Pak to counter India by inducting 500 BVR missiles

[Contrarian]

And just how did you arrive at that conclusion?

You seem to be pretty certain of the capabilities of both of them. Please compare and contrast the performance of both of them and add to my knowledge.

I wont. But Neo might, thus i referred him.

 

[blain2]

Their electronics are dubious and their proclaimed indigenous engines have been made with direct Russian involvement.

This is a massive generalization. Yes some of their products are dubious, however many others are not. The fact of the matter is that in Asia, after Russia, Chinese are the biggest arms exporters. In the past decade, they have realized that they need to invest more on the high-tech side, it will not happen overnight but just based on the PAF experience, the quality of hardware has definitely undergone a generational change. Avionics are no different. On the commercial side they are producing many multi-purpose components for US and European companies and the technology is bleeding into their weapons program. Secondly, on the issue of FC-20, Pakistan will probably not go with something that is entirely Chinese just to mature the platform and get it into service with already well developed Western technology. So a lot of the above problems may not apply to the PAF plans.

Now i seriously doubt their claims. In either case, the benefit of customizing a plane is only when you are dissatisfied with the product-which you would be with Chinese planes.

PAF has never bought an aircraft that has not undergone some customization. I see no exception to the case in the future either.

With US plane, like the blk 52, you already get more than what you can possibly procure, barring things like AESA(which again, PAF will obtain in the future from US itself).

Yes but what we get from the Chinese is cheaper and fairly elaborate too. Chinese are producing fairly good quality PGMs and pods which would be harder to get from the US and European sources. The jury is out on AESA, Chinese are working on it as are the US/Western companies on products such as Sabre (AESA for Viper). Who knows where we will end up on the AESA front..

Case in point-India modified the Su-30K to Su-30MKI not because it fancied doing so, but because of lack of capabilities. Had the product been as good as the MKI or if it even had an upgrade path designed by Russians which would have incorporated new features steadily, India would not have gone to third parties.

I agree. See my earlier point above.

The way i see things-going for Chinese products has a lot to do with soft loans or friendship prices and no fear of sanctions-but as with everything you have to compromise-on the equipment level.

Initially it was all about cheap quantity. Now in different products, the quality is also coming up. This is owing to China's own indigenous requirements.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Their electronics are dubious

Think again; strip apart the very computer you are working on; theres a made in china stamp on every part you pick up; yes; even the little capacitors and resistors the mainboard is made off

Do not underestimate the chinese electronics industry; the whole computing industry gets its stuff manufactured in china (intel, hp, dell, what and what not) because its a whole lot cheaper to get it done anywhere else

The whole world is running now on chinese electronics; give credit where it is due...

 

[Contrarian]

Their exports are not of the same type of equipment that for example US or Russia sells. Some of their planes are indeed sold, but to countries who dont have an option and/or the money. Their exports are also coupled with key agreements on loans, partnerships, leases, etc, etc. Its not exactly the strength of their technology on which they are selling the products.

That was the case. None of the recent deals with China have been on friendship rates. They are investing in technology and are asking a decent price for it. What you say above btw applies to whole of the defence industry. Massive offsets are offered as a standard to sweeten the deal as well as on massively extended financing. No different than China. Only the clientele is different because China does not give two hoots about Western morality and embargoes.

Surely, i am not denying that their equipments are improving, i am saying that they are still behind Russia in most key fields, let alone western countries.

Let me know when we come to the point when Russian or slightly inferior Chinese technology is no longer being considered by either India or Pakistan. There is a lot of technology that is still appropriate for use in the Indo-pak context.

PAF has done so with the F-16's for nuclear delivery capabilities, it has not integrated third party components(major) which requires changes in the mission computers or source codes, or something that changes the flight parameters. However, the changes that you would do for Chinese planes would entail just these.

Yes we have. PAF F-16s were the first non-NATO aircraft to integrate ATLIS pods and LGBs. That required changes in the SMS as well as the mission computer. In the case of Chinese hardware, I am sure of this would be required as well given that Pakistani FC-20s may not have all Chinese equipment.

You can actually get quality PGM's. Even US is willing to sell on this front. Havent JDAM's been sold already?

Right but who wants to pay the US to integrate PGMs/LDPs/FLIRs with Chinese origin JF-17/FC-20s and even more importantly allow the Americans to dictate to us what can and cannot go on these aircraft? They will only relent for the F-16s, not the other hardware.

China is lacking in AESA. They have tried or rather trying to buy the Irbis-E PESA radar from Russia as well. Not talking about PD radars. This when again, Russia has been involved albeit at a much lower scale in their radar programs. In their engine programs Russians have been equal partners for all practical purposes and yet they are still to produce engines that would satisfy customers like PAF.

