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@MastanKhan im not entirely sure to what you are referring. I certainly didnt take your material, but i think you and I are usually on the same page. That being said, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) if the point is that they can keep the airframe airworthy, why then would you not chamge the sensors when you have to the means. You are talking about $10M dollars difference to replace 1 airframe vs refurbish and upgrade. It. Now multiply that by 112 airframes. To me, if you can MLU the block 1 and 2s you save $1.12Bln, but my suspicion is the difference will be more than that. But again that may not necessarily be worth it to PAF vs new builds.
 
Any Details? Could you provide the link. Has the PAf implemented actual sensor fusion?; where only one track appears on the screen, but an integrator module or piece of software blends the tracks from the radar, IFF, MAWS, etc.

Hi,

The posts are here on the forum---over 5 years old---discussing all aspects of data link etc etc etc---making a functional unit like the Grippen NG---.

Now you bring up info of one function at a time this this and that---acting in this this & that manner---.

Now if the Grippen NG had all those functions---then please consider them covered---because the JF17 is based on the Grippen NG design function & utility---.
 
All credit to you Khan Sahib.
Hi,

Jul 3, 2019#32

This cost of new vs re-furbishing---I brought out a couple of three weeks ago---where @messiach asked me how I got to the $30 mil or $35 mil for a BLK3 JF17---.

I had suggested that it might be feasible to upgrade the aircraft because the newer one would be pretty cheap---.

So---please---guys---if your guys are using my posts---please give me credit for that---if it is your original idea and you claim that you have not read my 3 weeks old post---I won't argue---.

But it is happening more often than not---.

Posters are becoming Defense Analysts Defense writers on stealing my material---and material from this website---.

Please confront and stop these guys---if they take it from the forum---they need to give credit to it.
 
So the Mirages of the 1960s vintage can fly with the PAF for 50+ years of frontline service, yet a plane designed in the 90s and produced in the 2000s is only good for 20? If that were the case, why even bother with creating a facility to fully overhaul the jet? JF-17's existing airframes will be in service for a long time to come, and easily double the service life then the 15-20 year estimates. The first jets that were manufactured are just starting to go through overhaul now after about 10 years of service. If the 15-20 years contention is correct, its implying that they will be only overhauled once in their life. We all know how many times F-6, F-7s and Mirages have gone through major overhauls to know PAF will not be throwing away its newest jets.
 
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So the Mirages of the 1960s vintage can fly with the PAF for 50+ years of frontline service, yet a plane designed in the 90s and produced in the 2000s is only good for 20? If that were the case, why even bother with creating a facility to fully overhaul the jet? JF-17's existing airframes will be in service for a long time to come, and easily double the service life then the 15-20 year estimates. The first jets that were manufactured are just starting to go through overhaul now after about 10 years of service. If the 15-20 years contention is correct, its implying that they will be only overhauled once in their life. We all know how many times F-6, F-7s and Mirages have gone through major overhauls to know PAF will not be throwing away its newest jets.

Not really,
Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
due to technological advancements and survival requirements.

How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
producing more thrust than weight ?
 
So the Mirages of the 1960s vintage can fly with the PAF for 50+ years of frontline service, yet a plane designed in the 90s and produced in the 2000s is only good for 20? If that were the case, why even bother with creating a facility to fully overhaul the jet? JF-17's existing airframes will be in service for a long time to come, and easily double the service life then the 15-20 year estimates. The first jets that were manufactured are just starting to go through overhaul now after about 10 years of service. If the 15-20 years contention is correct, its implying that they will be only overhauled once in their life. We all know how many times F-6, F-7s and Mirages have gone through major overhauls to know PAF will not be throwing away its newest jets.

Hi,

The 60's mirages fly for 50 years is because of the refurbishment of whole of the aircraft frame upwards---.

We are operating them because they still are an excellent platform for the job that they can do and the duties that they can perform---.

They still are an excellent strike platform for ground and naval targets---.

As we have all the facilities to upgrade these aircraft---it costs us a minsicule amount to have a working strike aircraft than can carry 2 anti ship missiles---.

We have a plethora of slightly or mildly used mirage 3 & 5's---we have a lots of brand new engines and some slightly used engines as well---and we can overhaul these engines as good as new---.

So again---this aircraft's primary use is strike---and some for recon---and for these missions---you do not need a top notch aircraft---you need a functional aircraft---.

Now for the JF17---its cost is cheap---because of our cheap labor---. The lockmart engineer makes in one day that our engineer makes it in one month as salary---.

Our technician's salary of one month is that of one days salary of a tech at lockmart---.

The JF17 is our most modern frontline aircraft---. For the cost ratio to a similarly capable foreign aircraft to the life of the aircraft---we still come out way ahead---.

