Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[INDIC]

There are three reasons for it ...

1- India was utterly humiliated and embarrassed (as your General at Kargil accepted) , so it had to do alot of propaganda to cover that (Read Brian Cloughley's analysis of Kargil war which concludes at Pakistani military victory , and Indian victory on Indian media lols)

2- We are not brainwashed , inferiority-complex stricken race...hence we didn't need to celebrate our military victory in a battle/small conflict

3- It relates to the last point : Kargil was NOT an official full-fledged military war..It was a pro-longed skirmish , if you may...Pakistan also out-performed India in "run-of-Kutch" skirmish before 1965 war (if you knew) ..but yet we don't "celebrate" run-of-kutch ... So if Kargil was some "war" , we would've celebrated...but it was not a war.

Lastly , your General who commanded forces AT Kargil says that Kargil was an embarrassment and he wasn't convinced that Inida really won...on the other hand...Pakistani Commander during the war says that Kargil was a brilliant operation and was a military success....

So what is there to argue? People who actually fought tells the story

@AUZ, But you did the same in 65, got Ceasefire, declared victory even you never won, public holiday and censored operation Gibratar from textbooks. Why not same repeated for Kargil. You nation still don't know the names of all dead soldiers unlike 65 or 71.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Dil to bhartiye bhailatay hain...hum to sirf facts paish krtay hain jani...

And yes jani , I know , you never heard of these posts before because you are a brainwashed bharti who believe wikipedia to be true...In wiki , it says that India controls "Gyong La" pass at Siachen...while in reality...ask your Army officers...who controls it? ...

Point 5353 is still unknown to the majority of bhartis , who are living with "vijay kargil vijay" cr@p ...

By the way , all my information is confirmed by the detailed report Tehelka magazine published on the issue. They were the first one who brought this issue in lime-light and told indians how they were lied to by their authorities... They confirmed that Army sources told them that some of their posts at Kargil sector are still under Pakistani control , which Pakistan occupied during Kargil conflict in 1999...

So.......

I dont know what you at happy at?

That India didn't bother to take back Pt. 5353 a indian army consider this peak is low in objective and that peak is clearly visible from tiger Hill and can be taken down any time.

Indian Govt. go by Army and local Commander advise that Pt5353 didn't serve ant strategic objective as from Tiger hill we can control the entire area and from Pt 5353 the visibility is also not good so it wont serve any strategic objective to pak. Moreover concentrate on gain area.

Kargil War Celebration done because out many peaks PAk captured we liberated them especially Tiger Hill.

@ Fireyourimagination ...

My reply was not even for you... I was replying to other member in a certain context.....let him reply and don't confuse things...

where dose it says PAK army says that it control that pass?

@AUZ, But you did the same in 65, got Ceasefire, declared victory even you never won, public holiday and censored operation Gibratar from textbooks. Why not same repeated for Kargil. You nation still don't know the names of all dead soldiers unlike 65 or 71.

They also PAK hide report on Kargil, which will expose their Army and its real loses . that why you army ashamed to published report. (PAK Army)

 

[GoodBoy]

Under immense diplomatic pressure and international isolation, Pakistani political establishment's backbone gave way and the fighters were ordered to disengage & fall back. Is that so hard to understand?

LOL... so you were winning but as a goodwill gesture came back.Lies and excuses of Pakistan never runs out.

A country of 1.4+ Billion was finding it difficult to provide enough coffins to the soldiers that were killed during that so called war yet you guys still have the audacity to speak of soldiers lost on either side.

Pakistan lost 4000 soldiers Vs 500 Indians. You are trying to divert the fact but we can understand how humiliating was that for you.

..while those from Pak were disowned by the nation that sent them in to die.

It's a honour for Pakistan to disown their soldiers who fought for their country.But then they admitted and put names on websites after a decade.Pakistan is such a confused state.

Only products of violent rapes can be so idiotic that they take pride in the fact that their mother was raped and dad was a rapist.

It's a honour for Pakistan to cheer their ancestors brutally killed/raped and converted by invaders.Pakistan is such a gem.Thats the reason Pakistan is having identity crisis.