Yes China is lacking the AESA, however we are in 2009 and Pakistan's induction timeframe is 13-14. Quite a lot can happen until then. On their engine issues, Pakistan would have gone with their engines if they were ready. However that is not to say that their engine quality stinks. We have used their engines on our FT-5s, 6, A-5s, F-7s and have got good use out of them. Maybe they won't be the best but then again, you are also having to live with Russian engines on your frontline MKIs. So all of what you say has to be taken in strides. Chinese may not be producing all of the hardware in the same league as the US and Western countries, however some of it is and much more will be in the future. Additionally, Pakistan has to contend with India, which certainly has a long way to move away from its Soviet/Russian-era techonology and the Chinese hardware is good enough for use against it.

Initially it was all about cheap quantity. Now in different products, the quality is also coming up. This is owing to China's own indigenous requirements.

Yep. But they dont have the pressure to match IAF technologically. PAF does, and thus a difference in haste. People on this forum are attributing heck of a lot to China. The levels they are talking about are atleast 10 years away from China's reach.

Malay,

I beg to differ. The Chinese are spending 3x more than what you are spending on your defence, for upgrade purposes. Their pressure is to match the US and to a lesser degree the Taiwanese capabilities. They are no longer in the business of sending up 2000 F-6s to counter American superiority. They will upgrade and enhance as and when they can. The European defence trade moratorium may be lifted within a year or so and then all bets are off. I believe many Indians here are in a state of denial in terms of Chinese capabilities. Do not be regardless of how much western origin hardware you induct by purchasing, in the long run, their military industrial base will grant them greater dividends. Pakistan is counting on it and we already see quite a bit of good quality hardware coming from them.

Heck if you start saying that the FC-20 would be better than the F-16 blk 52, then it gets too much.

They are developing decent stuff now, but not even close to what is being attributed here.

I do not say one aircraft is better than the others. However by the time the FC-20 appears in the PAF colours, we may have capabilities on the aircraft which will exceed those of the Blk-52. That is just the nature of technology. Blk-52 specs are being decided upon now, FC-20 would be architected over the next few years and newer, more capable technologies would be available on both the Western and Chinese markets.

 

[blain2]

Malay,

My apologies for chopping up the above post. That was not the intention but edited it too quickly instead of posting a reply. Hopefully the discussion will go on.

 

[Contrarian]

Yeah no problems mate. Too tired right now to post a reply. Will do so later.

 

[Contrarian]

Think again; strip apart the very computer you are working on; theres a made in china stamp on every part you pick up; yes; even the little capacitors and resistors the mainboard is made off

Do not underestimate the chinese electronics industry; the whole computing industry gets its stuff manufactured in china (intel, hp, dell, what and what not) because its a whole lot cheaper to get it done anywhere else

The whole world is running now on chinese electronics; give credit where it is due...

Please dont assume us(those who critisize China's technological abilities) to be fools. I am well aware of what China produces, in what quantities and what is China's domestic input in that field.

 

[Arsalan]

whatabout the disscussion about the BVR missiles we are getting!

sir with due respect WE ARE NOT GETTING IT FROM CHINA so lets move back to the topic which appers to be:
Pak to counter India by inducting 500 BVR missiles

i hope you people do not mind and do not take my post as an offense to you!
lets move back tov topic!

 

[Arsalan]

i think we will be getting AIM 120 C5.
any comparison of them with indian missiles!!

regards!

 

[Keysersoze]

i think we will be getting AIM 120 C5.
any comparison of them with indian missiles!!

regards!

Do some research its easy with google or even use the function on the forum. Otherwise we will go through the same discussion Ad neausem

I can't abide laziness

 

[Enigma SIG]

Please dont assume us(those who critisize China's technological abilities) to be fools.

Self assumptions are harmful
Unjustified response to a rather decent comment...

Even if the chinese have little domestic input in the computing industry; it doesnt mean that they aren't learning; they have the technology in their own backyard and only have to build upon other applications of that technology.

Granted china is lacking behind; but they sure arent sitting idle

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

okz so plz tell me that aim-20 aamram can be used with jf-17
jf-17 is cabable of launching those?

 

[IceCold]

So we are getting 500 missiles.....hmmm still 3000 missiles short.

 

[Sunny4pak]

what about Babur or i think RAAD on JF 17

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Pakistan should also dialogue to purchase R-77M1: 175 km (108.7MI) from russia. Its good time because india is also going to purchase from other countries rather than russia.