K-Xeroid
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Fake counters is the trend of Indian forces. There are several Fake counters have done in Kashmir. and many civilians were targeted in it.
Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse
- Thread starter Bang Galore
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ok dude agreed......pakistan is super powerful than india......now no more jokes please
Fireurimagination
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When peace process was going on you stabbed us in the back and captured unoccupied heights (what bravery), we fought, climbed and snatched them back, your intruder became target practice for IAF, God knows where PAF was? Probably were too frightened to face IAF, you ran back from territory you call your own (even after holding heights you can't defend them), shamelessly labelled army regulars as terrorists, declined to take their bodies and give them proper burial, One hell of a victory?
RazPaK
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When peace process was going on you stabbed us in the back and captured unoccupied heights (what bravery), we fought, climbed and snatched them back, your intruder became target practice for IAF, God knows where PAF was? Probably were too frightened to face IAF, you ran back from territory you call your own (even after holding heights you can't defend them), shamelessly labelled army regulars as terrorists, declined to take their bodies and give them proper burial, One hell of a victory?
Yeap. Our PAF was so scared of your IAF, when your planes were shot down regardless.
Fireurimagination
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It was reported that, Pakistan intruders were out of ammunition, food and escape routes as IA had successfully blocked all supplies and routes, Pak soldiers were literally eating grass and reading book titled 'Death is Beautiful'
That was because IAF planes and pilots came out and fought and were not watching the skies from the ground like PAF did
Yeap. Our PAF was so scared of your IAF, when your planes were shot down regardless.
That was because IAF planes and pilots came out and fought and were not watching the skies from the ground like PAF did
illusion8
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The writer is a retired vice-admiral and former vice-chief of the Naval Staff,
What have you done, my friend, Nawaz Sharif? was how, as narrated in Bill Clintons memoirs My Life, the Clinton-Nawaz discourse began soon after the photo-op at the steps of the White House on July 4, 1999. Nawaz Sharif had embarked on that fateful sojourn a little over ten years ago for a face-saving climb-down from Kargil. It triggered politico-military consequences for the country and within a span of another three months, Sharif was overthrown, and the country is still reeling from its effects. Musharrafs unceremonious exit after a rule of nearly nine years has made little or no difference at all.
During much of the eight week period preceding the July 4 meeting in Washington, we had looked helplessly at TV images of pinpoint artillery shoots and resultant instant pulverization of some of the nations bravest sons on such mountainous salients in the war zone as Point 5140 (Dras), Point 5203 ( Batalik), Three Pimples (Dras) and Tiger Hill.
Operation Badr, as it was called, was launched to coincide with thawing of snow and summer opening of Indias National Highway 1A, which links Srinagar to Leh via Kargil. Regular army personnel of the Northern Light Infantry, supported by special forces, artillery, engineers and other combat support personnel, in the garb of mujahideen and under a well-executed cover plan, infiltrated through gaps into Indian territory to occupy mountain tops between the LoC and the highway at several points.
It is a historical fact that any surreptitious military operations, executed howsoever brilliantly and courageously, are unfortunately of no real consequences, unless backed by such other elements of national power as a robust foreign policy, vibrant economy, national consensus, a cause based on sound internationally acknowledged principles and above all a zeitgeist for what a country sets about to achieve.
As the then Indian Army Chief, General V P Malik observed: Militarily this situation could not have been better for Pakistan after the incursions, since its troops were inside India and had occupied strategic heights along the highway. Had they stayed, they could have cut off the supply route to Leh along the 160 kilometres LoC, seriously affecting Indians ability to move, re-deploy or augment troops from one sector to another. They were poised to launch operations in Turtuk close to southern Siachen glacier and re-draw the LoC in Dras-Kargil-Batalik-Turtuk sectors. Intensified, enlarged or prolonged fighting would have enabled them to draw the worlds attention to Jammu and Kashmir and a war between two nuclear nations.
So far so good but beyond that, it appears, it was all lost on our military and political leaders.
At the height of the crisis, Benazir Bhutto had disclosed in an interview to Third Eye Television that President Pervez Musharraf had brought the Kargil plan to her when she was prime minister (when he was director-general military operations) and that she had rejected it.