Nothing new again. In the same manner dead bodies of Indian soldier were also returned to India. Sq ldr Ajay Ahuja is one such example.

Nothing new??? Yeah perhaps disowing their own soldiers is nothing new for Pakistan.

But we didn't refuse to admit the the Indian soldiers but you won't understand this because it needs some bravery and honour which you simply lack.You treated your own soldiers like bunch of coward mercenaries.

 

[AUz]

@AUZ, But you did the same in 65, got Ceasefire, declared victory even you never won, public holiday and censored operation Gibratar from textbooks. Why not same repeated for Kargil. You nation still don't know the names of all dead soldiers unlike 65 or 71.

Dude , what are you on about?

Pakistan celebrates 6th September as "Defense Day" --- It was an official war , wasn't it? Forcing a 7 TIMES larger enemy to sign a STALEMATE is seen as "victory" all over the world.... For your clarification : Israel signed "stalemates" with Arabs , but we never refer them as such...because when a small country forces many times larger enemy to sign "stalemate" , it is called as victory.

So we don't brainwash our people (like in india) .... We officially celebrate it as "defense day" , and see it as victory...

Kargil was not any official war..it was a prolonged skirmish...

And our nation DO know the names of brave dead soldiers in Kargil war...it is only you indians who are brainwashed into believing otherwise...

 

[swathi]

rediff.com: The Rediff Interview/ General Ved Prakash Malik (retd)

point 5353 was never occupied by India. here is an interview with ved pradish malik.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Dude , what are you on about?

Pakistan celebrates 6th September as "Defense Day" --- It was an official war , wasn't it? Forcing a 7 TIMES larger enemy to sign a STALEMATE is seen as "victory" all over the world.... For your clarification : Israel signed "stalemates" with Arabs , but we never refer them as such...because when a small country forces many times larger enemy to sign "stalemate" , it is called as victory.

So we don't brainwash our people (like in india) .... We officially celebrate it as "defense day" , and see it as victory...

Kargil was not any official war..it was a prolonged skirmish...

And our nation DO know the names of brave dead soldiers in Kargil war...it is only you indians who are brainwashed into believing otherwise...

Stalemate Oh Man...... you make me laugh when you people come with misguided history taught by your army to save its reputation in your eyes.

65 War Aug-23 Sept.

India Lost :540 km2 (210 mi2) of territory lost (primarily in Rann of Kutch)
PAK Lost : Over 1,840 km2 (710 mi2) of territory lost (primarily in Sialkot, Lahore, and Kashmir sectors)

If this is you called stalemate ...... ?

 

[AUz]

I dont know what you at happy at?

That India didn't bother to take back Pt. 5353 a indian army consider this peak is low in objective and that peak is clearly visible from tiger Hill and can be taken down any time.

Oh meray bholay badshaho , who tell you these fairy tales? Its funny that teenage indians make up stories as they go along...and we Pakistanis have to clear them up...Chalo anyways ..let cut your post ...are you ready?

Indian Army DID try to take back point 5353 MANY TIMES...but it failed..so it just gave up.... Point 5353 is the highest point in Drass Sector and is located beyond Tiger Hill...and it is easier to take down Tiger Hill from there than vice versa...Are you even familiar with the geography of that area? I bet not.

Its not only point 5353 , but other two or three indian posts too..that are under Pakistani control due to our victory at Kargil..

Indian Govt. go by Army and local Commander advise that Pt5353 didn't serve ant strategic objective as from Tiger hill we can control the entire area and from Pt 5353 the visibility is also not good so it wont serve any strategic objective to pak. Moreover concentrate on gain area.

See above ....

Kargil War Celebration done because out many peaks PAk captured we liberated them especially Tiger Hill.

Dude , no one denies that you liberated some peaks (thanks to IAF) ...but we STILL KEPT your indian strategic posts...so hows that a victory? Suppose India capture 10 places in Pakistan...Pakistan Army counter-attacks and win back 6 of them..at the end of the war..India KEEPS 4 PAKISTANI places under its control...Would we call that a Pakistani victory? LOL. Now reverse that and it is exactly what happened at Kargil war...

