Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Trailer23]

Was it saved or crashed?

Nahe yaar. Right before ejecting, just switch on the ILS Approch. The jet took over from there .

I'm not sure. I think only one is left on F-7s. There is none on F-16s, JF-17s and Mirages.

Once the B-Variant becomes fully Operational (assigned to Squadrons) - and if an EW role is on the books, they could be great Rios.

 

[airomerix]

Couldn't say better.If you want to excel in the Air Force just do Jee Sir and dont bring up creative ideas unless you are very senior.

Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*

Was it saved or crashed?

BTW Why do PAF have qouta for females? Why don't they compete in similar tests to males?
@Adam_Khan

Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.

I got a scenario from 1993. 2 v 4 CCS. 2 Vipers, 4 Mirages. One of the Vipers developed engine problems and egressed. The sole Viper (lead) shot all 4 Mirages. Imagine how the debriefing was, I'll leave that up to you to think as it was a Sqn Ldr against the judgment of senior staff pilots (by rank, not flying hours).

I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy.

Shameful to read the stories here. This is why PAF should not be allowed to keep things in the dark. Pakistan deserves better. PAF is not a fiefdom for anyone, if competence is not honoured, no amount of feel good stories will help PAF win the next air war.

thats shame ful why dnt they change their culture

These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.

So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.

Bull Shit.

 

[Maxpane]

Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*



Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.



I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy.





These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.

So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.

sir my concern is not about other organizations. when juniors officers gets higher positions thrn why not they try to change the culture which they have faced in the past. Though they were victims but after getting higher positions why they not try to change it instead of becoming the part of system

 

[CriticalThought]

Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*



Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.



I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy.





These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.

So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.

Just my two cents. They could create an environment where juniors engage with each other in coming up with creative ideas. These could be reviewed and selected by top leadership, thus avoiding any embarrassing situations.

 

[Armchair]

Organizations hire fresh talent for ideas and its the other way round here *facepalm*



Fatima's aircraft went into a flat spin and she ejected at 6000 AGL after being unable to recover. Jahaz kahan bachna tha.



I can only imagine. There is another culture if the OC flying likes a young jock and takes him out for flying, the OC Sqn and other senior sqn officers develop insecurity. Seen it a number of times. It's pure out of jealousy.





These humane imperfections are everywhere in the world. Do you know what happens in IAF? The pilots are usually from upper casts while the maintainers are from lower. In an event of a spat, it turns into a inter-cast issue and these maintainers sabotage the aircraft which leads to its crash.

So every organization has its flaws and ours being 'power distance' in the name of discipline. This power distance between senior and junior confers complete dominance to the senior in the light of his experience and record. Leaving little or no space for junior officers to shine.

Maybe true in India and Pakistan but in top tier Western organizations, this is far from the truth. I've spent years studying this phenomenon and have a PhD in a related subject, and unless we can move towards a meritocratic organization culture, we aren't going to be winning any wars or being able to compete internationally. Thanks for your candid insights.

 

[Scorpiooo]

True.

However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.

I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.

CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.

Common pakistani phenomena, ego and fear that junior can take lead, this is all field of life for pakistanis

I've personally seen guys who are more keen on going to transport/ AWACS just because it improves their chance of getting into airline flying later on and these days quite a few of them think along these lines.

You're right that they can't change the OCU curriculum but my point is that if not a single female pilot has gone beyond that stage then shouldn't sending them to OCU's for fighter aircraft be stopped.

Ps,from what I've heard the induction rate of women in GDP branch is already falling.

Thay are trying, lets see one day , one of these actually qualifies than

 

[Tps43]

Seriously bro....!

Yes ISI brought it not too long ago it’s for vip transportation

 

[Ark_Angel]

True.

However, i've heard quite alot of stories of these 'skirmishes' between good pilots and their instructors over petty issues. I know a pilot who was sidelined because he took a shot of the sqn flt cmdr during a 2v2. He was roasted because he took a shot of a senior sqn ldr as a flg officer.

I know another one who used to bring in ideas of air combat off the internet from the literature available from ex USAF pilots and other sources, he was roasted too because the instructor's ego was hurt.