The Indian army too is by this bug; venturing into Siachen under a similar impulse, and to date India retains under its control an area of the glacier of some 900-1000 square miles. Pakistan launched quite a few efforts to push back the Indians from a nearly 43 miles icy front, the most significant one being in 1984 with a sizeable troops concentration at Khapalu spearheaded by elite SSG elements, but this was repulsed by the Indians.
This failure too reportedly bears Musharrafs hallmark signatures as one of the masterminds and planners. The Banna Post named after Naib Subedar Banna Singh (the only Param Veer Chakra recipient of the Kargil conflict), taken away from us in fierce hand-to-hand combat in broad daylight, continues to be an eyesore on an otherwise glistening and pristine glacier. The Pakistan Army has just celebrated Year of the Soldier. No prizes for guessing who would win hands down any contest for the The Most Failed Soldier of the Decade, were there to be any nominations.
But herein lies the whole irony; the Indian army exploited a lack of clarity in a border demarcation agreement and occupied stretches of glacier which were open to different interpretations. The Pakistan army was trying to change lines over which wars had been fought and which, over a period, had morphed from a ceasefire line post-1965 to line of control after Simla Agreement. This fundamental difference, if not clear to the small coterie of Kargil planners, would have been clearer, had there been a broader consultative decision-making process.
The Hamoodur Rahman Commission on the 1971 debacle had observed that the commander-in-chief of the Pakistan Navy learnt about the outbreak of war from the news bulletin on Radio Pakistan. Mainly as a result of this report, naval and air headquarters were shifted from Karachi and Peshawar to Islamabad at tremendous cost to the national exchequer. The National Defence College (NDC) was established at Rawalpindi to jointly train potential senior officers from the three services in the art of war. A Joint Services Headquarters was established to chalk out joint operational plans.
It was hoped that as a result of such measures, a generation of officers would foster closer tri-services understanding, and make joint operational planning more sensible. It is evident from the Kargil misadventure that this is not happening. The bonhomie and camaraderie garnered at the NDC, it seems, is only for extending mundane favors to fellow senior officers from time to time and never quite put to higher national purpose.
At best, Kargil was a tactical surprise beyond that it failed at the strategic level. After some hesitation and denials, we accepted the mortal remains of Captain Colonel Sher Khan and Havaldar Lalak Jan and honoured them with the highest gallantry awards, as praise for their courage by the enemy was becoming too embarrassing. There was of course no compunction or embarrassment in promoting/rewarding the four generals largely perceived to bear prime responsibility for the fiasco.
The Hamoodur Rehman commission report remained shrouded in mystery for over three decades, with people remaining unaware all this while as to why exactly we lost East Pakistan, till portions of it were beamed at us only recently from across the border forcing us to release it in its totality. On Kargil too, the people of Pakistan to this day are unaware as to what actually happened and why we drifted to the precipice of a potentially disastrous conflict.
What is known at best are nebulous and hazy facts between Musharrafs now famous everyone was onboard quip to the BBC reporter, the phone call intercept between General Aziz and Musharraf and Nawaz Sharifs approval in principle at a moment when his concentration, to the nations misfortune, was at the lowest ebb. This is clearly not enough.
The central issue is not whether Nawaz Sharif, the elected civilian prime minister had given an approval in principle and was onboard. It is also not whether another prime minister, Benazir Bhutto, had vetoed the Kargil plan when it was presented to her. Rather, it is the near absolute obsession, of our brethren in Khaki with the LoC, and their inability to resist temptation to do something or the other with it at considerable peril to the country. This obsession has not waned since Ayubs era, without realization that the opportunity to etch the Kashmir border permanently in stone through military campaigns was lost forever, when the Indian Army beat us to the Srinagar airport in 1948 Kashmir War by landing a company strength of troops there. Since then, it has always been only this Line or that; with the square miles area under control of the two adversaries in Azad & Indian Held Kashmir being, more or less a constant.
For as long the LoC remains an LoC, there will always be a danger for another adventure if and when we are through with yesterdays mujahideen turned todays terrorists in Swat, Waziristan and other areas in the north. Isnt it time there was an exhaustive enquiry into it and the right lessons learnt for all time to come. In comparison with re-opening Zulfiquar Bhuttos judicial murder case, which the government is thinking about, it might be easier to investigate Kargil where at least most of the principal witnesses are still around. The chances of that, however, happening in a country where a retired chief of the air staff, has to seek permission from the incumbent COAS just to appear before a National Assembly/Senate Committee, are slim unless we undergo a cathartic experience in one form or the other, there will be no relief from this lingering national pain.