Pakistan won militarily , india only won in screen (from Brain Claughley's article..A neutral military expert observing Kargil) ...

where dose it says PAK army says that it control that pass?

So you need "proof" that Gyong La is under Pakistani control? Yar you don't know the geographical facts of LoC..so please quit it... or even ask YOUR Army officers or professionals on this forum that who controls Gyong La pass at Siachen? ...

 

[INDIC]

So we don't brainwash our people (like in india) .... We officially celebrate it as "defense day" , and see it as victory...

Kargil was not any official war..it was a prolonged skirmish...

And our nation DO know the names of brave dead soldiers in Kargil war...it is only you indians who are brainwashed into believing otherwise...

I want to know the name of all dead soldiers of Kargil to get rid of confusion that Nawaz Sharif's figure is correct or Parvez Musharraf's figure is correct.

Dude , what are you on about?

Pakistan celebrates 6th September as "Defense Day" --- It was an official war , wasn't it? Forcing a 7 TIMES larger enemy to sign a STALEMATE is seen as "victory" all over the world.... For your clarification : Israel signed "stalemates" with Arabs , but we never refer them as such...because when a small country forces many times larger enemy to sign "stalemate" , it is called as victory.

Israel occupied areas more than the size of their country(Gaza Strip, Golan heights, Sinai, West Bank) without loosing a single inch of land, how was that a stalemate. Calling 65 a victory even after failure of Operation Gibraltar is a joke.

 

[AUz]

rediff.com: The Rediff Interview/ General Ved Prakash Malik (retd)

point 5353 was never occupied by India. here is an interview with ved pradish malik.

Oh baba this link has already been debunked again and again by me and others on this very forum! You guys just Google something to put in 'defence' and save your face...

This news came in 2001! but in 2004 , it was CONFIRMED that 5353 was INDEED an Indian post which Indian troops knew to be THEIRS! Please read Tehelka magazine's report on this whole issue...Your source is from 2001 , Tehelka news came out and debunked this source in 2004...and even in 2009 , it was confirmed and indian authorities tried to mislead its people...5353 was Indian Strategic Post overlooking Indian supplies...and Pakistan overlooks Indian supplies

Stalemate Oh Man...... you make me laugh when you people come with misguided history taught by your army to save its reputation in your eyes.

65 War Aug-23 Sept.

India Lost :540 km2 (210 mi2) of territory lost (primarily in Rann of Kutch)
PAK Lost : Over 1,840 km2 (710 mi2) of territory lost (primarily in Sialkot, Lahore, and Kashmir sectors)

If this is you called stalemate ...... ?

Brainwashed indians quoting wikipedia?

Buddy , your knowledge in military matters is very weak...read up on some books! Wikipedia is trash ....indians edit it all the time..then Pakistanis ...then indians etc..Everyone knows that!

BTW , India never accepted that Pakistan captured Munabao railway station ...BUT...now we have PICTURES of Pakistan Army standing ON the Munabao railway station...your wiki doesn't include all that huge chunk of land in Pakistani gain...afterall, it is edited by Indians...

But please don't bring it here..its not 1965 thread...STALEMATE was signed at Tashkant! Period. Look at the document..huh..Even Indian press saw this as "defeat" and protests broke out in India..remember the heart attack of your PM who signed Tashkant Stalemate document?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Indian Army DID try to take back point 5353 MANY TIMES...but it failed..so it just gave up.... Point 5353 is the highest point in Drass Sector and is located beyond Tiger Hill...and it is easier to take down Tiger Hill from there than vice versa...Are you even familiar with the geography of that area? I bet not.

Last we checked point 5353 was surrounded by 3 Indian posts.

Its not only point 5353 , but other two or three indian posts too..that are under Pakistani control due to our victory at Kargil..

Can you name those 2 or 3 posts.

Dude , no one denies that you liberated some peaks (thanks to IAF) ...but we STILL KEPT your indian strategic posts...so hows that a victory?

I think there was clarification given that point 5353 lies near to LOC hence usually are abandoned by both sides.

