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Pak rebuffs US on Haqqani network crackdown

In fact US could not get strategic victory in Afghanistan now wanted just to pressurise Pakistan to show world nations that Pakistan is cause of US failure.

Haqqani ,Bhadar or Hikmatyar are controlling their fighters in their allocated provinces , drones success rate is very low , mostly targeting inocient civilians.

Either US defeat Talaban or quite from Afghanistan in next 18 months.

I am skeptic about Gul Bahadur now.

As far as Haqqani is concerned by killing him nothing can be gained unless US eleminates the fighters in Afghanistan which is unlikely to happen.
 
Like it or not. Democracy is going to sustain in Afghanistan. You are going to have India on your right and left. Jihad is out of business.

Jihad will carry on till the judgement day and thats told by Prophet Muhammad PBUH. So if there appear a trillion people or even trillion times trillion and more who say Jihad is out of business, one single Hadees of Prophet Muhammad SAWW is more valuable than that. Just give yourself an opportunity to analyze what Prophet Muhammad SAWW has said and is there a single thing that didn't turn out the way it was foretold? No wonder there is NONE!
 
Ummm I can sense the US and Indians are desperate to open a new theatre of war in Pakistan, the US is hiding its failures in Afghanistan for over 8 years and very little success has been achieved in fact the Taliban have grown stronger and are controlling more territories.

The US is trying to suck Pakistan into thier mess which they have created because they have realised Pakistan Army has done wonders in less than a year.
 
"...Moreover, the Pakistanis do not want to alienate Mr. Haqqani because they consider him an important player in reconciliation efforts that they would like to see get under way in Afghanistan immediately, the officials said.

Because Mr. Haqqani shelters Qaeda leaders and operatives in North Waziristan..."


Now this WOULD BE a source of tension given our feelings about A.Q. and, supposedly, your own expressed and parallel sentiments WRT to the same.

Implicit in this whole argument has been the sanctuary provided these organizations for over eight years. It's an accepted reality even among Pakistanis here and the shift has been notable over the last few weeks.

That establishment of sanctuary wasn't simply for lack of resources but reflects a calculated policy choice by the nat'l security apparatus of Pakistan.

As for Konar and Nuristan, I'm sure that the GoA and its forces will get to those regions if and when. I guarantee that if you can plead lacking adequate means to address the radicalization of your tribal areas between 2002-2006, then so too can the GoA who are a mere shadow of even Pakistani capabilities.

In any case, should the TTP be working closely with their afghan taliban brothers to rain misery on your souls from their own newfound sanctuary, don't say blowback of all this wasn't forewarned repeatedly.

We're heading south to Kandahar and Helmand-damnably close to the Baloch border. Hope to stir up the nests enough to run some HVTs back across your border and justify a PREDATOR strike or two.

If you're not a "banana republic" do something NOW instead of awaiting one more PREDATOR attack-wherever it may be.


If indeed US is looking for a solution then now is not the time to play tough guy with Pakistan...actually it is the worse time to follow this approach.
When Pakistan has suffered most in one year and when its Army has killed most terrorists in one year, it is highly ill advised to try the proverbial stick approach.
That our nation is fighting a bloody battle with terrorists is obvious to all but the most stubborn of fools both inside and outside Pakistan!!!

Give us some space and if truly your aim to fight terrorism then we are doing it and will slowly and surely will have to face all the terrorists since they shall all be denied space and either would have to stop their activities or unite against Pakistan Army. Our operations are not for show, we have lost many fine officers and soldiers who were specialists and had a great service record, we deployed our finest soldiers on ground and shed a lot of blood.
There is a reason our civilians are now paying with their lives...we did a serious unprecedented damage to the terrorists and that is why they had to target more and more soft targets...however the terrorists are clever and use the mistrust between our nations as their best propaganda weapon.

This mistrust is not eliminated when US diplomatic staff run amok and make a mockery of our law enforcement apparatus....i wish i had not seen these baboons near my home in Lahore Cantt where there was a serious confrontation between them and our security force manning a check point, i personally wanted to take the weapon from the security personnel and shoot the SOBs who were refusing to come out of their vehicle...the agencies rushed in and took them into safe custody but that is besides the point.
My point is of attitude, i did not expect this from our allies but have seen it now.
This kind of attitude has really resulted in a growing mistrust as it has been witnessed by all and sundry.
What has the US done in this regards, being a more mature nation fighting for democracy in the world, is this how your people are supposed to behave in an allied country?