Life cyclce is very important for a major weapons system---but what is more important is what it can do for you when you go to war---remember that is what is its primary function---fighting capability---.

Now knowing that we can life cycle upgrade it in 15 years---it gives us a bigger advantage---we will have a more modern aircraft in our hands in the 15th-16th year than as compared to 25-30 years upgrade---.

Next---once the JF17 reaches the BLK design stability in the BLK3 or BLK 4---we are much better off replacing the older blocks with newer ones---because we get the most modern weapons and electronics warfare systems available to us---.

By that time---the life cycle of our aircraft would also have increased by default---why---because as this is one pf the major builds by us and our allies---we will learn what needs to be done to make it a 30 or a 40 year life aircraft---.

Rome was not built in a day---.
 
The time is ripe to standardize mirage fleet for better operations, training, delivery and punch

The time is now to have rose 5 for mirage 5
 
Hi,

The 60's mirages fly for 50 years is because of the refurbishment of whole of the aircraft frame upwards---.

We are operating them because they still are an excellent platform for the job that they can do and the duties that they can perform---.

They still are an excellent strike platform for ground and naval targets---.

As we have all the facilities to upgrade these aircraft---it costs us a minsicule amount to have a working strike aircraft than can carry 2 anti ship missiles---.

We have a plethora of slightly or mildly used mirage 3 & 5's---we have a lots of brand new engines and some slightly used engines as well---and we can overhaul these engines as good as new---.

So again---this aircraft's primary use is strike---and some for recon---and for these missions---you do not need a top notch aircraft---you need a functional aircraft---.

Now for the JF17---its cost is cheap---because of our cheap labor---. The lockmart engineer makes in one day that our engineer makes it in one month as salary---.

Our technician's salary of one month is that of one days salary of a tech at lockmart---.

The JF17 is our most modern frontline aircraft---. For the cost ratio to a similarly capable foreign aircraft to the life of the aircraft---we still come out way ahead---.

Life cyclce is very important for a major weapons system---but what is more important is what it can do for you when you go to war---remember that is what is its primary function---fighting capability---.

Now knowing that we can life cycle upgrade it in 15 years---it gives us a bigger advantage---we will have a more modern aircraft in our hands in the 15th-16th year than as compared to 25-30 years upgrade---.

Next---once the JF17 reaches the BLK design stability in the BLK3 or BLK 4---we are much better off replacing the older blocks with newer ones---because we get the most modern weapons and electronics warfare systems available to us---.

By that time---the life cycle of our aircraft would also have increased by default---why---because as this is one pf the major builds by us and our allies---we will learn what needs to be done to make it a 30 or a 40 year life aircraft---.

Rome was not built in a day---.

So you are implying that the life cycle for the JF-17 is only 15 years and that according to you we should see the first JF-17s to be retiring by 2024. How you got the 15 year lifespan, I am not sure, but 5 years is not that far ahead so we will know soon enough.

PS, the fact is Pakistan only builds 58% of the airframe, where the lower cost of labor comes in handy. It does not apply to the rest of the parts sourced from Russia and China so I think the cost-benefit you guys are doing probably has some holes in it as well.

Second, given that PAF will be starting to retire its Mirages around 2025 timeframe, and we have a lot of them in the inventory to replace, it is completely out of the realm of possibility that Pakistan is going to be replacing not just the F-7s, but the Mirages as well ALONG with the JF-17 at the same time. Its simply not going to happen.

Not really,
Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
due to technological advancements and survival requirements.

How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
producing more thrust than weight ?

Are you talking about 2025 or 2055?
If 2025, then it would be very wise to be flying the JF-17, You can probably figure out yourself a rough estimate of how many 5th Gen aircraft will be flying in the subcontinent even in the next two decades. Your comment can be applied to say, F-7PG for example, but if your contention that the Block 1 and 2 versions of JF-17 will be useless in the next 5 years due to technological advancements, you are incorrect.
 
So you are implying that the life cycle for the JF-17 is only 15 years and that according to you we should see the first JF-17s to be retiring by 2024. How you got the 15 year lifespan, I am not sure, but 5 years is not that far ahead so we will know soon enough.

PS, the fact is Pakistan only builds 58% of the airframe, where the lower cost of labor comes in handy. It does not apply to the rest of the parts sourced from Russia and China so I think the cost-benefit you guys are doing probably has some holes in it as well.

Second, given that PAF will be starting to retire its Mirages around 2025 timeframe, and we have a lot of them in the inventory to replace, it is completely out of the realm of possibility that Pakistan is going to be replacing not just the F-7s, but the Mirages as well ALONG with the JF-17 at the same time. Its simply not going to happen.



