Pakistan Air Force - An Analysis

[SBD-3]

Add to It :

In Pakistani Side :

3-5 More AWACS
IL78 Refuellers
More F16s [ Possible ]
T129s from Turky

well I can add a lot of value to this list....but i won't (not everything is for discussion)

Indian Side :

3 More Falcons -YES
DRDO AWACS-(Expected in 2011 as per DrDo- a reading for you below)
Several SPYDER and Akash Squadrons (Not considered fighters)
MKI AESA Upgrade (Not considered a weapon system)
Probably 3-6 More Refuelers [ Boeing 767 / IL 78s ]
6-12 C130s
10 Globe Masters-not considered fighters
Airborne Brahmos-okey lets assume it

Dedicated Satellite in 2014-no idea needs a bit of research

Indians have an edge but Role Wise, Pakistani numbers are sufficient for a Defensive Role.-yes

here is the reading btw

Defense Update reports that a July 2008 contract for 3 smaller AWACS based on the ERJ-145 hasn’t stopped Israel’s IAI from promoting its Gulstream G550 CAEW, which uses an Elta AESA EL/W-2085 radar that’s closely related to the one in India’s 2 planned IL-76 AWACS. The jet can perform aerial target tracking, along with some electronic intelligence (ELINT) and communications intercepts (COMINT); it will succeed the E-2C Hawkeye and 707 Phalcon in Israeli Air Force service, and Singapore’s RSAF recently inducted its first aircraft.

India’s history of project failures makes promotion of the G550 a wise move, in case the DRDO’s ERJ-145 AWACS radar fails. The move may be aimed at another target, however – India’s options for additional IL-76 Phalcons. The G550 is an extreme range business jet, and Israeli data gives their CAEW variant an endurance of 9 hours. This compares to 6 hours on station for the larger IL-76, which is also more expensive to operate. As a demonstration of its capabilities, a G550 CAEW flew non-stop from Israel to India for Aero India 2009.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

You have to learn how to add numbers buddy..I'm giving you Kamra's maximum capacity of production according to your source, now you can add the numbers and ended it up on your target 300+ jets


2011-------------16+10
2012-------------30+10
2013-------------30+10
2014-------------30+10
2015-------------30+10
====
???
I'm going to sleep well Good night friend

Well - there is no limit on Chinese purchases they have alot more facilities
what the air marshal stated was look , we are increasing production speeds yearly so
expect that to increase 2010, then more in 2011 we should have sorted out all issues
by 2011 and then We can REALLY get cranking with JF17 thunders

By 2011 our engineers will be training new batch of engineers and capacity and production is bound to increase 2 folds to maximum capacity of 30 planes locally , not including what is being done in China

2010-------------12+10
2011-------------16+16 (Notice there is a steep curve which increases upwards)
2012-------------30+20 (AdvBlock 2 JF17 THUNDER) + AESA Radar + 2 Seat + Laser Pods
2013-------------30+20 (Adv Block 2 JF17 THUNDER) + AESA Radar + 2 Seat + Laser Pods
2014-------------30+20 (Adv Block 2 JF17 THUNDER) + AESA Radar + 2 Seat + Laser Pods
2015-------------30+20 (AdvBlock 2 JF17 THUNDER) + AESA Radar + 2 Seat + Laser Pods


** In 2010 alone we will get 18 F16 and 22 JF17 thunders, so that is like 40 new
planes - which is a substantial increase

Note we will already have J10B made in China by Mid 2014 These are already being produced for Pakistan as we speak 36 state of the art babies with option to be up to 150+ J10B planes

Beyond 2015, we will be focusing J11 planes or may be Stealth UAV since we already are self reliant on survailence birds or JF17 stealth variants -

I hope this is more clear -


I hope you understand what is meant by chinese cooperation

a) Increase local production double it up
b) Increase support on planes assembled in China and then sent over
c) Greater cooperation to train more engineers on Fighter maintenence etc
e) Equiping the thunder with AESA Radars, and new engines and laser pods
for enagaing other targets etc

Right now our engineers are going thru what is called , a production rate increase phase - to nail down , the process so that it can be perfected for maximum efficiency .. and speed -

The mirages , are still lethal birds to enage ground targets , like Tanks and support role for Army , or taking out the Aircraft carriers and frigates etc with excocet missiles so anyone who says the Mirages will be suddenly not used its not happening becasue , these planes can be shifted to Navy Operations - or Ground support roles -

>> The best part of mirages is they are under no sanctions ad we can get parts
upgrades, and we will can just make them more efficient with BVR missiles and
air to ground missiles

If 80 of our mirages every went on a real mission they can knock out 80-160 indian tanks in matter of 4 hours, or take out 40% of Indian navy

Also we just go many chiese planes in 2002 why would be phase out brand new chinese planes - ???

