Pak visit for specific, narrow purpose: US Dy Secy of State

[Jungibaaz]

Received by a Director? That protocol?

An audience with just about anyone apart from IK. She also met the COAS.

 

[Dalit]

It doesn't matter at all. Would you plz come out of that tunnel vision and try to observe all that in broader prospective. As test case see how Turkey sustained and prosper as a EU associate and NATO member despite all the hatred of other member nations towards it. And still successfully continues to develop itself even stronger. Pakistan should damn care who is doing what in our neighborhood. Just entirely focus upon its national interest and for God's sake just for once keep national interest Supreme and above your own pathetic short term personal gains.

We are not Turkey. Pakistan has better choices. Pakistan has already made its intentions crystal clear. Regional connectivity comes first.

When the Americans request Pakistan to ditch China the answer will always be an emphatic NO. That is not my personal agenda.

As of now, a global power like US has not to even shot a single bullet to crumble the Pakistan into dark ditches of poverty and hunger. A country drowned in debts can't be independent anyhow. We have served them well since the inception of Pakistan and would never dare to get against them in open conflict for the foreseeable future.

Don't overestimate yourself. Pakistan defeated this and that single handedly. Lol. Pakistan can't even feed and give health care and education to its population by its own.

US officials have the habit of always blaming others and over exaggerating the potential threats to maintain a steady supply of $$$ into its defense industrial complex. Maybe you have some sort of memory loss that you forgot that Pakistan gave them their own airbases to fly drones kill Pakistani people and their agents roaming all the major cities of Pakistan, killing anyone with complete impunity.

They demonize Pakistan so that in the longer run they may cut Pakistani CSF funding but still using Pakistan and perhaps in the future slap sanctions upon Pakistan based upon the same narrative they created.

Foreign sponsored local terrorists bombed the hell out of our country and plz don't tell me the fairytale strong and sovereign nation stories anymore. They successfully infiltrated SF training camp, air bases, and even GHQ in those attacks. What more you expect from them to happen? Hang all the senior civil/military leadership on D Chowk???

For God's sake have some sanity and reality check in your fanboyism. Indians keep ranting the same sh*t too and see what good it has done to them.

The least efficient way to destroy Pakistan is to defeat it militarily due to its oversized capable nuclear armed military. But there are many easier and non violent ways to bog down and potentially collapse Pakistan. Even Cow du*g eating enemies figured it out somehow but you can't. Pakistan isn't a superpower not even a regional one its just surviving and sustaining its own borders with ever dwindling economic resources to back it up. Decades of sanctioned Iran has similar military budget to ourselves. Thats a real shame and pity.

We have heard this never-ending story before.

1. Pakistan cannot feed its people.
2. Pakistan cannot stand on its own feet.
3. Pakistan cannot survive without help of US almighty.
4. Pakistan has a broken economy and won't survive without US aid/funds.
5. Pakistan has no health care nor education system.

Blah blah blah. Here we are. After defeating the US in our backyard the Americans are still paying desperate visits. It is the Americans who are pleading to Pakistan and not the other way round. It is for everyone to see.

Dude, you are living in a different dimension. It is not what I want or do not want. As if my opinion counts. The Pakistani state has already shown the Americans the mirror. From becoming a nuclear power despite US threats to investing in regional connectivity. Pakistan has already given the Americans the middle finger. All I am saying is that you are dead wrong about everything. The reality is very different to your wishes. The US is frustrated and angry for a reason, but it cannot do anything.

The US plan to promote India as an anti-China force has failed miserably. China is eyeballing India as we speak. Indian soldiers are getting slaughtered with iron rods and China is making a point. What can the Americans do other than watch from a distance? In the process, the Americans expect Pakistan to be their lackey. Won't happen. The Americans backstabbed Pakistan during their 20 year Afghan stint. The Americans have lost a Cold War ally. Whether you like it or not, it is game over for the US. Pakistan is not going to blindly trust the Americans on anything.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Pakistan isn't a superpower not even a regional one its just surviving and sustaining its own borders with ever dwindling economic resources to back it up. Decades of sanctioned Iran has similar military budget to ourselves. Thats a real shame and pity.