To top it all there was the SWA operation, when US forces abandoned their posts adjacent to WA, it was very much seen in a negative light by all concerned in Pakistan and rightly so.
At a time when we launched an attack on one of the toughest terrorist stronghold, our allies deserted their posts...even if the impact would have been 5-10%, there is no denying that the timing of this was very much terrible to say the least.
So when US sees Pakistan take action, instead of increased coordination there was this despite the clear statements by GOP that next operation is in Wazirisitan.
Even if I assume this was preplanned by US then my next question is why would you carry it out when there was clear indication of an offensive by Pakistan Army?
All it did was create a justified confusion...a confusion which created many doubts about what is the commonality?
We heard do more but when we did more, our allies did something else...setting aside operational impact, the move was not at all positive in light of us being allies.

The AQ-TTP nexus is being fought in a most vicious fashion by Pakistan Army....that the TTP is being actively supported by AQ is clearly known to us.
If indeed all these groups are linked together and Haqqani is indeed supporting them, then they shall be taken to task soon because of their mutual support in face of a clean sweep in FATA.
If some groups are not against Pakistan Army and do not join the TTP in the operations, then that means they do not share the same goals and they need to be negotiated with to ensure peace and control of GOP. Negotiation does not mean willful surrender to the whims of some extremists, it means to make a solid arrangement to ensure stability.
Only if negotiations fail and terrorist activity evidence is there, should the Pakistan Army be launched against such groups.

However for now, chest beating is not required and it would be very stupid of our high command to make them all unite instead of eliminating the strongest group and waiting for the right moment to strike any other groups which are currently not helping TTP but are found to be AQ supporters.

Regarding the radicalization, i think the process is in good old third decade since its inception and that is the reason we cannot risk open too many fronts till we dominate the area.
A sweep of FATA as being done now would yield the necessary results regardless of who is supporting whom and any party which does not attack our Army during these operations is the one that can be negotiated with.

Regarding the drones, that shall seal the fate of any partnership we wish to have.
We shall see how strongly our government resists but i am afraid if they are unable to stop it and USA goes down than road then there will be a huge fallout in Pakistan and as a consequence the entire region.
Do not expect the people of Pakistan to sit quietly and take all sorts of nonsense, in face of terrorism we have hardened quite a bit now...

The nation has finally started coming out of the Zia era indoctrination in realizing that these so called fighters are not noble and pristine as they claim to be, we finally have majority of people hating militancy and supporting Army actions against all militants...
And here you guys are threatening us now...not good my friend.

I admire the USA as a country and many of its fine qualities, however the US government is probably making one of the worst decisions in not realizing what damage it shall do by persisting with such an overtly hawkish stance at a time when Pakistan is as anti terrorist as it can get.
I am really saddened by what clearly appears to me a deliberate attempt to make Pakistan do more than what it can handle at a single point in time.
When we have achieved some success, we suddenly are being bombarded with irresponsible statements to make Pakistan look like a fool...this has to stop.
We have matured more in the past 2 years than in 2 decades, Let us breathe as a nation and even if we take a slightly different route, eventually our overt goals will be the same, to eliminate terrorism.
Do not try to choke Pakistan, we shall honestly have no other choice but to come out in the streets if this attitude prevails.

In the end i hope sense prevails and the objective is to combat terrorism...it shall be sad to see otherwise.
 
I am skeptic about Gul Bahadur now.

As far as Haqqani is concerned by killing him nothing can be gained unless US eleminates the fighters in Afghanistan which is unlikely to happen.

You know they(haqqani,gul bahadur) remain neutral during recent waziristan operation againt Hakemu fighters as a result PA got quick victory unexpectedly.

Major factor of Afghan Talaban success against ISAF occupation forces is strategic depth inside Pakistan but it does not mean they controlling our land .

In case of our war with india we had same advantge, in case of Pak-indo war US will never help us and you know what they did during 71 war?
 
If indeed US is looking for a solution then now is not the time to play tough guy with Pakistan...actually it is the worse time to follow this approach.
When Pakistan has suffered most in one year and when its Army has killed most terrorists in one year, it is highly ill advised to try the proverbial stick approach.
That our nation is fighting a bloody battle with terrorists is obvious to all but the most stubborn of fools both inside and outside Pakistan!!!

Give us some space and if truly your aim to fight terrorism then we are doing it and will slowly and surely will have to face all the terrorists since they shall all be denied space and either would have to stop their activities or unite against Pakistan Army. Our operations are not for show, we have lost many fine officers and soldiers who were specialists and had a great service record, we deployed our finest soldiers on ground and shed a lot of blood.
There is a reason our civilians are now paying with their lives...we did a serious unprecedented damage to the terrorists and that is why they had to target more and more soft targets...however the terrorists are clever and use the mistrust between our nations as their best propaganda weapon.