Suppose India capture 10 places in Pakistan...Pakistan Army counter-attacks and win back 6 of them..at the end of the war..India KEEPS 4 PAKISTANI places under its control...Would we call that a Pakistani victory? LOL. Now reverse that and it is exactly what happened at Kargil war...

Victory can be defined based on the objectives or goal.

So what was Kargil all about? What was the goal or objective of this undeclared war?

Pakistan won militarily , india only won in screen (from Brain Claughley's article..A neutral military expert observing Kargil) ...

How do call this a tactical victory for Pakistan? since neither Kargil nor Siachen ever came to Pakistan's hands in the first place.

A couple of the post on Kargil side taken by Pakistan were actually abandoned during winter as per agreement which your side violated.

 

[IND151]

^^ indeed

point 5353 is surrounded by 2 to 3 peaks under Indian control

 

[AUz]

I want to know the name of all dead soldiers of Kargil to get rid of confusion that Nawaz Sharif's figure is correct or Parvez Musharraf's figure is correct.

Go to Pakistan Army's official website...

There you'll find 450 or so soldiers' name, rank , position , death date etc everything...It came out in 2010 I guess or 2011 (not sure) .... +- 20 , 30 men is possible...like suppose 460 soldiers died but we don't have any record of the lost 10..it is quite normal....we all know that ..it happens in war...BUT...to say that 4000 soldiers died is a joke! How on Earth 4000 soldiers can be deployed on few hill tops? it is NOT possible...not to mention their equipment , logistics , ammunation etc...

Itna space hota hai mountain top pe? Specially Kashmiri mountains (thin peak) ...Nawaz didn't even know that Kargil was happening...he would know the military ground situation there? han? We all know he just did political bakwaas due to his personal grudges with Mushy ....

Israel occupied areas more than the size of their country(Gaza Strip, Golan heights, Sinai, West Bank) without loosing a single inch of land, how was that a stalemate. Calling 65 a victory even after failure of Operation Gibraltar is a joke.

YET , they signed a "stalemate" ...that was my point....forcing TEN TIMES bigger nation to sign a "stalemate" is always victory...

BTW , 1965 war started AFTER Gibaltor..with Indian invasion of Lahore (which was repulsed) .... So failure of Gibaltor doesn't even translate into failure of 65' ......

Last we checked point 5353 was surrounded by 3 Indian posts.

Surrounded by LOWER posts .... a difference

Can you name those 2 or 3 posts.

Dalu Nag , Saddle Ridge , Bunker Ridge , Point 5353 ..etc ...

I think there was clarification given that point 5353 lies near to LOC hence usually are abandoned by both sides.

And subsequently was proven to be wrong in 2004 report....AND..in 2009 report! To quote the exact words of Tehelka report " Indians knew these posts to be unquestionably THEIRS" ...

Anyways ...I'm off now...

Kal ko baki ki baat hogi...

Its almost Sehri time here

 

[GoodBoy]

Oh baba this link has already been debunked again and again by me and others on this very forum! You guys just Google something to put in 'defence' and save your face...

This news came in 2001! but in 2004 , it was CONFIRMED that 5353 was INDEED an Indian post which Indian troops knew to be THEIRS! Please read Tehelka magazine's report on this whole issue...Your source is from 2001 , Tehelka news came out and debunked this source in 2004...and even in 2009 , it was confirmed and indian authorities tried to mislead its people...5353 was Indian Strategic Post overlooking Indian supplies...and Pakistan overlooks Indian supplies

Brainwashed indians quoting wikipedia?
Buddy , your knowledge in military matters is very weak...read up on some books! Wikipedia is trash ....indians edit it all the time..then Pakistanis ...then indians etc..Everyone knows that!

BTW , India never accepted that Pakistan captured Munabao railway station ...BUT...now we have PICTURES of Pakistan Army standing ON the Munabao railway station...your wiki doesn't include all that huge chunk of land in Pakistani gain...afterall, it is edited by Indians...