Pakistan never advertised itself as a superpower, ever. Rather a country which fended off for itself well within the last 40 years against multiple internal and external threats from the combined West, USSR and India. It was the US lackeys all across the elite in Pakistan that got us this shitty economy. Anybody can be bought, even Generals.

There were a few missteps which resulted in a precarious security situation but saner heads prevailed and we defeated the scourge of TTP. All that remains is a mass purge of traitorous scum within the halls of power.

Then again, Pakistan doesn't intend to be part of bloc politics. Alignment with China is purely economical (the E within CPEC stands for "Economic" if the West hasn't got that memo yet. If the US believes we're gonna ditch China because they have a better offer, well I've got a bridge that I can sell you.

 

[araz]

She was reading a script on a Teleprompter like the US leaders do often talking about issues or nations they barely know. However, the message was powerful yet without the honesty behind it it seems. But the fact remains, the US is providing vaccination, and all human support in all crises when Pakistan is in one. Similarly, it's also a fact that the US is the LARGEST trade partner of Pakistan and this fact alone can't be considered lightly. The US allowed Pakistani products access to it's markets. Pakistan needs an active foreign policy to do damage control and better the relations. Polished civilians in ties and blue suits please!! Ex-generals, etc, no matter how educated and sharp, can't and haven't been able to cut it. Civilians in dark blue suits and red ties!!

I agree to the US help bit of your post. Even during the big Earthquake they helped out. However that does not change that the US policies towards the region have been devoid of persistent direction and change like the winds do. It is this factor alone which makes it an unreliable friend and ally. I am certain part of the problem has also been Pakland's divergent interests, and its inability to promote its narrative clearly and consistently from the 2000s to the 2018. Participation in tje Afghqn war was a bad move and our impartiality took a big hit. However, we are now on a route with a consistent narrative and policy. The problem now is the US and Paklands interests fall on different sides. The US offensive against China will bring untold misery to the region and needs to be opposed. Paklands has invested too much in developing this relationship to let it go now. We also find our interests coinciding with the regional powers like Russia and China. This will bri g us at odds with the US. The name of the game remains projection of our narrative and trying and enhancing our trade relationship without asking for more military aid/armaments from the US. IF this works/we will have a civil mutually beneficial relationship with the US. Whereas the US will push Pakistan towards denouncing its support for China, PROVIDED we keep harping the same tune in US press the US might find it difficult to sanction us again. I do not think thqt unlike the 90s these sanctions will be useful and Pakistan of this age is a lot more secure on account of the military technological developments in the region which will keep our defences secure. There maybe underhanded tactics used like inciting violence and political destabilization but frankly I hope the US will realize the dangers involved in destabilizing Pakistan. I can only hope better sense will prevail on both sides. Currently the narrative game lies clearly in Pakistan's favour.
A

 

[araz]

US has lost in middle east too. They are slowly rolling back their military role from the gulf too. China has now become am emerging economic superpower having the most important and strong supply chain globally and a massive population and one of the biggest market and as well as the biggest manufacturing hub in the world.

China is the biggest client of hydrocarbons nowadays. They are the biggest automotive market for Japanese, European as well as some US companies as well.

The only reason why US Dollar haven't already collapsed yet is the economies of the 2 superpowers are extensively integrated into each other and China doesn't see any advantage in pulling down the US Dollar. But it may change on foreseeable future when most of the BRI projects reach their maturity and the markets of the nearby Asian and African developing economies reach to a certain extent that US and EU markets become completely redundant for the Chinese industry.

US is rapidly loosing the game of influence and economy against China and has gotten desperate in recent years to maintain the present state. China on the other hand doesnt have to take any drastic steps to prevail in the end, all they need is to hold the line long enough that US and it's allies are consumed within their own desperation of influence.