This mistrust is not eliminated when US diplomatic staff run amok and make a mockery of our law enforcement apparatus....i wish i had not seen these baboons near my home in Lahore Cantt where there was a serious confrontation between them and our security force manning a check point, i personally wanted to take the weapon from the security personnel and shoot the SOBs who were refusing to come out of their vehicle...the agencies rushed in and took them into safe custody but that is besides the point.
My point is of attitude, i did not expect this from our allies but have seen it now.
This kind of attitude has really resulted in a growing mistrust as it has been witnessed by all and sundry.
What has the US done in this regards, being a more mature nation fighting for democracy in the world, is this how your people are supposed to behave in an allied country?

To top it all there was the SWA operation, when US forces abandoned their posts adjacent to WA, it was very much seen in a negative light by all concerned in Pakistan and rightly so.
At a time when we launched an attack on one of the toughest terrorist stronghold, our allies deserted their posts...even if the impact would have been 5-10%, there is no denying that the timing of this was very much terrible to say the least.
So when US sees Pakistan take action, instead of increased coordination there was this despite the clear statements by GOP that next operation is in Wazirisitan.
Even if I assume this was preplanned by US then my next question is why would you carry it out when there was clear indication of an offensive by Pakistan Army?
All it did was create a justified confusion...a confusion which created many doubts about what is the commonality?
We heard do more but when we did more, our allies did something else...setting aside operational impact, the move was not at all positive in light of us being allies.

The AQ-TTP nexus is being fought in a most vicious fashion by Pakistan Army....that the TTP is being actively supported by AQ is clearly known to us.
If indeed all these groups are linked together and Haqqani is indeed supporting them, then they shall be taken to task soon because of their mutual support in face of a clean sweep in FATA.
If some groups are not against Pakistan Army and do not join the TTP in the operations, then that means they do not share the same goals and they need to be negotiated with to ensure peace and control of GOP. Negotiation does not mean willful surrender to the whims of some extremists, it means to make a solid arrangement to ensure stability.
Only if negotiations fail and terrorist activity evidence is there, should the Pakistan Army be launched against such groups.

However for now, chest beating is not required and it would be very stupid of our high command to make them all unite instead of eliminating the strongest group and waiting for the right moment to strike any other groups which are currently not helping TTP but are found to be AQ supporters.

Regarding the radicalization, i think the process is in good old third decade since its inception and that is the reason we cannot risk open too many fronts till we dominate the area.
A sweep of FATA as being done now would yield the necessary results regardless of who is supporting whom and any party which does not attack our Army during these operations is the one that can be negotiated with.

Regarding the drones, that shall seal the fate of any partnership we wish to have.
We shall see how strongly our government resists but i am afraid if they are unable to stop it and USA goes down than road then there will be a huge fallout in Pakistan and as a consequence the entire region.
Do not expect the people of Pakistan to sit quietly and take all sorts of nonsense, in face of terrorism we have hardened quite a bit now...

The nation has finally started coming out of the Zia era indoctrination in realizing that these so called fighters are not noble and pristine as they claim to be, we finally have majority of people hating militancy and supporting Army actions against all militants...
And here you guys are threatening us now...not good my friend.

I admire the USA as a country and many of its fine qualities, however the US government is probably making one of the worst decisions in not realizing what damage it shall do by persisting with such an overtly hawkish stance at a time when Pakistan is as anti terrorist as it can get.
I am really saddened by what clearly appears to me a deliberate attempt to make Pakistan do more than what it can handle at a single point in time.
When we have achieved some success, we suddenly are being bombarded with irresponsible statements to make Pakistan look like a fool...this has to stop.
We have matured more in the past 2 years than in 2 decades, Let us breathe as a nation and even if we take a slightly different route, eventually our overt goals will be the same, to eliminate terrorism.
Do not try to choke Pakistan, we shall honestly have no other choice but to come out in the streets if this attitude prevails.

In the end i hope sense prevails and the objective is to combat terrorism...it shall be sad to see otherwise.

You are under estimating uncle sam , remember their role in 1971 war and after Afghan Russian war and their support for Israel against Gazza masacare.

Also dont forget their recent nuke deal with india , what extra ordinery support we got from them for our leading role in WOT ? our Kashmir problem is still unresolved.

Also what you think US dont know about Indian support for TTP and BLA?

US invaded Afghanistan for greater socio economic intrest in region and our enemy number one is their partner in Afghanistan .

Zia era was golden era in which we got nuke and missile capabilities and got top position in Islamic and south asian countries.