But please don't bring it here..its not 1965 thread...STALEMATE was signed at Tashkant! Period. Look at the document..huh..Even Indian press saw this as "defeat" and protests broke out in India..remember the heart attack of your PM who signed Tashkant Stalemate document?

So 5353 which is on the LoC is with Pakistan and it's a victory???

After losing 4000 soldiers Pakistanis keep jumping and blaberring about this one all the time which Indian army didn't show much intrest later on.It's like being like getting punched 100 times in a boxing match face badly and jumping saying that they gave 1 punch also.

Pakistanis have become a child about 5353 "Dekha dekha maine bhi ek mara tha"
Guys this is becoming hilarious as Pakistanis are making a joke of themselves about 5353.

On topic... why don't you try to take something like TigerHill/Tololing etc if your superior super dooper trooper "never gives up" army is so brave?

Pakistan should definitely try again

 

[K-Xeroid]

I dont know what you at happy at?

That India didn't bother to take back Pt. 5353 a indian army consider this peak is low in objective and that peak is clearly visible from tiger Hill and can be taken down any time.

Now thats called a self satisfactory statement to hide your losses , India had made attempts to recapturing it during Kargil but due heavy losses it suffered they just given up it in the end, If it was useless then Indian army would had never tried any attempt.

Indian Govt. go by Army and local Commander advise that Pt5353 didn't serve ant strategic objective as from Tiger hill we can control the entire area and from Pt 5353 the visibility is also not good so it wont serve any strategic objective to pak. Moreover concentrate on gain area.

Point 5353 is serving as an stragtegic position where our forces can easily Target NH(1D) ,A major route which connects LeH with Srinagar, and probably enough to slow down supplies for your forces at Kargil ,Drass Sector. 1999 was a small scale conflict and NLI wasn't a fully involved in it, Most of them were providing logistical backup to the soldiers on hieghts so no need of targeting at then but now we obtain it officially and indians have given up So we also have opportunity and advantage. As far as visibilty concerns then our soldiers have enough equipments to observe at things beyond their visual range. Not an issue at all.

Celebration done because out many peaks PAk captured we liberated them especially Tiger Hill.

Most of peaks? during conflict you just gained 5060 ,5100 and 4590 (The Tiger hill) , and yea! about 4590
"The recapture of Point 4590 by Indian troops on June 14 was significant, notwithstanding the fact that it resulted in the Indian Army suffering the most casualties in a single battle during the conflict" Source WikiPedia
Rest of position you gained after Clinton's Pullout call. you better award him a Vir Chakra or watever.

They also PAK hide report on Kargil, which will expose their Army and its real loses . that why you army ashamed to published report. (PAK Army)

Blah ! A claim which is even not worth of discussion.

 

[INDIC]

Go to Pakistan Army's official website...

There you'll find 450 or so soldiers' name, rank , position , death date etc everything...It came out in 2010 I guess or 2011 (not sure) .... +- 20 , 30 men is possible...like suppose 460 soldiers died but we don't have any record of the lost 10..it is quite normal....we all know that ..it happens in war...BUT...to say that 4000 soldiers died is a joke! How on Earth 4000 soldiers can be deployed on few hill tops? it is NOT possible...not to mention their equipment , logistics , ammunation etc.

LOL. When India can deploy thousands of soldiers, why can't thousand of Pakistani soldiers infiltrate. Can you show me the link of those dead soldiers.

YET , they signed a "stalemate" ...that was my point....forcing TEN TIMES bigger nation to sign a "stalemate" is always victory...

BTW , 1965 war started AFTER Gibaltor..with Indian invasion of Lahore (which was repulsed) .... So failure of Gibaltor doesn't even translate into failure of 65' ......

I can't understand your logic. Indian army failed Operation Gibraltar by attacking Lahore and ended in possession of more land area, our government never declared a victory for that as well as public holiday.

Dalu Nag , Saddle Ridge , Bunker Ridge , Point 5353 ..etc ...

I was following the news everyday in 1999 and Indian army was always saying it is the tiger hills that matters most for us.

Point 5353 is on LOC, doesn't matter much for us. It just a breath of air for Pakistanis to emphasis a lot on point 5353 after the debacle.