The truth is, today no one likes the US or considers it as a worthy ally but rather they only see US as money printing press and a good weapons dealer. Not a single country in South East Asia has faith in US commitments to them. South Koreans openly acknowledge those insecurities too. Taiwan is a lost cause, Japanese only interested in US military tech and selling their products in US. Philippines, Indonesia and New Zealand can't afford to anger China so is the case with Australia who has recently started to feel the effects of Chinese anger.
Apart from the colonial cousins namely the five eyes no one is really interested in US affairs anymore. The only non-English non-caucasian person who fancies to be a strategic partner to dying US Superpower is the "Modi jee"

I will only respknd to the alleged alliance of US with India. India has no appetite for taking on China. They will be mauled badly so they wont take on an open aggressive stance against China. What Modi/Indian policy makers want is to increase their influence in US to influence its policies and:
A. Use it to make gains against the nations in the region.
B. Gain maximum financiql gains out of the situation by imposing its economic foot print over the US and EU.
THE INDIANS will continue to support the US in this venture as long as its 2 primary goals are achieved. But when it comes to actual warfare, it will back out. The US possibly knows this and its newest alliance seems to take that into consideration. However what IndIa will do is negotiate the best financial deal out of this whole ruccus, cajole US into kicking China out of the markets under its influenceso it can take over the financial/ trade roles. The recent spat between US and India over taking a role in Afghanistan has proven to the US the futility of using India as a man power supply source for civilian and beaurocracy control. To what extent US and India can achieve their respective aims remains to be seen. US has a history of having a transactional relationship with its allies and its interests come above all else. How India can maneouvre through this quagmire to make political/economic gains is what needs to be looked at and studied.
A

 

[DJ_Viper]

I agree to the US help bit of your post. Even during the big Earthquake they helped out. However that does not change that the US policies towards the region have been devoid of persistent direction and change like the winds do. It is this factor alone which makes it an unreliable friend and ally. I am certain part of the problem has also been Pakland's divergent interests, and its inability to promote its narrative clearly and consistently from the 2000s to the 2018. Participation in tje Afghqn war was a bad move and our impartiality took a big hit. However, we are now on a route with a consistent narrative and policy. The problem now is the US and Paklands interests fall on different sides. The US offensive against China will bring untold misery to the region and needs to be opposed. Paklands has invested too much in developing this relationship to let it go now. We also find our interests coinciding with the regional powers like Russia and China. This will bri g us at odds with the US. The name of the game remains projection of our narrative and trying and enhancing our trade relationship without asking for more military aid/armaments from the US. IF this works/we will have a civil mutually beneficial relationship with the US. Whereas the US will push Pakistan towards denouncing its support for China, PROVIDED we keep harping the same tune in US press the US might find it difficult to sanction us again. I do not think thqt unlike the 90s these sanctions will be useful and Pakistan of this age is a lot more secure on account of the military technological developments in the region which will keep our defences secure. There maybe underhanded tactics used like inciting violence and political destabilization but frankly I hope the US will realize the dangers involved in destabilizing Pakistan. I can only hope better sense will prevail on both sides. Currently the narrative game lies clearly in Pakistan's favour.
A

A few of your points are the most critical. A civil relationship is the need of the hour between Pakistan and the US. There is no if or butt there. If India can buy S-300 and S-400 and still receive the top line US equipment and no sanctions, I think Pakistan should build a similar relationship also based on civilian business and trade. Your textile and IT sector, if promoted with hard work can bear fruit alone. Just like the Pakistan's relationship with the US, the Pakistanis also think just like that, a conflict oriented relationship with "Yes we are friends" or "No, we are enemies". There is no middle ground.

Sadly, these forums are a few places where outsiders can openly see a nation's attitude towards the other. Americans coming to this forum only see the hateful part. When that shouldn't be the case. The US administration and US public are two different things.

 

[araz]

Reject her visa at the airport, strip search her, and put this fucking american cunt back on the next flight.