 

[1000VA]

Well - there is no limit on Chinese purchases they have alot more facilities


2011-------------16+10
2012-------------30+30
2013-------------30+30
2014-------------30+30
2015-------------30+30


I hope you understand what I mean by chinese cooperation

Then why don't you purchase all 300+ aircraft's on 2011 and start induction and training....

 

[notorious_eagle]

All F-7P and F-7PG are reported to be replaced completely by JF-17 by 2015

Correction Sir, the older airframes will be phased out slowly but not the F7P's that were recieved recently and have newer airframes. The F7's are excellent point defence fighters, their A2A capabilities in WVR is nothing short of exceptional. They constantly defeat our F16A's(most manuverable and agile F16) in mock dog fights, their manuverability and agility make them excellent point defence aircrafts and PAF intends to use them for that purpose. F7's performed superbly during the Kargil War and post Kargil, on occasions F7 locked on Mirage 2000. Dont read too much into Pakistani journalism regarding PAF, most of our journalists dont have the slightest idea how PAF operates and traditionally PAF hardly ever makes its intentions and capabilities public.

F16A/B cannot be upgraded to C/D standards due to different airframe. Although they can be upgraded to an extent that the difference between the two is very less.

True but their avionics and radar's are going to be upgraded to Block 52 standards, most importantly they will be able to fire the AMRAAM's with their JHMCS. They will have Link 16 Datalink, Sniper Pod and AIDEW's pod. This will enhance their capability because not only will they have top of the line electronics they can datalink with our AWACS to detect incoming enemy aircrafts. The only setback is they wont have improvement in their mission range and payload capacity like the Newer Block 52's have, but avionics and radar wise they will be equal. Their are strong indications that USN will release the F16's that were embargoed, but we will have to wait but i wouldnt be surprised if additional F16's are released by US from their surplus stocks.

One more point, for some reason people tend to believe that our Mirages are old and thus impotent against the IAF. I would like to point out that our ROSE UPGRADED Mirages are excellent aircrafts, with the additions that were added they are almost 4th Generation Aircrafts. Mirage V perform better in A2G role than our F16's and that is exactly what they are being used for, their FLIR targetting pod is deadly accurate and can be operated at night unlike our F16's. Our Mirage III's are used for Anti Ship operations and A2A roles, it were our Mirage III's that attacked Mirage2000's formations and performed aggressive maneuvers near Lahore post Mumbai forcing them to turn back . Our Rose upgraded Mirages are not being replaced anytime soon, on paper PAF looks weak with their obselete aircrafts such as Mirage III and F7's but if you look closely at their capabilities and how they will be employed, it wont be that easy for IAF. Things are not as black and white as they appear my friend, IAF knows that and that is why they didnt dare to act naughty post Mumbai attacks.

 

[Kompromat]

Here are some points that are in my mind.

JF-17 Thunders would be procured in a Number of : 300-350 even more depending on the Success of Block II and Block III.

F-16. 41+18+15 = 75 (Though i think we will get more Vipers C/D and also PAF is negotiating with USAF for used Vipers and to Upgrade them to Block 52 standard from TAI.

USAF will provide 15 vipers to Pakistan for free under foreign military aid program )

FC/20: Pakistan will get at least 150 F-10/B's not 36.

Initial 36 FC-20 ordered, to be delivered by 2015 [6] [7] [8] [9] after improvements are made to meet PAF requirements.[10] [11] Upgrades to radar and avionics reported to be required by PAF in 2007.[12] FC-20 believed to be a version of the upgraded J-10B, incorporating an IRST, diverterless supersonic intake, new radar and modified vertical stabiliser fin.[13] Contract believed to have been signed in November 2009, delivery of dozens more aircraft likely, possibly up to a total of 150 FC-20.[14]

JXX: ??????