He made PA and ISI undefeatable force have now stronge islamic fundamental foundations.
 
"I am really saddened by what clearly appears to me a deliberate attempt to make Pakistan do more than what it can handle at a single point in time."

Your emotions aside, it's not been determined just what, exactly, a great country like Pakistan can actually handle or not. More to the point, All Green, this is no recent phenomena. It's a condition that's nearly eight years old.

That there's nothing recent about this raises the larger question of whether Pakistan EVER intends to address sanctuary. For instance, what precludes your Ministry of the Interior from routinely and constantly issuing proclamations about the illegality of Pakistani citizens taking foreign policy into their own hands? That would make clear the GoP position and serve fair warning to the Bahadurs and Nazirs of your country who emulate these foreigners on your soil.

They matter just as much and, unlike the afghan taliban, are your own citizens. Since when do they have the right to influence national security and foreign policy by virtue of their weapons? So if it's not possible to attack now these groups, it seems reasonable and fair to have expected you to at least issue a big fat cease and desist lest they be attacked in the future.

None of this has occurred and makes me believe that neither Nazir nor Bahadur fear recrimination from your government. Not now nor later nor ever. If they did fear such, why would they placidly continue on their way in the manner they have? Why haven't they tossed their cards in with the TTP against their eventual enemy, the GoP?

These men know that they'll always be safe so long as their activities are directed against Afghanistan. Nazir and Bahadur, Omar, Haqqani, and Hekmatyar have all been assiduous in maintaining the proper decorum with their Pakistani hosts.

Your sentiments read as heart-felt. I truly wish it were so but I see no inclination at all from your government that they, while recognizing the condition, don't see it as a problem and have made no commitment to correct it.

The simple fact of the matter is that these groups are proxy tools of your government and too valuable, despite the corrosive influence they've had upon your tribal populace, to be attacked.
 
What is happening here is Pakstan's fence-straddling to keep all options open. This stems from viewing Afghanistan as a prize within some great power competition against India. That may be so but the United States and others see that as contributing to the problem and not a solution.

At no time that I can recall has Pakistan attempted to be a force for broad reconciliation within Afghanistan. Doing so would have indicated to all that Pakistan recognizes the multi-ethnic and multi-sect aspects of Afghanistan's culture and society and respects their roles in developing Afghanistan as much as Pakistan does for the pashtu.

That's cost Pakistan deeply in the eyes of othes and calls to question your good faith on the issue of Afghanistan. Sanctuary clearly reinforces such. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to keep an insurgency breathing and sanctuary has historically proven to be the best way to sustain such a war.

So too here and now.

That, fundamentally, is the problem from ISAF's perspective. Afghanistan can't be stabilized so long as Pakistan doesn't wish so and, further, pays no penalty for pursuing the prevention of such under any hand but their own.

However far down the road you envision this matter proceeding before reaching its predictable climax might be interesting. I think America has gone to great lengths to forebear this problem for eight years in the hopes that Pakistan could be swayed to see fit to make this matter go away.

Now you are finally being held accountable, it appears, for what I've long contended at def.pk was the central issue and the unavoidable elephant in the room-sanctuary.

I believe that your government is ill-prepared to face your public and definitively declare that what Nazir and Bahadur are doing is WRONG. Note that Pakistan wouldn't be asked to fire one bullet by doing so.

Is that too much "do more" for you?

For myself it constitutes a good beginning that earmarks a principle of sovereign authority over foreign policy-making, identifies transgressors, and issues fair warning to cease and desist.

It also puts you on the side of the good guys. That would be an important improvement to your image.:agree:

Thanks.:usflag:
 
Hi,

The illusion that the u s of a is living under, of bringing peace in afg, without including the taliban heirarchy is truly wishful. America had long crossed that line which led to the failure and defeat of another one of its foreign campaigns.

The goal post and the targets were changed right in the middle of the initial on-slaught---the euphoria of early victory against the taliban made the u s loose its way to the goal that it wanted to achieve---actually it wanted the world to see the capture of OBL---but since they let him escape at first in his entourage of toyota pickups and then at tora bora---the u s's presence is like that of a headless chicken running around in circle spraying everyone around with blood.

You know that unlike the previous failures that the millitary blamed on politicians---this time they were nowhere close. It was the u s millitary that truly failed in taking down its target.

The afg taliban are fighting a war of independence against an occupying force---an occupying force that has killed hundreds of thousands of afghans mercilessly.

Pakistan has every right to protect its assets. At this stage, even a half million troops cannot bring permament peace to afg. Whomsoever they put in power---the moment the americans leave---there will be blood shed one more time. It is about time that the americans used their brains instead of their feet---talk to the taliban---make them a partner in peace and then get out of the country with their tails between their legs.