Politics do not allow you the luxury of doing what you feel. Irrespective she remains an official of an important state. Our interests currently do no coincide but it does not mean we let go of civility. She was received appropriately. She went to see SMQ and the army chief who received her. Optics need to be maintained irrepective of what people feel. However the reception was civil yet cold, she delivered her message and we have reiterated our stance. Somewhere along the line we may reach consensus over Afghanistan and a stabilized Afghanistan frees up Pakistan of a lot of its worries. It remains important for both countries to remain engaged in aconstructive dialogue even though it might not be about Pakistan directly. In the coming days the US will need Pakistan more than Pakistan needing the US. However, as long as we look after our national interests and paint a cohesive well researched and articulated narrative we should get the message across.
A

 

[araz]

A few of your points are the most critical. A civil relationship is the need of the hour between Pakistan and the US. There is no if or butt there. If India can buy S-300 and S-400 and still receive the top line US equipment and no sanctions, I think Pakistan should build a similar relationship also based on civilian business and trade. Your textile and IT sector, if promoted with hard work can bear fruit alone. Just like the Pakistan's relationship with the US, the Pakistanis also think just like that, a conflict oriented relationship with "Yes we are friends" or "No, we are enemies". There is no middle ground.

Sadly, these forums are a few places where outsiders can openly see a nation's attitude towards the other. Americans coming to this forum only see the hateful part. When that shouldn't be the case. The US administration and US public are two different things.

I have been to the US in 2007. I was surprised by how little the general populace know about the rest of the world. Most news are local or state based. The state therefore retains the power to feed the public whatever it wants. No other country has so many houses displaying the national flag. This makes me realize the susceptibility of the public in accepting the national narrative. I do not think that such a public will see reason as it does not hear a counternarrative. So I would politely disagree with you
When you go to national fora you often hear diverse views. The Pakistani Psyche remains that of an asian mindset which the West does not understand. We hold friendship above everything. However the US/western mindset is interest based and alliance/divergence depend on how your interests are met. Because you dont see a counternarrative you cannot see the other side of the coin and lack of understanding of cultural nuances leeds you to infer
Incorrectly. Pakistan has helped the US at critical junctures and still been sanctioned repeatedly. The US has left us in the lurch so many times it is incredible that the two governments even talk. So you are essentially reaping what you have sowed. Pakistanis see international events in the light of our adversity with India. Even when we were allies the US sanctioned us. The F86, F104s and F16s are the symbol of our relationship not the vaccines that get sent. If you see that perspective you will realize why Pakistan feels let down. Most Pakistani US alliances have taken place during the reign of the army. The one deal which the US made with Pakistani political setup for F16s went sour as you sanctioned us. Is it any surprise you are mistrusted and even hated by the public? The US/West judges through its very myopic vision and expects nations to respond as it expects them to repond without any understanding of local nuances. Why then do you get surprised when you are mistrusted.
A

 

[Vapnope]

Some people blame Pakistan for the current state of relations without realizing that it was US who actually backstabbed Pakistan first in 1971. The secret papers have every details on on how they effectively limited Pakistan so that India can achieve her targets despite Pakistan asking for US help in critical matters.

I do not advocate hostility with US however this is a reality that our interests cannot align for foreseeable future and our arch rival is their new ally now which will make us bitter towards US in near future. The best course of action is to end the reliance on US for critical issues and build from there.

Unfortunately, we have shortsighted people in our ranks who continue to dig deeper in US net for their own personal gains.

 

[araz]

First I never talked about wot in reference to IK, as he is irrelevant to Wot time-line. As far as foreign policy goes, there isn't any visible difference between NS, Zardari, IK apart from some well worded heart warming but equally useless speeches of IK. Foreign relations aren't merely a debate or speech competition to win.

I just pointed out the sheer incompetence and rampant corruption of IK Govt.

Well you missed the first part. Gen. Musharraf was the pioneer of this mess. NS and Zardari just extended it to new horizon to gain the US support for their personal gains.

IK! Even the father of IK wouldn't have the guts to stand against US of 2001. Even today Pakistan can barely speak in front of US which purely due to the sheer might of China behind it due to Cold War 2.0

Foreign relations as of right now are beyond the pay grade of any of the Pakistani decision makers either IK or COAS alike. Stakes are really high for regional and global powers, India has massively outsmarted us on foreign relations, business and money talks aloud which Pakistan doesn't have any of them. Along with potentially be the next battleground of the cold war 2.0 Pakistan rarely have any options left to play diplomatic games for long without any geo-economic muscle to flex at all.