So according to me by 2020 PAF would fly.

350+75+150 = 575 Jets a decent Fleet.

Jxx : ???


I am sure we are going to get more used vipers and get them upgraded & we also may end up having at least 100 + vipers.

Regards:

 

[Jigs]

Here are some points that are in my mind.

JF-17 Thunders would be procured in a Number of : 300-350 even more depending on the Success of Block II and Block III.

F-16. 41+18+15 = 75 (Though i think we will get more Vipers C/D and also PAF is negotiating with USAF for used Vipers and to Upgrade them to Block 52 standard from TAI.

USAF will provide 15 vipers to Pakistan for free under foreign military aid program )

FC/20: Pakistan will get at least 150 F-10/B's not 36.




JXX: ??????


So according to me by 2020 PAF would fly.

350+75+150 = 575 Jets a decent Fleet.

Jxx : ???


I am sure we are going to get more used vipers and get them upgraded & we also may end up having at least 100 + vipers.

Regards:

I wonder if Pakistan can acquire Turkish F-16s after F-35s come into service...that is if we decide on replacing F-16s too since F-4s and F-5s seem to be the ones that will phase out.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

a) After we have the 75 F16C/D & upgraded A/B block planes we should say good by
to F16 vipers - May be get just 20 more F16 E class

b) More focus should go into BVR missiles , and laser pods - and amunition

c) Also AESA radar aquisition should be priority & development of local electronics and
research facilities

In term of fighter planes , we should seek out Euro Fighter 24 units

More focus should go towards Navy and Surface to Air Artiliery , and Heavy transport
planes - we should get at least 10 new heavy transport planes C130 types

Going over 800 fighter planes is not necessary , we have enough at that point for national defence purpose, and be aquire 2 stealth bombers


By 2020, Pakistani fleet will be well over 1100 fighter planes

350 JF17 Thunder
150 J10B
192 Mirage (3/5)
192 Chinese
80 F16 (Block A/B/C/D)

With out counting the J11 possibilities & JXX versions so 1100+ is sufficient amount of fighters for air defences, what would be however nice is that we up grade the fighter fleet with solid air defences - and settelite spying and communication abilities and central commad & control center -

 

[Jigs]

a) After we have the 75 F16C/D & upgraded A/B block planes we should say good by
to F16 vipers - May be get just 20 more F16 E class

b) More focus should go into BVR missiles , and laser pods - and amunition

c) Also AESA radar aquisition should be priority & development of local electronics and
research facilities

In term of fighter planes , we should seek out Euro Fighter 24 units

More focus should go towards Navy and Surface to Air Artiliery , and Heavy transport
planes - we should get at least 10 new heavy transport planes C130 types

Going over 800 fighter planes is not necessary , we have enough at that point for national defence purpose, and be aquire 2 stealth bombers


By 2020, Pakistani fleet will be well over 1100 fighter planes

350 JF17 Thunder
150 J10B
192 Mirage (3/5)
192 Chinese
80 F16 (Block A/B/C/D)

With out counting the J11 possibilities & JXX versions so 1100+ is sufficient amount of fighters for air defences, what would be however nice is that we up grade the fighter fleet with solid air defences - and settelite spying and communication abilities and central commad & control center -

The Block 60s are very expensive you would be better off investing that money into weapons(BVR) and upgrades(pods) for the JF-17 fleet. AESA radars will be hard to acquire i don't believe china has any right now. The older stuff has to be retired or it will end up costing more money to maintain then they are even worth. The Eurofighter price range is around the same to the F-35 and probably out of Pakistan's budget.

Best choice would be further investment into Chinese aircraft platforms and trying to acquire more block 52s. AESA radars would eventually be developed as time goes on.

 

[chantpapipart2]

a) over 1100 fighter planes

350 JF17 Thunder
150 J10B
192 Mirage (3/5)
192 Chinese
80 F16 (Block A/B/C/D)

With out counting the J11 possibilities & JXX versions so 1100+ is sufficient amount of fighters for air defences, what would be however nice is that we up grade the fighter fleet with solid air defences - and settelite spying and communication abilities and central commad & control center -

Do you have any Idea what you are saying.....PAF currently operates only 320 planes and you expect it to reach 1100 in less than 10years. And where did you get your number from..


