Pakistan, a British problem, but a German solution?

[Genesis]

So basically you want Pakistan to unite with even more diverse and different Muslim countries to fight a country whose culture, history and heritage is intertwined with ours?

So you didn't read any of my posts, or understood it if you did, cause Austrians ARE GERMAN. Fighting India is not a must, but uniting south Asia and getting prestige while getting back some lands is not really a bad deal is it.

Since pakistan wants to settle the Indian issue, this is the way to do it, but if you feel like there are no issues, you are free to not do that.

@AUSTERLITZ

I specifically said not to take land, but to form a confederation. German empire, Prussia didn't annex any land after Austro Prussian war, they became the head of the empire, but the different states still have autonomy of sorts.

empires are formed with Vision, Mao started with less than 1000 men, no food, no weapons, just a vision, well today his portrait hangs on Tiananmen.

If you infer that I meant that Muslim should unite because of religion, then you didn't get me at all.

Muslim would object the least to a union of Muslim, not that they would support it.

If Pakistan can be shown as a world beater, with a few victories here and there, Pakistan can and will be able to do it. Refer to any of my posts, I don't mean taking over their land or changing their customs, but to form a confederation, with a Pakistani leader.

As to can't beat India, I specifically gave ways Pakistan can win, also the union is what will combat India to give Pakistan the power to be a great power.

 

[dray]

But today's Pakistan faces a different problem, the Indian population has exploded, it's land is bigger and did manage to improve the country's economy, they were compared to China and billed to surpass us for a while, however short that lasted, is still an accomplishment.

Naah!! It was no accomplishment, our current Govt. wasted it. But I can assure you that it is far from being over and we will going to overtake Chinese economy, and you will be able to witness this in your lifetime only.

Now on topic:

1. There are already unions among several Muslims nations for different economic or political purposes, but that doesn't mean they will go to war for the sake of one such union, and that too a war that is not theirs. And even if such an union happens, Pakistan will be in no position to lead that, the reasons could be economic, political, or even religious!!
Add to that, USA is a major player in that region, it virtually controls many parts of the middle-east.

2. In spite of the differences between India & Pakistan (and Bangladesh), we are basically birds of the same feather, eventually the differences between us will die down, the rise in education, prosperity, and rising people to people contacts and exposure to each others worlds will ease the tension with time, and information technology will also play its part for better people to people contact, like in pdf!! Here we might be fighting with each other, but we are also seeking each other at the same time, you will find Indians and Pakistanis are more involved with each other than with any other nationalities.

Our future lies in cooperation, not confrontation, and I believe a South-Asian union is more desirable and more likely to happen in future.

 

[Chronos]

@Genesis

Without a humongous Economic growth figure, India's population is always a liability.

The politicians always talked about a pdemographic dividend, without a flurry of semi-skilled jobs that require minimal education, it is going to be painful to watch India add another 400 Million people in 50 years.

 

[dray]

So basically you want Pakistan to unite with even more diverse and different Muslim countries to fight a country whose culture, history and heritage is intertwined with ours?

Wonderfully expressed in one sentence.

No, He means in current scenario the huge "Indian Subcontinent/South Asia's" true potential is largely undermined on world stage due to the division of two basic nation states created by British Empire, in order to have a real impact close to its potential, one nation state/model needs to give way to the other to lead. In his opinion, due to religion/ummah concept Pakistan can create a far wider impact on world stage than the other one.

If we involve in contest then we will waste out energy on each other, a better idea would be to cooperate and grow together, like the way Jinnah envisioned a relationship similar to US-Canada. An honest effort from both sides can make this happen.

 

[OrionHunter]

So how could this be done.

1) Massive industrialization of Pakistan, this is obvious, a strong economy is the bases of a strong nation. Pakistan's close to 200 million people can be a huge economy quickly if it gets its act together

Where's the money? Pakistan at present is staring at a debt trap. For starters, it's trying to acquire six Chinese subs that would cost it a whopping $6 billion! Other defence deals are in the pipeline too. Where's the money left for industrialization?