The good Lord works in strange ways---people keep forgetting that and the good Lord keeps on reminding them----He would take the weakest to bring down the mightiest. Indeed the ways of the Lord are unique.
 
I believe that your government is ill-prepared to face your public and definitively declare that what Nazir and Bahadur are doing is WRONG. Note that Pakistan wouldn't be asked to fire one bullet by doing so.

Is that too much "do more" for you?

Right, let Pakistan publicly declare that the ONLY way Haqqani / Hikmatyar / Mullah Omar can retain any relevance in Afghanistan is by contesting democratic elections. Let Pakistan further aver that until that happens, Afghan and ISAF efforts to bring them to justice are fully justified and legitimate.
 
ya kill him when he is in afghanistan (3 weeks in a month). and if u are so bothered about his network then y dont u first get hold of afghan provinces which are already under his control. no one is stoppin u from doin that.

This is unsupportable. You refuse to exercise sovereignty in your own territory, and don't want anybody else to clean up the mess that you refuse to clean up.
 
This is unsupportable. You refuse to exercise sovereignty in your own territory, and don't want anybody else to clean up the mess that you refuse to clean up.



Hi,

It is our discretion how we use it for the one week of stay in our area---if he is there for 3 weeks of the month in his motherland---do what ever you feel fit to him at your time and place of your chosing---but not at my expense.

If you let china come and clean up the mess in kashmir and other regions, we will definitely let the u s come and do it in nwfp---is that a deal or what.
 
"Pakistan has every right to protect its assets."

That's the only element of your diatribe which matters. If those assets are so acknowledged by your government then such would make you the enemy of America, ISAF, the GoA, and the rest of the U.N.

Rights? On proxies and sanctuary? You have none.

All you have is indulgence and that can change. Maybe it should.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
"I still have the 2nd grad math book published in University of Nebraska where simple math problem goes like this 'if you have 4 bullet and kill 2 Russian how many bullet will be left?'"

Everybody in Pakistan does. So?

"This was the exceed of Brainwashing Sufi Afghan and Pashton with dogma of Wahabism…so stop blaming poor Pakistan..."

Why? Did wahabbism come from the University of Nebraska? Catch a clue-this has a LOT more to do with wrapping your arms around the afghan taliban government and giving them a great big hug while throwing your homes open to these men.

Your gullible and largely uneducated tribals saw who the "winners" are and who the "losers" are, made a decision and chose their own irhabist ways against the GoP.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
"I still have the 2nd grad math book published in University of Nebraska where simple math problem goes like this 'if you have 4 bullet and kill 2 Russian how many bullet will be left?'"

Everybody in Pakistan does. So?

So...the point is you have no morally high ground...it was not Pakistan but your government that radicalized the afghan refugees natured in Pakistani refugee camps. Regan even call them equivalent to America founding fathers. These are human beings not robots…you can not switch them on and off…for there is no difference between Soviet and US occupation for these people. You sow the seed of radicalism in the region

Why? Did wahabbism come from the University of Nebraska? Catch a clue-this has a LOT more to do with wrapping your arms around the afghan taliban government and giving them a great big hug while throwing your homes open to these men.

The fact is Wahabism, Dewbandis and so on are NOT native to Afghan and Pashtons. In fact if you are speaking about religious zeal, Come to think of it, the association between Pashtuns and Islam is totally over played by those who wish to benefit from the geo-strategic position of Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand Line. The Pashtun history, language, literature, culture and Pukhtunwali carry no specific baggage from Islam. There has not been a single religious movement among Pashtuns in the recorded history. Pashtons have fought for country, nation, Tribe maybe sometimes money but never has an indigenous Islamic movement of any sort among Pashtuns. The Wahabdi, Nejadi and Deobandi ***** are both external and non-Pashtun/Afghan.

Your gullible and largely uneducated tribals saw who the "winners" are and who the "losers" are, made a decision and chose their own irhabist ways against the GoP.
Thanks.:usflag:

The fact is the tribal were never really part of Pakistan, the law, rule and regulation of Pakistan does not even apply there so they are not even part of Pakistan...nor they consider themselves Pakistani. if you don't believe me then check Mullah Nazir the pro-pakistan TTP leader who has his allegiance not to gov or country of Pakistan but to Afghan Mullah omar. Indeed you should not be so ungrateful for these "gullible and largely uneducated " tribal for these are the same people who you used their bravery and resilient nature and at the same time appealing to their religious sentiments….to projected Russians as atheists instead of anti imperialists…the same tribal that won your cold war for you.
 
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