Even the Pakistan's comprehensive military cooperation with the Gulf is fading away in contrast to Indian Business investments and massive skilled manpower influx there. That's why Islamic bradr mumalik aren't that much bradr to us right now.

I think you are not seeing the situation correctly. The incompetence/corruption has not been brought in by IK but has been a part of Pak social build up f9r 70 odd years . We think more of ouper ki kamai than anything else. The concept of a Govt official is one who does katchairi in the office, does the work for which he either has sifarish, a danda from a senior official, or gets the help of Quaid e Azam. I have now bèen out of Pakistan for 30 years. In my times nothing was ever done without these three supporting factors. If I remember IK was not on the political scene then.
You are expecting one man to change the national work practice over night while he has people who are both inexperienced and also borrowed (prohlematic) and alliances with their own agendas. I have seen the work of PPP in Sindh when I was there in the 70/80s. Tell me it was not corrupt and it will either tell me you were not around in those times or you are biased.
I fully agree things are still not ideal but this nation will take decades to come out of its bad habits. To expect anything else is simply ex0ecting too much.
A

 

[The Terminator]

We are not Turkey. Pakistan has better choices. Pakistan has already made its intentions crystal clear. Regional connectivity comes first.

When the Americans request Pakistan to ditch China the answer will always be an emphatic NO. That is not my personal agenda.


We have heard this never-ending story before.

1. Pakistan cannot feed its people.
2. Pakistan cannot stand on its own feet.
3. Pakistan cannot survive without help of US almighty.
4. Pakistan has a broken economy and won't survive without US aid/funds.
5. Pakistan has no health care nor education system.

Blah blah blah. Here we are. After defeating the US in our backyard the Americans are still paying desperate visits. It is the Americans who are pleading to Pakistan and not the other way round. It is for everyone to see.

Dude, you are living in a different dimension. It is not what I want or do not want. As if my opinion counts. The Pakistani state has already shown the Americans the mirror. From becoming a nuclear power despite US threats to investing in regional connectivity. Pakistan has already given the Americans the middle finger. All I am saying is that you are dead wrong about everything. The reality is very different to your wishes. The US is frustrated and angry for a reason, but it cannot do anything.

The US plan to promote India as an anti-China force has failed miserably. China is eyeballing India as we speak. Indian soldiers are getting slaughtered with iron rods and China is making a point. What can the Americans do other than watch from a distance? In the process, the Americans expect Pakistan to be their lackey. Won't happen. The Americans backstabbed Pakistan during their 20 year Afghan stint. The Americans have lost a Cold War ally. Whether you like it or not, it is game over for the US. Pakistan is not going to blindly trust the Americans on anything.

Well you started it accurately all of these rants were blah blah blah blah


"America pleading to Pakistan" "Became nuclear power despite US threats" "Pakistan has given Middle finger to US" "it is game over for US"

Do you really know what are you talking about? You are treating a Superpower like Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Somalia kind of trash! It's hilarious.

You have given middle finger to US but still begs money from its controlled IMF, World Bank and its allies to pay salaries to your employees. Is it really a good way to "give middle finger" to someone dude.

Game over for US. US is dead but still Pakistani Govt is always ready to lick stinking US dollars to buy medicine, oil, machinery, food, debt servicing, and to pay for the smart phone/computer you are using to bash the US dollar currency printer.

Anyone who has studied a bit history knows that US knew about Pakistan's Nuclear program and its weird supply chain network long ago. Even India was constantly crying to US about that matter. But US just ignored it due to more pressing issues like cold War with Soviets.

You are literally forcing me to say bad thing about my own country which I really don't wanna say. You just keep living inside fool's paradise where you are the greatest. Our beloved country couldn't ever be self sufficient due to people having of fake sense of superiority like you. China and Russia are fools in your eyes that despite being arch rivals they have maintained very good business and trade ties with the west and keeping all these egoistic bullshits away.

Even still Pakistan's vital military assets are of US origin as well. When a country can't produce stuff for itself or can't fund its own expenses, it doesn't have any right for chest thumping unnecessarily. We can't even mine our own resources.