2) Massive build up of the arms industry and investments in related industries.

As above. Where's the money? It's a catch 22 situation. You can't embark on a massive arms build-up without a strong economy that would result after massive industrialization. And you can't industralise if you're spending what little funds you have on nukes, expensive subs and other fancy military equipment.

3) Victory, Pakistan must incorporate some Islamic nations into its sphere of influence in the middle east, this can either be done militarily or through economy, but Pakistan must be the head of a few organizations that would give it the final say in any decision in terms of foreign affairs, defense, and an important say in head of state, and certain policies that may affect the union.

No go! The Muslim countries in the Middle East have their own agendas. Saudi Arabia is on course for dominating the Muslim world with its enormous amount of petrodollars. Pakistan cannot hope to match the military might of the Saudis. Muslim Shia states don't see eye to eye with Muslim Sunni States. And the impotent OIC which was to be an Ummah for the Muslims of the world is a lame duck. No one cares two hoots for it. Not even some Muslim nations!

4) If Pakistan manages all three, which is a big step, but if it can be done, Pakistan and the Islamic union could potentially take on India, to take all the land it lost or thought was Pakistan's back. But that's not the main objective, the objective show show South Asia, Pakistan is the way to go and the premier power and thus uniting South Asia under Pakistan and excluding India.

You think the Islamic states would take on India? Do you even know the volume of trade between the Islamic nations of the Middle East and India? Compare that with their trade with Pakistan which is peanuts!

For example, Indo-Saudi trade is set to reach $60 billion by next year. In comparison, Saudi-Pak trade is a mere $6 billion! Trade with other countries in the Middle East show similar proportional statistics. So where does Pakistan stand in all this? How will they dominate the Muslim world especially in the Middle East? What are their credentials? Nukes? No one cares a fig whether you're nuclear armed or not these days. A country's national interest is governed by economics, not nukes!

This would make a effective great power, if not super power status. Sounds far fetched, but so did the German empire. But as we all know that happened.

Are you trying to compare Germany with Pakistan? The Germans fought for their nation. They were ultra nationalists. Pakistan fights for religion, not for a nation. It was born purely out of religious necessity. The difference here is stark.

In a nutshell, your thesis is full of holes. Your idea of wanting the Muslim world to unite with Pakistan to fight against India is utterly nonsensical and devoid of intelligence and a complete lack of knowledge of modern day geopolitics.

Have a nice day!

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

So you didn't read any of my posts, or understood it if you did, cause Austrians ARE GERMAN. Fighting India is not a must, but uniting south Asia and getting prestige while getting back some lands is not really a bad deal is it.

Since pakistan wants to settle the Indian issue, this is the way to do it, but if you feel like there are no issues, you are free to not do that.

@AUSTERLITZ

I specifically said not to take land, but to form a confederation. German empire, Prussia didn't annex any land after Austro Prussian war, they became the head of the empire, but the different states still have autonomy of sorts.

empires are formed with Vision, Mao started with less than 1000 men, no food, no weapons, just a vision, well today his portrait hangs on Tiananmen.

If you infer that I meant that Muslim should unite because of religion, then you didn't get me at all.

Muslim would object the least to a union of Muslim, not that they would support it.

If Pakistan can be shown as a world beater, with a few victories here and there, Pakistan can and will be able to do it. Refer to any of my posts, I don't mean taking over their land or changing their customs, but to form a confederation, with a Pakistani leader.

As to can't beat India, I specifically gave ways Pakistan can win, also the union is what will combat India to give Pakistan the power to be a great power.

And where will get the few victories?They have no space for any expansion.Sandwiched between china,india and afghanisthan.No room for expansion,and USA won't allow any aggression without mass sanctions and even military force if full scale invasion happens.

 

[Chronos]

@OrionHunter

Take it easy dude. Give the guy some reprieve from your intellectual onslaught.

