Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[ajtr]

Its not just me but even our soldiers face death with smile on their face and you should understand the fact that no one is mad to start wars without any reasons and your country give us enough reasons to start these wars. Soldiers don't care what will be the consequences of the wars before going for it and secondly i will never dare to make fun of any soldier who lost his life in these wars because i am also the son of father who got badly injured in war of 1965

I'm not sure if india gives reason for war or not but it sure give reasons for PA generals a reason to ego massaging and when all fails at the front its anger is diverted inward in the form of coups and martial law on its own people.Regarding soldiers fighting at front and dying with honor and smile is not unique to pakistani soldiers alone its same with any country's soldier.But rejecting to accept the bodies of those who die with smile is great dishonor an army can dr may be for elite generals lives of low rank solider is just a cannon fodder to its own ego boosting.

And regarding making fun of soldiers who died ,you already did it with your misplaced use of smiles that too after your own father getting injured in 1965.its like you spit on his sacrifice by using funny smiles on the death of his army soldiers to which he once belonged to

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I'm not sure if india gives reason for war or not but it sure give reasons for PA generals a reason to ego massaging and when all fails at the front its anger is diverted inward in the form of coups and martial law on its own people.Regarding soldiers fighting at front and dying with honor and smile is not unique to pakistani soldiers alone its same with any country's soldier.But rejecting to accept the bodies of those who die with smile is great dishonor an army can dr may be for elite generals lives of low rank solider is just a cannon fodder to its own ego boosting.

And regarding making fun of soldiers who died ,you already did it with your misplaced use of smiles that too after your own father getting injured in 1965.its like you spit on his sacrifice by using funny smiles on the death of his army soldiers to which he once belonged to

Here we go again. Dont act like emotional kid. My use of smile at the end of reply don't suggest that i am laughing at death of those soldiers who died in defending their countries but it seem you know about my intentions better than myself. what else you said about not accepting dead bodies of soldiers is nothing but your personal assumption and i also don't care about your personal views of paksitani generals but you are entitled to your opinions

 

[RazPaK]

And you can smile at the loss of lives as if yo are playing match in india resulting in no achievable strategic objective...only strategic objective was at the domestic front COAS was able to impose another coup and martial law on the nation and write a book later on to sell it on the graves of those martyrs whose bodies he even refused to take back and honor them in military tradition.

I am astonished that very reasonable intellectuals such as bangalore and joe shearer agreed with your post. Although i don't like either of them, i can certainly respect them. For indians the kargil issue is black and white. There is no grey matter to assess the conflict. The thought of our politicians interfering in military affairs was thought of as treacher. Too bad that Indians always miss the political strife in Pakistan at the time of kargil. There were personal rivalries and vendettas at play during kargil. It's unfortunate that indians will not try to look at these facts.

 

[ajtr]

Here we go again. Dont act like emotional kid. My use of smile at the end of reply don't suggest that i am laughing at death of those soldiers who died in defending their countries but it seem you know about my intentions better than myself. what else you said about not accepting dead bodies of soldiers is nothing but your personal assumption and i also don't care about your personal views of paksitani generals but you are entitled to your opinions

Emotional kid!!! If wonder whose emotions are more pure an pious a kid's or an adult's and you know the answer better.If it reaches such a situation then i would like to be a emotional kid than an adult who fakes all emotions.Even you know better why did you use the smiles and i know the same so why this explanation from you to prove something beyond the intended use of smiles.As for the opinion about generals and not accepting the dead bodies of the soldiers again i ve to correct you on that its not an opinion but the glaring black mark.My opinion you simply ignored when i said its elitist general vs under-privileged lower ranks.Even Armies are not free from class issues here.Its have and havenots of the army.

 

[ajtr]

I am astonished that very reasonable intellectuals such as bangalore and joe shearer agreed with your post. Although i don't like either of them, i can certainly respect them. For indians the kargil issue is black and white. There is no grey matter to assess the conflict. The thought of our politicians interfering in military affairs was thought of as treacher. Too bad that Indians always miss the political strife in Pakistan at the time of kargil. There were personal rivalries and vendettas at play during kargil. It's unfortunate that indians will not try to look at these facts.