350 JF17 Thunder

PAF currently operates only 11, so you expect 34 a/c / year.

150 J10B

Only 36 has been ordered and that’s too has been suspended. Nothing is decided yet. Please check this link.

ONLINE - International News Network

192 Mirage (3/5)

PAF operates

Mireage 3 - 121
Mirage 5 - 60

Please check how many of your Mirages can't operate in night.

192 Chinese

These planes will be phased out and will be replaced by JF 17. So why you are including that in 2020 list.


80 F16 (Block A/B/C/D)

You received 40 F16 initially. Attrition losses 9. Remaining 31.

12 F-16C and 6 F-16D Block 52+ were ordered with a further 18 aircraft optional.

So total F 16 - 49 with option of 18.

 

[ejaz007]

Can author provide some details of his working such as source of his conclusions.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Can author provide some details of his working such as source of his conclusions.

The only data I referred to was the number of aircraft today and the number of programs going on, PAC manufacturing capacity, purchase history of aircraft. All of it from different, but credible sources, also I took the best (favoring Pak) figures I could find.
Also to counter check I studied one of your articles "History of Pakistan Air Force"
Are you the same Ejaz Hussain?

 

[jagjitnatt]

Correction Sir, the older airframes will be phased out slowly but not the F7P's that were recieved recently and have newer airframes.

Actually F-7P were bought in 1988. Its the F7PG that was bought in 1999 and delivered between 1999 and 2002.
sea harrier | 1982 | 2534 | Flight Archive
But they are supposed to be replaced with JF-17 after 2015, because although new, they are a copy of Mig21 which itself is very old.

One more point, for some reason people tend to believe that our Mirages are old and thus impotent against the IAF. I would like to point out that our ROSE UPGRADED Mirages are excellent aircrafts, with the additions that were added they are almost 4th Generation Aircrafts.

Sure these are great aircraft but these were bought decades back. The ones bought later and upgraded were bought from Australia and France where they were already in service and were about to retire.
So this is their last decade, after that maintenance would not be cost effective.
PAF is the only operator left in the world

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

350 JF17 Thunder

PAF currently operates only 11, so you expect 34 a/c / year.:woot

:
I hope u know that Pakistan just recieved more JF17s from china a few days back?
Now combine our PAC built JF17s and chinese delivered ones.
150 J10B

Only 36 has been ordered and that’s too has been suspended. Nothing is decided yet. Please check this link.

Read Air chiefs statements about buying more JF10Bs after its test flights and results will depend on the induction of more jets.
[

B]192 Mirage (3/5)[/B]

PAF operates

Mireage 3 - 121
Mirage 5 - 60

Please check how many of your Mirages can't operate in night.

I love wiki.
Check out ROSE upgrades by Sagem,griffo and then try posting...
192 Chinese

These planes will be phased out and will be replaced by JF 17. So why you are including that in 2020 list.

Not all J7s will be retired what about our new jets we bought in this decade?(sanction era)?

80 F16 (Block A/B/C/D)

You received 40 F16 initially. Attrition losses 9. Remaining 31.

Right now we have 42 F16 going for upgradation...

12 F-16C and 6 F-16D Block 52+ were ordered with a further 18 aircraft optional.

Yes they will be bought.Not to forget the indicators that USA may release our F-16 purchased through peace gate programme.

So total F 16 - 49 with option of 18.

When right now we have 42 F-16 and 18 more coming in june and rest programmes do the maths.
P.S=You sound pretty frustrated....

 

[Rank]

IAF

1000 PAK-FA
1000 Su30Mki
1000 F35 (with Transfer of technology)
1000 F18 Super hornet

Upcoming series in IAF

NASA Rocket
F16 Block 70IN special version for IAF
1000 B52
1000 B2 (Transfer of Technolog)

4000-5000 Aircrafts

PAF

10 F16 rest of DLU (Down Life upgrade)
5 JF17 (rest of under use by Talibans)
5 Mirage Jasmine
1 J10

20-30 Aircrafts


"Gal he muka deti may"


PS: Remember you have 4000-5000 Aircraft Compare to

We spend money on Nuclear tech so we have 500-1000 Nuclear Missile ICBM etc warheads

hoon aram e ?


Stupid Thread!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Nice stealth....Now thats a true comparison