Yes you said well Pakistan is not Turkey and can never reach even the level of Turkey with this stone age mentality.

 

[The Terminator]

I think you are not seeing the situation correctly. The incompetence/corruption has not been brought in by IK but has been a part of Pak social build up f9r 70 odd years . We think more of ouper ki kamai than anything else. The concept of a Govt official is one who does katchairi in the office, does the work for which he either has sifarish, a danda from a senior official, or gets the help of Quaid e Azam. I have now bèen out of Pakistan for 30 years. In my times nothing was ever done without these three supporting factors. If I remember IK was not on the political scene then.
You are expecting one man to change the national work practice over night while he has people who are both inexperienced and also borrowed (prohlematic) and alliances with their own agendas. I have seen the work of PPP in Sindh when I was there in the 70/80s. Tell me it was not corrupt and it will either tell me you were not around in those times or you are biased.
I fully agree things are still not ideal but this nation will take decades to come out of its bad habits. To expect anything else is simply ex0ecting too much.
A

Agreed. I am not biased towards anyone. I just said that IK Govt is fundamentally the same as the previous ones and utterly failed to deliver its promise of change and accountability. The previous ones were corrupt and the new setup isn't that much different either.

Govt officials are also corrupt and the present Govt has done nothing to improve their quality of service, merit or accountability.


The presence of evil isn't as much dangerous than the presence of evil plus the huge advertisement of evil for everyone to watch. It overall impacts the whole community very negatively. IK has done nothing but advertising the old evil corruption and eventually the corrupts are now get more glorified and idealized as untouchable in the society whatsoever. That's emboldened the corrupts and made them somewhat heros and a success story.

That has caused unrest amongst the concerned public and corrupts as a role model for newer generations to follow as a path to guaranteed success. That's the real issue.

On the contrary even in the presence of evil when the perception of writ of the Govt and rule of law is visibly created and well established, it alone acts as a powerful deterrent to the evil and creates fear amongst the culprits or potential soon to be culprits.

 

[The Terminator]

I will only respknd to the alleged alliance of US with India. India has no appetite for taking on China. They will be mauled badly so they wont take on an open aggressive stance against China. What Modi/Indian policy makers want is to increase their influence in US to influence its policies and:
A. Use it to make gains against the nations in the region.
B. Gain maximum financiql gains out of the situation by imposing its economic foot print over the US and EU.
THE INDIANS will continue to support the US in this venture as long as its 2 primary goals are achieved. But when it comes to actual warfare, it will back out. The US possibly knows this and its newest alliance seems to take that into consideration. However what IndIa will do is negotiate the best financial deal out of this whole ruccus, cajole US into kicking China out of the markets under its influenceso it can take over the financial/ trade roles. The recent spat between US and India over taking a role in Afghanistan has proven to the US the futility of using India as a man power supply source for civilian and beaurocracy control. To what extent US and India can achieve their respective aims remains to be seen. US has a history of having a transactional relationship with its allies and its interests come above all else. How India can maneouvre through this quagmire to make political/economic gains is what needs to be looked at and studied.
A

The conflict has already been sparked between Indian and China regarding their disputed territories. China for the past decade had been trying to establish close friendly ties with India for regional interconnectivity and prosperity but India straightforwardly refused to cooperate with them and openly joined US to counter and contain China. The current Chinese regime is very much clear about the Indian stance and now have started to deal India with iron hands and iron rods too . India refused carrot now they are beaten up by spiked sticks.

Strategically its far much easier for China to forcefully resolve its issues with India and Taiwan as compared to multilateral issue of South China sea claims. And as far as I know, in the longer run it would be in the best interest of US that China and India worn down each other as much as possible. And obviously US would keep supplying the underdog for prolonging the conflict as much as possible.

US working class hate indians way more than the Chinese. Because unlike Chinese most Indians are literate in English and can easily integrate into US environment and they have started to even steal the high end lucrative jobs from the Goras. So goving India a lot more share in business, trade or lucrative employments it would the people of US who would be on the receiving end of this Saga.