Even i'm astonished that of all the indians Joe shearer thanked my post.As for kargil its not black and white for indians as all the greys comes out from only from indian side after extensive study on it.And regarding Pakistan's internal political strife and vendetta what India has to do with it?only thing india was interested in peace talks at lahore and reply back in kargil.Isnt it amazing of all the people who oppose indians' interests in pakistan's internal affiars on PDF now giving explanation that india should not have miss the pakistan's political strife and vendetta at the time of kargil.Arent you contradicting yourself?.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I am astonished that very reasonable intellectuals such as bangalore and joe shearer agreed with your post. Although i don't like either of them, i can certainly respect them. For indians the kargil issue is black and white. There is no grey matter to assess the conflict. The thought of our politicians interfering in military affairs was thought of as treacher. Too bad that Indians always miss the political strife in Pakistan at the time of kargil. There were personal rivalries and vendettas at play during kargil. It's unfortunate that indians will not try to look at these facts.

For some Indians, the Kargil issue is black and white. I am sick and tired of whining little brats who brag about mythical victories, and then squeal when their nation's setbacks are pointed out, because that is also the moment when they start taking shelter behind numerical disparities. That is a weak and wholly childish excuse. War is not a beautiful thing, there is nothing sporting about it, except that one can try and avoid barbaric behaviour towards prisoners and the bodies of the dead. War is only about victory. If it is the victory of a million against one, the commander of a million deserves a medal for ensuring that the enemy would fight at a disadvantage.

This business about political strife in Pakistan at the time of Kargil fails to wring my withers. Nobody asked either the PA or Mian Sharif to go to war when they were not united. If they did so, what of it? To do so, knowingly, was to court defeat. What have we to do with irresponsible adventurers who put their own country into trouble without thought for the consequences. In this, what have we to do? Are we guilty of Section 306 of the Indian Penal Code?

Please stop quoting feeble excuses for defeat in utterly irresponsible acts of war thrust on a peaceful neighbour.

As for ajtr and her surprise, she has been on my ignore list - no other person has, not even the four flushers - until yesterday. However, that post, about the utterly despicable behaviour of senior commanders who sent their men to battle and then refused to acknowledge them to save their skins, was too strong and visceral not to recognize. My approval, my thanks were torn out of me by reading the brutal truth so starkly laid out on display.

 

[Bang Galore]

War is not a beautiful thing, there is nothing sporting about it, except that one can try and avoid barbaric behaviour towards prisoners and the bodies of the dead. War is only about victory. If it is the victory of a million against one, the commander of a million deserves a medal for ensuring that the enemy would fight at a disadvantage.

Well said !

 

[meena24]

He didn't talk about Islamic Rule of India ....

He talked about thousands of years of Islamic Military tradition which , according to Western Scholars , launched wars on the most grandest and most successful scale in the human history...

West only took-over after industrialization , that is last some 300 years etc ....

Anyways , don't get hurt ....



Yes , Pakistan Army was involved ..but on the scale indian army was involved..

We had just 4000 or so troops involved in Kargil conflict...with no PAF support..while you had 30,000 troops , artillery divisions and IAF air cover..had Pakistan escalated the conflict to the same level...Indians would've lost 10X more lives than they did...and would probably have left utterly defeated at Kargil...

Pakistan Army gave up few posts (Tiger Hill) due to IAF bombing...BUT..we kept other strategic indian posts like point 5353 , and three other peaks etc ...

In the end however , Kargil ended at Pakistan's military victory. We conquered Indian strategic posts like 5353 , Saltro Ridge , Dalu Nag etc etc ..and we earned the capability of over-watching your supplies through NH-1D!

Indians gained NOTHING from the conflict ....They only lost ...

Lost land , territory , hill pots , and most of all , numerous soldiers and officers...

Point 5353 was never occupied by India, Indian army chief has clarified it many times, Saltro ridge is under India's control. I very well know siachen is very much haunting you.

