Pakistan 5th Generation Fighter Possibilities

[Genghis khan1]

If you do a bit or research you will find out that any such Turkish program is going to have significant input from other western countries/companies including but not limited to engine from the US(P&W or GE) or Eurojet, other input from SAAB(Sweden) and BAE(UK) and it would not be a surprise if the AESA on this plane is procured from overseas as well. While one would want to advance local industry producing radars; if a cheaper and better offer of AESA is made from overseas I dont see why that would not be integrated.

SO, this is not a viable solution to PAFs 5th gen fighter requirement in the future. A plane that relies so much on input from countries that have previously repeatedly refused to sell defence equipment to Pakistan should be a BIG HIGH-FLYING RED FLAG if we are to learn anything form the 90s fiasco(due to which we are still operating Mig-21 variants with no BVR capability).

I am pretty sure someone will bring this up again in a few days/weeks.

Turkey is doing everything on ToT. They signed MoU with Eurojet and some other companies to help them develop their engine. Which means engine will be Turkish not American or European. same goes for most of the other parts and equipment. We are already working we chinese. It's the right time for Pakistan to jump in for the western technology and get the piece of the pie. It will tremendously help PAC in improving their engineering capabilities. Sitting around and just waiting for Chinese to improve their unproven tech and than buying it is totally a foolish idea. It will do no good in the development of our engineer and scientist.

 

[DrWatson775]

Turkey is doing everything on ToT. They signed MoU with Eurojet and some other companies to help them develop their engine. Which means engine will be Turkish not American or European. same goes for most of the other parts and equipment. We are already working we chinese. It's the right time for Pakistan to jump in for the western technology and get the piece of the pie. It will tremendously help PAC in improving their engineering capabilities. Sitting around and just waiting for Chinese to improve their unproven tech and than buying it is totally a foolish idea. It will do no good in the development of our engineer and scientist.

I wish it was that simple. Tot is never a blank check. Forward sales of tot are highly complicated and with multiple tot agreements it never going to happen when the end customer is Pakistan.

 

[thepakistani]

Shebazi,

Your post is very vague about what the engineering student accomplished in pakistan.

Are you an engineer---then you should know that it is senseless to invest into the research and manufacturing of a new aircraft engine for a country like pakistan.

Pakistan doesnot have any infra-structure, any research facility, any qualified engineers----and to top it all---just to manufacture one successful engine---pakistan has no funds in its kitty to even think about it---it will cost in the league of 10 billion dollars to come up with a working model---and then at the end of the day---that model will be shelved---because other engines would be available that are better and cheaper from other sources---

I have been telling this other kid---put your thinking cap on and listen---Mr Ford's time and kind of ingenuity is over with the last last century---today is a time for the world economy----car giants like ford, mercedes, chevrolet, toyota, mitsubishi, hyundai, kia etc etc buy power plants and power trains from other manufacturers----for the longest time, chrysler used mitsubishi engines in their cars and vans---mercedes used american automatic transmissionsin their benz, hyundai used all their power plants made by mitsubishi---even though mercedes has sold chrysler---but chrysler is going to be using the 3.5 litre merces engine---

Common sense prevails when time comes to procure these power plants---the margin of profit, the time it takes to design---and the cost factors will always be the determining factors---so please take your emotional speeches and save them for something else.

Aircarft engine designers have the same task at hand---most of the designers and manufacturers have a hundred plus years of manufacturing experience behind them---the problem is that due to the high technology design and high performance results---there may not be any new members added to the guest list of jet figheter aircraft engine manufacturers---no third world nation has the money to do so.

Let us move ahead with the discussion---it is useless trying to bash me and getting emotional---.

MastanKhan for correction
Mercedes-Benz g7tronic and manual 6 speed 4wd 7tronic all are made in house NOT BY ANY USA manufacturer
BMW 8 tronic is ZF made transmission a vw group manufacturer.
In past when Chrysler Daimler was a joint even then Chrysler used Bens parts not voice versa.

In jet engine very sofisticated metallurgy is required for engine blades to withstand very high temperature and pressure that is the key point where China had problems
BUT
Uranium and plutonium both devices need sofisticated metallurgical expertise.
PAKISTAN has the talent which proved itself working in west to develop new heights in many new technologies. We can do car engine and would do jet engine one day insha Allah.