 

[SrNair]

@Genesis good imagination friend.But you dont get the basic facts.Two powerful countries in middle east is Iran and Saudi Arabia.Both are intense rivals.So your imagination lost its half part.Now talk about other countries .All countries except Syria,Egypt and Pakistan are quite advanced and rich,developed country.Rich only cares about rich and power only cares about power.So you can understand.
Now Western countries and India maintain a good relation with these countries.They will help Pakistan in an event of war against
India.But only by money or material supply and it will end there. They dont take interest in a union against India.
Iran is a muslim country and neighbour of Islamic Emirates of Pakistan.But Pakistan cant even manage a good relation with that country.If they do that it will give a huge benefit for Pakistan.And do you know why?Saudi Arabia influence.Their influence can change the fortune of Pakistan.
Allies and Unions are good but only for good intentions.If they used it for bad actions then it is a double edged sword.

Come on man this is new world.

 

[sherin616]

looking history what happened to germany after all of it
Pakistan cant cantrol all that power

 

[third eye]

Being on a Pakistan forum I thought to at least do some stuff on Pakistan.

Today Pakistan cannot take on India in its current form, that's just a fact. Even if it can hold off an invasion, it will only be on the defensive and will have to play by the pace of India. It cannot achieve its own objective, advance its own national interests, but there is a huge advantage Pakistan has, religion.

Today the Middle east, Bangladesh, and parts of Africa is mostly Muslim, while some of ASEAN like Indonesia, Malaysia.


So how could this be done.

1) Massive industrialization of Pakistan, this is obvious, a strong economy is the bases of a strong nation. Pakistan's close to 200 million people can be a huge economy quickly if it gets its act together

2) Massive build up of the arms industry and investments in related industries. This will obviously need to take effect after the industrialization, but the good news is that Pakistan already has experience in some The JF-17, the French subs, F-22p, it's own tank and a bunch of other things.

3) Victory, Pakistan must incorporate some Islamic nations into its sphere of influence in the middle east, this can either be done militarily or through economy, but Pakistan must be the head of a few organizations that would give it the final say in any decision in terms of foreign affairs, defense, and an important say in head of state, and certain policies that may affect the union.

4) If Pakistan manages all three, which is a big step, but if it can be done, Pakistan and the Islamic union could potentially take on India, to take all the land it lost or thought was Pakistan's back. But that's not the main objective, the objective show show South Asia, Pakistan is the way to go and the premier power and thus uniting South Asia under Pakistan and excluding India.


This would make a effective great power, if not super power status. Sounds far fetched, but so did the German empire. But as we all know that happened.

Please don't bring what finally happened to the German empire into this mix, that's for completely different reasons and has no reflection on the effectiveness of the unification, and the achieving of great power status for Germany.

Much like Bismark's thought process, a unified entity, with a degree of autonomy, but with Prussia at the head, while excluding Austria.

If all this can be achieved, what's next can be any number of things.

It is nice to read some original work and not the usual cut & paste stuff.

It would have been nicer to read if the theme would have been developing Pakistan to make it a better nation & meet the aspirations of it citizens.

Unfortunately, it appears that the idea behind all this original thinking is to do down India !

A few self defeating premises and facts not considered are below.

1. When have the Muslims ever been united that they ever will in the future ?

2. Why would any Muslim nation accept the leadership of Pakistan , what earth shaking advantage would Pakistan offer to the Muslim world which others cannot. For instance KSA has both Mecca & Oil - the Muslim world cannot run without either.Except for self professed leadership there is nothing Pakistan has. how effective is the OIC and how many times since its existence has Pk led it ?

3. The write presupposes that since Pakistan has a problem with India , the entire Muslim world either should therefore also have one or stand to Pakistans side when called. This is ludicrous.

4. While Islam may be a uniting force it also is has a dividing element within. Do Iran & KSA see eye to eye ? They both are dominant Muslim nations .The Shia - Sunni divide is deep & permanent enough for Muslims not to unite and allows Non Muslim nations to play upon and ensure the divide remains and gets deeper.