Investigating Kargil: op-ed by Taj M Khattak in The News, July 2 | vazeerm.com
Tactical and diplomatic catastrophe, Kargil was one among the numerous line up of Pakistan's routine bungling Mis-adventurism.
What have you done, my friend, Nawaz Sharif? was how, as narrated in Bill Clintons memoirs My Life, the Clinton-Nawaz discourse began soon after the photo-op at the steps of the White House on July 4, 1999. Nawaz Sharif had embarked on that fateful sojourn a little over ten years ago for a face-saving climb-down from Kargil. It triggered politico-military consequences for the country and within a span of another three months, Sharif was overthrown, and the country is still reeling from its effects. Musharrafs unceremonious exit after a rule of nearly nine years has made little or no difference at all.
During much of the eight week period preceding the July 4 meeting in Washington, we had looked helplessly at TV images of pinpoint artillery shoots and resultant instant pulverization of some of the nations bravest sons on such mountainous salients in the war zone as Point 5140 (Dras), Point 5203 ( Batalik), Three Pimples (Dras) and Tiger Hill.
Operation Badr, as it was called, was launched to coincide with thawing of snow and summer opening of Indias National Highway 1A, which links Srinagar to Leh via Kargil. Regular army personnel of the Northern Light Infantry, supported by special forces, artillery, engineers and other combat support personnel, in the garb of mujahideen and under a well-executed cover plan, infiltrated through gaps into Indian territory to occupy mountain tops between the LoC and the highway at several points.
It is a historical fact that any surreptitious military operations, executed howsoever brilliantly and courageously, are unfortunately of no real consequences, unless backed by such other elements of national power as a robust foreign policy, vibrant economy, national consensus, a cause based on sound internationally acknowledged principles and above all a zeitgeist for what a country sets about to achieve.
As the then Indian Army Chief, General V P Malik observed: Militarily this situation could not have been better for Pakistan after the incursions, since its troops were inside India and had occupied strategic heights along the highway. Had they stayed, they could have cut off the supply route to Leh along the 160 kilometres LoC, seriously affecting Indians ability to move, re-deploy or augment troops from one sector to another. They were poised to launch operations in Turtuk close to southern Siachen glacier and re-draw the LoC in Dras-Kargil-Batalik-Turtuk sectors. Intensified, enlarged or prolonged fighting would have enabled them to draw the worlds attention to Jammu and Kashmir and a war between two nuclear nations.
So far so good but beyond that, it appears, it was all lost on our military and political leaders.
At the height of the crisis, Benazir Bhutto had disclosed in an interview to Third Eye Television that President Pervez Musharraf had brought the Kargil plan to her when she was prime minister (when he was director-general military operations) and that she had rejected it.
The Indian army too is by this bug; venturing into Siachen under a similar impulse, and to date India retains under its control an area of the glacier of some 900-1000 square miles. Pakistan launched quite a few efforts to push back the Indians from a nearly 43 miles icy front, the most significant one being in 1984 with a sizeable troops concentration at Khapalu spearheaded by elite SSG elements, but this was repulsed by the Indians.
This failure too reportedly bears Musharrafs hallmark signatures as one of the masterminds and planners. The Banna Post named after Naib Subedar Banna Singh (the only Param Veer Chakra recipient of the Kargil conflict), taken away from us in fierce hand-to-hand combat in broad daylight, continues to be an eyesore on an otherwise glistening and pristine glacier. The Pakistan Army has just celebrated Year of the Soldier. No prizes for guessing who would win hands down any contest for the The Most Failed Soldier of the Decade, were there to be any nominations.
But herein lies the whole irony; the Indian army exploited a lack of clarity in a border demarcation agreement and occupied stretches of glacier which were open to different interpretations. The Pakistan army was trying to change lines over which wars had been fought and which, over a period, had morphed from a ceasefire line post-1965 to line of control after Simla Agreement. This fundamental difference, if not clear to the small coterie of Kargil planners, would have been clearer, had there been a broader consultative decision-making process.
The Hamoodur Rahman Commission on the 1971 debacle had observed that the commander-in-chief of the Pakistan Navy learnt about the outbreak of war from the news bulletin on Radio Pakistan. Mainly as a result of this report, naval and air headquarters were shifted from Karachi and Peshawar to Islamabad at tremendous cost to the national exchequer. The National Defence College (NDC) was established at Rawalpindi to jointly train potential senior officers from the three services in the art of war. A Joint Services Headquarters was established to chalk out joint operational plans.