ANY HOW please DON'T DISGRACE AND UNDERESTIMATE PAKISTAN sitting outside.

Vision become blurred.. about Pakistan sitting outside.. the dear Pakistan.

Add to it we are not poor nation but most looted nation. You believe or not soon money would flow to Pakistan from multiple aspects.

 

[T-123456]

the AESA on this plane is procured from overseas as well

The AESA radar will be indigenous,developed and produced by Aselsan.

 

[posedion]

Yaar How fake is this fifth generation marketing drama that revolves around the non existent stealth nonsense

The lemons list is never ending f117a, and B2 Spirit (Nosense is to have a "stealth" SAM evading bomber such big invisible elephant and add 2 billion a piece tag wow what marketing when 20 million dollar missiles can do the job ) F35, Pakfa, and less known J20 is a good nonsense in making......

Ok one has money to waste fine other wise what waste of resources

And how can one forget the f22 white elephant so called future plane saga

 

[帅的一匹]

Turkey is doing everything on ToT. They signed MoU with Eurojet and some other companies to help them develop their engine. Which means engine will be Turkish not American or European. same goes for most of the other parts and equipment. We are already working we chinese. It's the right time for Pakistan to jump in for the western technology and get the piece of the pie. It will tremendously help PAC in improving their engineering capabilities. Sitting around and just waiting for Chinese to improve their unproven tech and than buying it is totally a foolish idea. It will do no good in the development of our engineer and scientist.

They won't get the core tech of most advanced engine forever.

For developing engine you need market and economy of scale, only permanent five can do it.

If a country wanna be a fellow buddy of a giant, fore example Turkey with USA. It won't be a big problem to get advanced engine, but will not be able to design a advanced engine. For developing a engine, you need very strong industrial ability and millions of potent engineers. China is still progressing to its goal of fully self reliance in fighter engine, next to civilian aircraft engine. If you can grab profit from civilian market, you will have more fund to develop advanced fighter engine. For pakiStan，I think now better concentrate on Jf17 project and get fully knowledge of this aircraft. Before run, you need to walk. Hope all the best to PAF.

 

[Sipahi]

They won't get the core tech of most advanced engine forever.

For developing engine you need market and economy of scale, only permanent five can do it.

If a country wanna be a fellow buddy of a giant, fore example Turkey with USA. It won't be a big problem to get advanced engine, but will not be able to design a advanced engine. For developing a engine, you need very strong industrial ability and millions of potent engineers. China is still progressing to its goal of fully self reliance in fighter engine, next to civilian aircraft engine. If you can grab profit from civilian market, you will have more fund to develop advanced fighter engine. For pakiStan，I think now better concentrate on Jf17 project and get fully knowledge of this aircraft. Before run, you need to walk. Hope all the best to PAF.

Sometimes you gotta run before you can walk - Iron Man

 

[MastanKhan]

MastanKhan for correction
Mercedes-Benz g7tronic and manual 6 speed 4wd 7tronic all are made in house NOT BY ANY USA manufacturer
BMW 8 tronic is ZF made transmission a vw group manufacturer.
In past when Chrysler Daimler was a joint even then Chrysler used Bens parts not voice versa.

In jet engine very sofisticated metallurgy is required for engine blades to withstand very high temperature and pressure that is the key point where China had problems
BUT
Uranium and plutonium both devices need sofisticated metallurgical expertise.
PAKISTAN has the talent which proved itself working in west to develop new heights in many new technologies. We can do car engine and would do jet engine one day insha Allah.

ANY HOW please DON'T DISGRACE AND UNDERESTIMATE PAKISTAN sitting outside.

Vision become blurred.. about Pakistan sitting outside.. the dear Pakistan.

Add to it we are not poor nation but most looted nation. You believe or not soon money would flow to Pakistan from multiple aspects.

Hi,

That post was from 2008----and talked about the past--. I think my dealer chrysler rep knows a little bit more than you would unless you work for mercedes or chrysler.

The comment about " disgrace and underestimate " is not very intelligent.

No--the vision gets clear when you are outside of pakistan----and that is for any citizen of any country when they move out of their countries---then they understand the true worth---.