5. While quoting the example of Germany is good, what is ignored that Germany looked inwards first, solved its inherent internal issues first before looking outside. In the given ' formula for success' unless Pk comes to terms with its geography and evolves a workable model to live & develop by its going nowhere. Will the suicide bombers stop ? Better still with the rest of the world allow them to stop ?

6 It also presupposes that the rest of the world comprises of dolts who will allow such a ' grand alliance' to happen as they silently watch. Muslim nations need non muslim nations more to survive than they need Muslim nations. Pk without China is a non entity. China has muslim problems in its regions , why would it allow such an alliance that would make it redundant in the region ? The next step will be to ignite restive regions in Chine where Muslims are in numbers.

7. Countries that live in the same time zone cannot decide when the Moon is sighted can hardly be expected to form a Military / Political union under Pakistan.

Lastly since the premise of post No 1 is religion - friend, religion is like a Dick, each man has one, only fools take it out & flash it in public.

Religion is the doing that led to creation of Pakistan, they way things are & the way people think, unless things change soon it shall be its undoing too.

 

[Genesis]

@OrionHunter

Take it easy dude. Give the guy some reprieve from your intellectual onslaught.

lol, bring it.

@OrionHunter

I understand you are retired?

If yes, you must be alive in 1970s and 60s, what were your thoughts on China?

Nehru wanted to be the leader of the third world, so in essence we would be under India.

What are your thoughts on China now?

No money you can get money, no prestige you can get prestige no power you can get power.

I'll admit, this is just a random thought of mine. Pakistan is not moving in the right way for this to take place, I'm not seeing what I want to see, but if they can do it, maybe they can get it down in 3-40 years. But they must be moving in the right direction.

 

[Chronos]

lol, bring it.

How can I bring it, when I agree with most of what you said?

Even if India grows at 8-9% for the next 40 years, I perceive no substantial improvement.

@Genesis if you are going to Mumbai, ask the Indians there what they perceive of China. It will be admiration mixed with Envy.

Most of them will state their respect for it's discipline, it's ability to get things done and Indians will lament their own failures in this regard.

Plus Indians are dark and low IQ and never will amount to anything and so forth.

 

[SrNair]

lol, bring it.

@OrionHunter

I understand you are retired?

If yes, you must be alive in 1970s and 60s, what were your thoughts on China?

Nehru wanted to be the leader of the third world, so in essence we would be under India.

What are your thoughts on China now?

No money you can get money, no prestige you can get prestige no power you can get power.

I'll admit, this is just a random thought of mine. Pakistan is not moving in the right way for this to take place, I'm not seeing what I want to see, but if they can do it, maybe they can get it down in 3-40 years. But they must be moving in the right direction.

Presently Pakistan economy is on the pillar of American Aid and IMF bailout

How can I bring it, when I agree with most of what you said?

Even if India grows at 8-9% for the next 40 years, I perceive no substantial improvement.

@Genesis if you are going to Mumbai, ask the Indians there what they perceive of China. It will be admiration mixed with Envy.

Most of them will state their respect for it's discipline, it's ability to get things done and Indians will lament their own failures in this regard.

Dont be so negative.If you want a chinese style growth you need to agree with a government style similar to chinese.Pure communist dictatiorship.Democracy dont have a place there . @Ravi Nair GoI dont have another option.Due to increasing number of youth they only resorted in high GDP aim.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Germany had Bismark. We unfortunately have Nawaz Sharif.

 

[Chronos]

Germany had Bismark. We unfortunately have Nawaz Sharif.
View attachment 20413

At least both were fat.

Presently Pakistan economy is on the pillar of American Aid and IMF bailout



Dont be so negative.If you want a chinese style growth you need to agree with a government style similar to chinese.Pure communist dictatiorship.Democracy dont have a place there.

Indians need Roti, Not freedom of speech to shout their hunger