It was hoped that as a result of such measures, a generation of officers would foster closer tri-services understanding, and make joint operational planning more sensible. It is evident from the Kargil misadventure that this is not happening. The bonhomie and camaraderie garnered at the NDC, it seems, is only for extending mundane favors to fellow senior officers from time to time and never quite put to higher national purpose.
At best, Kargil was a tactical surprise beyond that it failed at the strategic level. After some hesitation and denials, we accepted the mortal remains of Captain Colonel Sher Khan and Havaldar Lalak Jan and honoured them with the highest gallantry awards, as praise for their courage by the enemy was becoming too embarrassing. There was of course no compunction or embarrassment in promoting/rewarding the four generals largely perceived to bear prime responsibility for the fiasco.
The Hamoodur Rehman commission report remained shrouded in mystery for over three decades, with people remaining unaware all this while as to why exactly we lost East Pakistan, till portions of it were beamed at us only recently from across the border forcing us to release it in its totality. On Kargil too, the people of Pakistan to this day are unaware as to what actually happened and why we drifted to the precipice of a potentially disastrous conflict.
What is known at best are nebulous and hazy facts between Musharrafs now famous everyone was onboard quip to the BBC reporter, the phone call intercept between General Aziz and Musharraf and Nawaz Sharifs approval in principle at a moment when his concentration, to the nations misfortune, was at the lowest ebb. This is clearly not enough.
The central issue is not whether Nawaz Sharif, the elected civilian prime minister had given an approval in principle and was onboard. It is also not whether another prime minister, Benazir Bhutto, had vetoed the Kargil plan when it was presented to her. Rather, it is the near absolute obsession, of our brethren in Khaki with the LoC, and their inability to resist temptation to do something or the other with it at considerable peril to the country. This obsession has not waned since Ayubs era, without realization that the opportunity to etch the Kashmir border permanently in stone through military campaigns was lost forever, when the Indian Army beat us to the Srinagar airport in 1948 Kashmir War by landing a company strength of troops there. Since then, it has always been only this Line or that; with the square miles area under control of the two adversaries in Azad & Indian Held Kashmir being, more or less a constant.
For as long the LoC remains an LoC, there will always be a danger for another adventure if and when we are through with yesterdays mujahideen turned todays terrorists in Swat, Waziristan and other areas in the north. Isnt it time there was an exhaustive enquiry into it and the right lessons learnt for all time to come. In comparison with re-opening Zulfiquar Bhuttos judicial murder case, which the government is thinking about, it might be easier to investigate Kargil where at least most of the principal witnesses are still around. The chances of that, however, happening in a country where a retired chief of the air staff, has to seek permission from the incumbent COAS just to appear before a National Assembly/Senate Committee, are slim unless we undergo a cathartic experience in one form or the other, there will be no relief from this lingering national pain.
Investigating Kargil: op-ed by Taj M Khattak in The News, July 2 | vazeerm.com
Tactical and diplomatic catastrophe, Kargil was one among the numerous line up of Pakistan's routine bungling Mis-adventurism.
AUz
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Your post is filled with rants... We were having a nice discussion but you kids always ruin it..
You can all think "this would have happened , Maratha this , that" blah blah....But the history doesn't change.
The Fact of History is : Islamic Military Onslaught ripped your India into four! , plundered your civilization , destroyed your thousands of years of hardwork in building your civilization , push you to dark ages , destroyed your temples and universities , butchered native indians , ruled you for centuries , and imposed Islamic Culture on India (Today's indian food , dresses , famous monuments , architecture etc etc all carry a strong Islamic Influence on them..) ... so on and so fourth.
Unlike your local unknown , insignificant 'raja' maharaj crap ...Islamic Military tradition was a global phenomenon and is well-known through-out the whole globe ....
A child like you must read works of George F. Nafziger and Mark W. Walton etc as a starter... These Western experts in military history will cause your brain to work..but alas..teenagers like you can only rant..they'll never read any quality work ..
According to the above mentioned experts , Islamic Military tradition launched wars on the grandest and most successful scale inhuman history ... let me ask..what is your "saffron Maratha the great shuppa powa's" reputation? No one even knows them...