Can do and are doing are two different things---. Work within your means and progress---and there is success----talked loud and brag---gets you nowhere.

They won't get the core tech of most advanced engine forever.

For developing engine you need market and economy of scale, only permanent five can do it.

If a country wanna be a fellow buddy of a giant, fore example Turkey with USA. It won't be a big problem to get advanced engine, but will not be able to design a advanced engine. For developing a engine, you need very strong industrial ability and millions of potent engineers. China is still progressing to its goal of fully self reliance in fighter engine, next to civilian aircraft engine. If you can grab profit from civilian market, you will have more fund to develop advanced fighter engine. For pakiStan，I think now better concentrate on Jf17 project and get fully knowledge of this aircraft. Before run, you need to walk. Hope all the best to PAF.

Hi,

Pakistanis think that manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine is something ordinary.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

That post was from 2008----and talked about the past--. I think my dealer chrysler rep knows a little bit more than you would unless you work for mercedes or chrysler.

The comment about " disgrace and underestimate " is not very intelligent.

No--the vision gets clear when you are outside of pakistan----and that is for any citizen of any country when they move out of their countries---then they understand the true worth---.

Can do and are doing are two different things---. Work within your means and progress---and there is success----talked loud and brag---gets you nowhere.



Hi,

Pakistanis think that manufacturing a fighter aircraft engine is something ordinary.

He is right about the transmission.

 

[cabatli_53]

If you do a bit or research you will find out that any such Turkish program is going to have significant input from other western countries/companies including but not limited to engine from the US(P&W or GE) or Eurojet, other input from SAAB(Sweden) and BAE(UK) and it would not be a surprise if the AESA on this plane is procured from overseas as well. While one would want to advance local industry producing radars; if a cheaper and better offer of AESA is made from overseas I dont see why that would not be integrated.

SO, this is not a viable solution to PAFs 5th gen fighter requirement in the future. A plane that relies so much on input from countries that have previously repeatedly refused to sell defence equipment to Pakistan should be a BIG HIGH-FLYING RED FLAG if we are to learn anything form the 90s fiasco(due to which we are still operating Mig-21 variants with no BVR capability).

I am pretty sure someone will bring this up again in a few days/weeks.

-AESA radar will be one of the most advanced one thanks to Turkey's Gallium Nitride based high capable, heat resistant T/R module technologies. Turkey is also rare state which is able to develop own mast APAR radar for own destroyer program. The modified variant of this APAR radar will be used for Long Altitude SAM program as well.

-Aselsan is a leading electronic/avionic/electronic warfare modules production institute of the World. Aselsan chip designs developed for state of art avionic and aerospace Chip designs got the best prizes ahead of many Israeli, USA and European institutes.

The Technology Leadership Awards 2015: Recognizing excellence in PCB design

• 1st place: BAE Systems Rochester (UK)
• 2nd place: ASELSAN MGEO - Ankara

In 2012 Aselsan won first place, outing Israels ELBIT to second place

http://www.aselsan.com.tr/tr-tr/bas...r/ASELSANaElektronikTasarimOdulu20160128.aspx


- Aselsan electronic warfare self protection systems for aerial platforms are advanced enough to protect every type of aerial vehicles from helicopters to aircrafts. Aselsan has one of the biggest radar and electronic warfare microwave modules production facility in Europe.

-Turkey's electro-optic systems and thermal technologies reached Quantum Well Infrared photo detector levels that Five or Six states have ability of production QWIP detectors in World. Aselsan Thermal sights on tanks and aircrafts offers one of the best resolution.

AselPod (IR Survaillance)
MehPod (EW)
TacSarPod (Radar surveillance)

- No need to mention the quality and precision of AG munitions Turkish institutes develop.

-There are two strategic Air to Air missile project proceeding simultaneously.

Sahin Short range IIR guided missile (Trial phase)
Goktuğ Long range Multi-guided BVR missile ( Development is proceeding)

Sahin

Goktuğ equivalent domestic missile offered to Poland (First missile from Left)

Turkey just needs a stealth aerodynamic fuselage and It is BAE that Turkey benefits from experiences.