CCS is known for the clash of ego's. I met someone who is in Qatar Airways right now. He gave CCS instructors a run for their money during engagements. Top notch material! Was a Sher Afghan had he completed the last two missions. But in the process, developed hostility with OC CCS. He was chewed out and sent to AHQ. Never wanted to fly again despite Sohail Aman's repeated requests. Left the Air force for Airblue and now he's in Qatar.

Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good.
My view from all this and others:
If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to:

1) Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or requires you don’t be a smart ***
2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game
3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand
4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly

 

[loanranger]

Couldn't say better.If you want to excel in the Air Force just do Jee Sir and dont bring up creative ideas unless you are very senior.

Absolutely agreed. Butter yourself to the top. But never let the inovative mind for the benefit of PAF die while climbing the ladder.

 

[airomerix]

Absolutely agreed. Butter yourself to the top. But never let the inovative mind for the benefit of PAF die while climbing the ladder.

It's easier said than done. Innovation requires a 'cultivatable' environment and supportive leadership to thrive. Without it, it is killed with age or at best, loses sharpness.

Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good.
My view from all this and others:
If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to:

1) Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or requires you don’t be a smart ***

This is the name of the game.

2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game
3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand
4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly

Not surprised. It sounds like a real loss.

 

[Raider 21]

Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good.
My view from all this and others:
If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to:

1) Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or requires you don’t be a smart ***
2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game
3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand
4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly

That is there, but with organizations like USAF there is a high chance of getting appreciation for the effort the younger pilots put in. They normally and I repeat normally they don't let experience to waste. Same goes for the Navy and the Marine Corps. Some of the sharpest pilots I met are from the Marine Corps. Sharp, focused, fit and very motivated despite the scarcity of jets these days in their inventory.

 

[araz]

Happens world over. Not restricted to PAF. Met multiple USAF Pilots who resigned or Left Fighter flying to pursue career in the private domain because they couldn’t get along with their Seniors. In IAF it’s the same case rather even worse. Met an Ex SU-30 Pilot he’s currently in the states flying Private for some Big Wig. The Guy had more than 800 Hours on him. And last he was Instructor at Gwalior. Said he had an argument with his OC in the air over their tactics when Singaporeans were around. The next thing he knew he’s off for good.
My view from all this and others:
If you really believe that you know more than your Senior, or that your more competent in whatever Air,Land or Surface Platform that you serve on to:

1) Learn to Digest what your senior asks you or requires you don’t be a smart ***
2) Understand his nature is he an SPG type or likes what new you bring to the game
3) If he doesn’t then keep your Ideas with you, Look down walk along, Rise to the top and Allow your juniors to bring innovation and changes, Give them a free hand
4) If you can’t do that, Leave as early as possible and try something else, The world is infinite and use your talents accordingly

Having said all of this, there needs to be a system for marking progress which is objective and relatively devoid of personal likes and dislikes. It generally tends to be a tick box exercise but that plus the flight recording data can be a good judge of individual performance. There also needs to be a STRONG element of self discipline amongst trainees. A lot of careers have been destroyed by people being cocky and not listening to advice.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Having said all of this, there needs to be a system for marking progress which is objective and relatively devoid of personal likes and dislikes. It generally tends to be a tick box exercise but that plus the flight recording data can be a good judge of individual performance. There also needs to be a STRONG element of self discipline amongst trainees. A lot of careers have been destroyed by people being cocky and not listening to advice.
A

You have to find a way to reward those who take feedback from juniors positively.

If it's pride that's stopping seniors, then you have to train them to show pride in having subordinates with leadership caliber.

We use the term "rockstar team" in the corporate world as an example of this type of leadership. It's the idea that your subordinates are all leaders in their own right, and while they follow you, they're ahead of their peers in other businesses (or teams).

That said, the thing runs both ways. Juniors should also learn to explain issues about their seniors' work in a respectful way. I'm not saying this happens, but I've seen it happen the wrong way too, and that doesn't help anyone.

 

[redgriffin]

It is not to say it this is normal.But highlighting that it is not uncommon. And it has a lot do with the cultural aspect, which won't change overnight,

This culture permeates across all aspects of professional Pakistan. See it everyday in the corporate sector as well & it makes my blood boil. A lot of us can't stomach the fact that someone may be better than us at the thing we chose to do or may know more than us.