Out of THOUSANDS of cultures , faiths , civilization , colors , people etc on the planet...only TWO and just TWO civilizations have attained the status of "Global Civilizations" ---
One is Western/Christian civilization , and the other is Islamic Civilization ....
So where does your india stands?
Even at its WORST , Islamic Civilization fares WAY better than india in every way...be it economy , military strength , resources , geographic spread , influence , OR ...participation in Olympics ...lol ...
All the satellites of U.S.A watch China but don't do anything...are they impotent? Retarded son , why would we do anything in peace time? Strategic Advantages are used during wars ....
BTW , impotents were little bhartis who unilaterally withdrew from a stand-off after losing nearly thousand of their men..not to mention..the "surgical strike" humiliation of your largest open air sh!thole known as bhartimata ...
We occupied indian strategic posts---and KEPT them by the end of war..and militarily won the kargil... it burns? none of our business then ...
I also love when indians need to get VISA to come to Pakistan....
Fireurimagination
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Your post is filled with rants... We were having a nice discussion but you kids always ruin it..
You can all think "this would have happened , Maratha this , that" blah blah....But the history doesn't change.
The Fact of History is : Islamic Military Onslaught ripped your India into four! , plundered your civilization , destroyed your thousands of years of hardwork in building your civilization , push you to dark ages , destroyed your temples and universities , butchered native indians , ruled you for centuries , and imposed Islamic Culture on India (Today's indian food , dresses , famous monuments , architecture etc etc all carry a strong Islamic Influence on them..) ... so on and so fourth.
Unlike your local unknown , insignificant 'raja' maharaj crap ...Islamic Military tradition was a global phenomenon and is well-known through-out the whole globe ....
A child like you must read works of George F. Nafziger and Mark W. Walton etc as a starter... These Western experts in military history will cause your brain to work..but alas..teenagers like you can only rant..they'll never read any quality work ..
According to the above mentioned experts , Islamic Military tradition launched wars on the grandest and most successful scale inhuman history ... let me ask..what is your "saffron Maratha the great shuppa powa's" reputation? No one even knows them...
Out of THOUSANDS of cultures , faiths , civilization , colors , people etc on the planet...only TWO and just TWO civilizations have attained the status of "Global Civilizations" ---
One is Western/Christian civilization , and the other is Islamic Civilization ....
So where does your india stands?
Even at its WORST , Islamic Civilization fares WAY better than india in every way...be it economy , military strength , resources , geographic spread , influence , OR ...participation in Olympics ...lol ...
All the satellites of U.S.A watch China but don't do anything...are they impotent? Retarded son , why would we do anything in peace time? Strategic Advantages are used during wars ....
BTW , impotents were little bhartis who unilaterally withdrew from a stand-off after losing nearly thousand of their men..not to mention..the "surgical strike" humiliation of your largest open air sh!thole known as bhartimata ...
We occupied indian strategic posts---and KEPT them by the end of war..and militarily won the kargil... it burns? none of our business then ...
I also love when indians need to get VISA to come to Pakistan....
All I can say is
KRAIT
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yup fake encounters when innocent Indians dies, RAW consipracy and what not. But when same thing happens in Pakistan , you again blame RAW and their supported TTP. Looks like people are feeded with wrong information. Go to kashmir and see yourself.
Come with facts and figures to disprove our claim. Bring some evidence.
Alchemy
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Dont beat around the bush ... in plain words just accept that Pakistan couldnt gain an inch of land in Kashmir at the end of the war .
PS: Now start your 1000 excuses why you couldnt achieve that or achieve this like in case after loosing all wars !!!
modern_newton
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ok dude agreed......pakistan is super powerful than india......now no more jokes please
Its your misconception that nation need to be super power in order to attack india. We can deal with you with our limited resources . Try it if you have balls and you will see the results
INDIC
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Yeap. Our PAF was so scared of your IAF, when your planes were shot down regardless.
If your airforce could have participated, but could not participate. Bad planning on Kargil. Now you guys even lagging far behind India in infrastructure in mountains.
Fireurimagination
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You can look back on the consequences of 'dealing with us' in the last 65 years, next 20 years and then their will be no dealing
We had balls, We targeted your General Headquarters in Rawalpindi
We had balls, We targeted your aircraft in PNS Mehran in karachi
We had balls, We are supporting TTP.
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