms can be preserved
3. LIFT
4. Ground attack
5. WVR ambush around Lahore / Kashmir
6. Low cost policing duties like intercepting airliners that err.

In any case, I was trying to make the best possible case for reaching @Signalian 's numbers.
 
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