 

[araz]

MastanKhan for correction
Mercedes-Benz g7tronic and manual 6 speed 4wd 7tronic all are made in house NOT BY ANY USA manufacturer
BMW 8 tronic is ZF made transmission a vw group manufacturer.
In past when Chrysler Daimler was a joint even then Chrysler used Bens parts not voice versa.

In jet engine very sofisticated metallurgy is required for engine blades to withstand very high temperature and pressure that is the key point where China had problems
BUT
Uranium and plutonium both devices need sofisticated metallurgical expertise.
PAKISTAN has the talent which proved itself working in west to develop new heights in many new technologies. We can do car engine and would do jet engine one day insha Allah.

ANY HOW please DON'T DISGRACE AND UNDERESTIMATE PAKISTAN sitting outside.

Vision become blurred.. about Pakistan sitting outside.. the dear Pakistan.

Add to it we are not poor nation but most looted nation. You believe or not soon money would flow to Pakistan from multiple aspects.

Jet engine technology is the golden goose of the aviation indusrry. It is technology available to only 4-5 countries and no one is going to hand it to anyone TOT or no TOT. Research into metallurgy for this could set you back 20-30 0billion dollars over 10 yrs without any success if not more. We dont have elctricity and the turbines for electricity generation are bought from outside. To be very honest there are better ways of spending that money for better outcome. Like electricity generation,solar farms,better water management so that the agriculture runs more productively and some more of the 80 % of our people who currently are deprived, get clean drinkable water. We need desalination plants for the coastal areas and if we can get those there may well be a bit more greenery on our coasts. So in short I would not waste my nation's money on such a project at this time. Just a few thoughts . Agreement or disagreement are different matters.
A

 

[batmannow]

Jet engine technology is the golden goose of the aviation indusrry. It is technology available to only 4-5 countries and no one is going to hand it to anyone TOT or no TOT. Research into metallurgy for this could set you back 20-30 0billion dollars over 10 yrs without any success if not more. We dont have elctricity and the turbines for electricity generation are bought from outside. To be very honest there are better ways of spending that money for better outcome. Like electricity generation,solar farms,better water management so that the agriculture runs more productively and some more of the 80 % of our people who currently are deprived, get clean drinkable water. We need desalination plants for the coastal areas and if we can get those there may well be a bit more greenery on our coasts. So in short I would not waste my nation's money on such a project at this time. Just a few thoughts . Agreement or disagreement are different matters.
A

No one will be handing that 5th generation tech to others ?
I think , they will do everything & anything for their national interests ?
Once India gets , its fifth generation fighter , I'm million % positive , China will offer Pakistan with its , J*20s or J*31s ?
Why ?
Before India even , think to match China , they should think & clear the threat , which can hit them fast ?

 

[mustafa erkan]

They won't get the core tech of most advanced engine forever.

Do you know anything what we dont know?
If we were thinking like you we couldnt do what we do nowadays.
Too many peoples talks about turkish products but it isn't important what they say.We have tanks,attack helicopters,corvettes,missiles,radars,IFV and others.
Turkey choose to make products with foreign engines then try to replace with turkish ones.Also on other foreign components, we are replacing them too with turkish mades when indigenous ones are devoleped .Our indigenous component developments go on par with product developments.For example pilots using foreign helmets now later will use avcı helmets.We didnt wait for avcı to use t129.
We are tyrying to make critical components turkish.We can use foreign components which are not critical.
We can make fighter with foreign engine ı dont care about it.The most important tthing for me is if it is caple to take down Su series,pak-fa or F-22

 

[帅的一匹]

To produce a decent and reliable engine is not easy, we know how difficult it is. If you wanna be super power, you need to count on your self. Turkey is good at some area, but It lacks the powerful industrial bases that support it to be super power. For me turkey is more like a regional power, but I'm sorry China's goal is to be global super power.

 

[mustafa erkan]

For me turkey is more like a regional power, but I'm sorry China's goal is to be global super power.

Right.I can also add that we dont have enough population to be a global power but it is not related with hi-tech engines.We have just produced jet tirbunes' crystal blades yet and working on other parts.
I prefer f-16 with much capable radar and firing long range AA misiles as a stop-gap until TF-X becomes ready.At Syrian conflict we lacked at air defence.If we had a jet( number is not important)firing long range AA misile against su-34e we can easily break Russians air superority.