 

[AUz]

Point 5353 was never occupied by India, Indian army chief has clarified it many times, Saltro ridge is under India's control. I very well know siachen is very much haunting you.

Yar it was. That is why I posted you the links. Your chief tried to hide the issue in 2001....but in 2004 and 2009 , the reports came out that 5353 was indeed an Indian post. Indian soldiers in that region knew those posts to be theirs...It is not me , but Indian media saying it.

And its Saddle Ridge , I mistakenly put Saltro...sorry for the mix-up ..

Read the links I posted. Siachen was your aggression and there was no need for it.

Here read

Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge, Dalu Nag. These are posts in the Kargil sector that the soldiers of the Indian army knew incontrovertibly to be their own. They form a sort of memory map of disjointed emplacements along the treacherous mountains in the Kargil sector. Features that are joined in various military maps of the area by dotted lines.Army sources confirmed to Tehelka that at least two of these features are under Pakistani control, thanks to botched up military operations and a government that wanted to hide the truth.

Former defence minister George Fernandes, argued that the LoC runs over Pt 5353 and, therefore, was unoccupied by either countries till Kargil happened. A point which is not true.

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main4.asp?filename=Ne071704pakistan_still.asp&id=1

.... This is source is latest , hence it dispels the story of reuters that you gave me ...

 

[K-Xeroid]

This business about political strife in Pakistan at the time of Kargil fails to wring my withers. Nobody asked either the PA or Mian Sharif to go to war when they were not united. If they did so, what of it? To do so, knowingly, was to court defeat. What have we to do with irresponsible adventurers who put their own country into trouble without thought for the consequences. In this, what have we to do? Are we guilty of Section 306 of the Indian Penal Code?

Seriously, When hostile forces are knocking your doors on LOC, sending their Aircrafts for bombing then it ultimately reunites two internal rivals at some intants to defend itself, again initially conflicted Kashmiri fighters and Indian forces later gets converted into a War b\w two nations. As a small spark can intensifies the situation on LOC is applicable here. So you can't put the whole responsibility on Pakistan for that war . but still, War is not a beautiful thing , and both nations have to be careful in future so such incidents can be avoid in future.

 

[kumarkumar1867]

The reason young indians were slaughtered was the great tactical positions we adopted. It is just a continuation of the 1,000 years of Muslim Warrior tradition, over the hapless indians.

Hahaha... Now Muslim warrior tradition??
claiming claiming claiming like a kid.

Since you planned the attack, done chindi chorii occupied high peaks breaking treaty & our intelligence failed as we trusted back stabber like you. So its not surprise that your mujaheed had advantage over young indians.
Same young indian shooted as$ of mujaheeds running with tails between legs.

Read post no - 470 again to know where you stand.

For more info...i must tell you 1000 years military tradition in ancient india ended when Raja Shivaji with few hundred soldiers ended moghul rule and his successors brought delhi kashmir punjab peshawar under rule of saffron.
If Marathas didnt loosed to british you would probably speaking marathi today as your islamic military tradition were a$s-beaten & ended of but* hurts.
All you can whine is about past we know that. Keep doing.

Today , Pakistan Army enjoys a strategic advantage of over-watching NH-1D .... becharay bhartis ...

Wow keep watching like impotents ...great achievement.
You cant dare to do more.

We too love watching when a Pakistani needs VISA when he visits Bangladesh.

 

[K-Xeroid]

Since you planned the attack, done chindi chorii occupied high peaks breaking treaty & our intelligence failed as we trusted back stabber like you. So its not surprise that your mujaheed had advantage over young indians.
Same young indian shooted as$ of mujaheeds running with tails between legs.

Well ! You really need to know that other then 500+ indian soldiers died in Kargil war and 5000+ in Siachin(conflicts+avalanches) . These freedom fighters have killed more then 7000+ security personnals and 15000+ got injured in this whole kashmiri conflict.

Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[modern_newton]

kargil war had two phases: Pakistan won the war on the ground (phase one) and lost the war on the table (Phase two).

Kargil war on the ground (phase one): Pakistan gave stick to Indian forces and showed them the gutter. President Musharraf was the hero of this war. Indian lost thousands of elite soldiers without achieving anything. There were minimal Pakistani casualties and Pakistan gained control over huge areas (most peaks in the area) with Indian forces in Kashmir vulnerable.

Kargil war on the table (phase two): India complained to USA, Nawaz was called by Clinton and Nawaz (God knows for what reason) surrendered and thus agreed to withdraw from all areas Pakistan gained (hence in effect making a victorious war into a lost war). Actually, Nawaz declared to Clinton that all occupying Kashmir on Indian side were not Pakistani soldiers (thus denying them status as Pakistani soldier), regardless, Nawaz also agreed that he will use his influence on them to make them retreat. During this retreat (or withdrawal), Pakistan lost number of men that volunteered in this war.

Kargil war made Musharraf hero (due to success of phase one when almost all casualties were on Indian side and Pakistan achieved complete control over vast area and most peaks in the area)

And

Kargil war made Nawaz villain (due to his surrendering on table in USA), resulting in withdrawing from captured areas and loosing lot of men due to this withdrawal.

Note: Pakistan suffered minimal casualties during attacking, capturing, and holding phase (Phase one of the war under Musharraf). Most casualties Pakistan suffered was during withdrawal phase (Phase two of the war after Nawaz in USA agreed that Pakistan would withdraw)

Result: As mentioned in above : Pakistan won the Kargil war on the ground (Phase one) but lost the kargil war on table (Phase two).

Consequence: Army revolted against Nawaz. Nawaz was thrown out of power and army gave the power to Musharaf.

 

[KRAIT]

Well ! You really need to know that other then 500+ indian soldiers died in Kargil war and 5000+ in Siachin(conflicts+avalanches) . These freedom fighters have killed more then 7000+ security personnals and 15000+ got injured in this whole kashmiri conflict.

Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You forgot over 50,000 innocent civilians killed by these terrorists. On whose hand is the blood of these people.

 

[RazPaK]

For some Indians, the Kargil issue is black and white. I am sick and tired of whining little brats who brag about mythical victories, and then squeal when their nation's setbacks are pointed out, because that is also the moment when they start taking shelter behind numerical disparities. That is a weak and wholly childish excuse. War is not a beautiful thing, there is nothing sporting about it, except that one can try and avoid barbaric behaviour towards prisoners and the bodies of the dead. War is only about victory. If it is the victory of a million against one, the commander of a million deserves a medal for ensuring that the enemy would fight at a disadvantage.

This business about political strife in Pakistan at the time of Kargil fails to wring my withers. Nobody asked either the PA or Mian Sharif to go to war when they were not united. If they did so, what of it? To do so, knowingly, was to court defeat. What have we to do with irresponsible adventurers who put their own country into trouble without thought for the consequences. In this, what have we to do? Are we guilty of Section 306 of the Indian Penal Code?

Please stop quoting feeble excuses for defeat in utterly irresponsible acts of war thrust on a peaceful neighbour.

As for ajtr and her surprise, she has been on my ignore list - no other person has, not even the four flushers - until yesterday. However, that post, about the utterly despicable behaviour of senior commanders who sent their men to battle and then refused to acknowledge them to save their skins, was too strong and visceral not to recognize. My approval, my thanks were torn out of me by reading the brutal truth so starkly laid out on display.

Mythical defeats?


In the physical realm, your Indian forces were pounded, defeated,
and humiliated. We give you the credit of having a diplomatic victory and that was all that you attained.

Your entire point is to not show bravado and to say that a cowardly victory is a victory nonetheless. Ground realities beg to differ.

The entire doctrine of your military has been changed due to Kargil after facing such humiliation.

With limited forces and logistics your army was routed time and time again by the mujahadeen.


You can save face by bending words in your next reply. Honestly, it does not matter to me or the Pakistani military. With so little, so much was achieved.