Are you talking about 2025 or 2055?
If 2025, then it would be very wise to be flying the JF-17, You can probably figure out yourself a rough estimate of how many 5th Gen aircraft will be flying in the subcontinent even in the next two decades. Your comment can be applied to say, F-7PG for example, but if your contention that the Block 1 and 2 versions of JF-17 will be useless in the next 5 years due to technological advancements, you are incorrect.


Hi,

I am not saying much---only that the first upgrade is around 10 years---.
 
Same as now with 50 year old Mirages and F7's


Not really,
Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
due to technological advancements and survival requirements.

How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
producing more thrust than weight ?
 
Speaking of sensor fusion, i wonder if anyone has looked at a defensive drown swarm. We all know about their potential use in offense to both confuse an enemies networks and overwhem air defenses, but what about a defensive swarm. It would be a interesting idea for a nation like Pakistan who is trying to find an impenetrable defensive posture with just the right amount of offense to keep its neighborhood behaving well.

The idea is to stick radars on drones (for example, having small radars with say 50km ranges and datalinks allowing ground controllers to operate like AWAC controls. Other drones would be in the air with EW pods similar to growlers at various frequencies. This would cause havoc and blinding of any attacking force while leaving PAF with strong, multi-tiered situational awareness with AWACS, fighters, drones, and ground radar all datalinked into one network.
 
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The older JFTs can be relegated to strike or CAS. Or refurbished and sold to Third World countries.

The psyche of a fighter plane building country is very different from the psyche of a fighter plane buying country. We have to psychologically evolve to that psyche.

Replace "fighter plane" above with "tank", "car" or "ship" and you have the same issue at play.

Speaking of sensor fusion, i wonder if anyone has looked at a defensive drown swarm. We all know about their potential use in offense to both confuse an enemies networks and overwhem air defenses, but what about a defensive swarm. It would be a interesting idea for a nation like Pakistan who is trying to find an impenetrable defensive posture with just the right amount of offense to keep its neighborhood behaving well.

The idea is to stick radars on drones (for example, having small radars with say 50km ranges and datalinks allowing ground controllers to operate like AWAC controls. Other drones would be in the air with EW pods similar to growlers at various frequencies. This would cause havoc and blinding of any attacking force while leaving PAF with strong, multi-tiered situational awareness with AWACS, fighters, drones, and ground radar all datalinked into one network.

Hi, you may find this interesting: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ucavs-the-future-of-air-warfare.86119/
 
Not really,
Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
due to technological advancements and survival requirements.

How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
producing more thrust than weight ?

Hi,

Basically it all depends on what the neighboring forces have in the arena---.
 
So you are implying that the life cycle for the JF-17 is only 15 years and that according to you we should see the first JF-17s to be retiring by 2024. How you got the 15 year lifespan, I am not sure, but 5 years is not that far ahead so we will know soon enough.

PS, the fact is Pakistan only builds 58% of the airframe, where the lower cost of labor comes in handy. It does not apply to the rest of the parts sourced from Russia and China so I think the cost-benefit you guys are doing probably has some holes in it as well.

Second, given that PAF will be starting to retire its Mirages around 2025 timeframe, and we have a lot of them in the inventory to replace, it is completely out of the realm of possibility that Pakistan is going to be replacing not just the F-7s, but the Mirages as well ALONG with the JF-17 at the same time. Its simply not going to happen.



Are you talking about 2025 or 2055?
If 2025, then it would be very wise to be flying the JF-17, You can probably figure out yourself a rough estimate of how many 5th Gen aircraft will be flying in the subcontinent even in the next two decades. Your comment can be applied to say, F-7PG for example, but if your contention that the Block 1 and 2 versions of JF-17 will be useless in the next 5 years due to technological advancements, you are incorrect.

Same as now with 50 year old Mirages and F7's

Hi,

Basically it all depends on what the neighboring forces have in the arena---.
@MastanKhan thanks for paraphrasing.

@Thorough Pro and @GriffinsRule , Study the following phenomenon.
Your answer is in here.

Growth-Curve.png
 
@MastanKhan thanks for paraphrasing.

@Thorough Pro and @GriffinsRule , Study the following phenomenon.
Your answer is in here.

Growth-Curve.png

Hi,

Love that sample of growth curve---. The Mirage 3 / 5 are upgraded in a manner never thought that it could happen to this aircraft---even by the manufacturer---.

As it is getting older---the aircraft is going towards the peak of its performance---amazing---simply amazing---. Only the french can design something like that or the americans---.

Now can you just imagine---if we had opted for the Mirage F1 in the 80's and gotten the plant to build the as well---.
 
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