PAK-FA pulls out of Korean FX3 contest.

[Korean]

Russia pulls out of Korea fighter project <img src=http://110.45.173.104/www/news/images/ic_korean.gif>

Russia pulls out of Korea fighter project
Sweden mulls taking part in FX-III race with Gripen

By Lee Tae-hoon

Russia will not enter Korea’s advanced jet acquisition project as none of its aircraft manufacturers including Sukhoi expressed their intent to join the heated competition, officials here said.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) listed Sukhoi’s T-50 PAK-FA in July last year as one of the four contenders to have expressed an interest in joining the open bidding worth 8.29 trillion won ($7.3 billion) along with Boeing, Lockheed Martin and the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS).

``No Russian firm submitted an application to attend the program’s explanatory session, which was a prerequisite to participate, by the Friday registration deadline,” a spokesman of DAPA said.

He noted that a representative from Swedish company Saab, which has been searching for additional export orders for its Gripen multirole fighters, successfully filed an application for the mandatory session along with Boeing, Lockheed Martine and EADS.

“It is too early to tell whether Saab is serious about joining the race, or the European company will be attending the session out of curiosity and have a peek at Korea’s demands,” a senior DAPA official said.

Meanwhile, Shin Myung-ho, a representative from Saab, confirmed his company has yet to make a decision on whether to compete with the two U.S. defense giants and the European consortium.

“To my understanding, Saab will discuss possible participation in FX-III after receiving the RFP,” he said. “It will, however, take a while before Saab makes any official announcement about its next move on Korea’s jet acquisition bid.”

Korea has purchased 60 F-15s from Boeing, which won both the FX-I and II projects in 2002 and 2008.

Seoul eliminated two key compulsory requirements initially set for FX-III in an attempt to allow more companies to enter the competition for the nation’s largest-ever arms deal.

PAK-FA is out.
Gripen NG is knocking on the door instead.

Two key compulsory requirements are twin-engine and stealth. This prompted Saab to mull an entry into the contest, as the current requirement doc heavily favors EADS Typhoon.

 

[illusion8]

^^^ How many is SK planning to buy in the third phase?

 

[TalkToMe:D]

Typhoon is not a stealth fighter correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Korean]

^^^ How many is SK planning to buy in the third phase?

60~62.

It currently looks like a Typhoon vs Silent Eagle contest(The requirement doc heavily favors Typhoon), as the contest devolved from "Let's buy twin-engine full stealth A2A fighter jet" into "We will buy the jet model from whoever is selected as KFX partner as a reverse offset compensation since there is nothing good to buy".

This is why EADS and Boeing were showing off their "visions" of KFXs to the press at Seoul air show, while Lockheed Martin showed nothing and had no plan to take a part in KFX project. This is why Saab feels they can compete now based on the strength of their P306 KFX proposal.

 

[Mosamania]

Typhoon is not a stealth fighter correct me if I am wrong.

No it's not. But the Typhoon 2020 is said to incorporate stealth technology. That and it also has the lowest cross radar section of all non-stealth fighters in the world today. Which also means it has the second lowest CRS in operation currently.

 

[Korean]

Typhoon is not a stealth fighter correct me if I am wrong.

And the stealth requirement were struck out and no longer considered.

Korean defense department has given upon buying the stealth fighter of their liking(F-22 class); they decided that the only stealth fighter that would satisfy their requirement is the one they build themselves, and they would buy the jet of whoever is best suited to help them out.

 

[TalkToMe:D]

No it's not. But the Typhoon 2020 is said to incorporate stealth technology. That and it also has the lowest cross radar section of all non-stealth fighters in the world today. Which also means it has the second lowest CRS in operation currently.

Typhoon 2020 is a news to me can you please enlighten me a little bit please, thanks.

 

[Tshering22]

US pressure playing very well in Seoul's top echelons. Nothing more than that. US figured that a Russian 5th generation jet would be strategically too high a hand so Russians got "eliminated". Just like the Japanese suddenly decided that F-35 was the jet they wanted all this long.

 

[Tshering22]

And the stealth requirement were struck out and no longer considered.

Korean defense department has given upon buying the stealth fighter of their liking(F-22 class); they decided that the only stealth fighter that would satisfy their requirement is the one they build themselves, and they would buy the jet of whoever is best suited to help them out.

So Korea decided to build a 5th gen jet themselves? I know Indonesia is a partner with you folks on this project but do you guys have any idea how expensive 5th generation jet development is going to be? Even if ROKAF plans to induct 100-150 jets of the type and Indonesia plans 50-100, the cost distribution will need to be spread across a larger spectrum of nations to realize it. Otherwise it would become like the K-2 tank which is today the most expensive battle tank on the planet.

I don't mean to be negative but Korea won't find it easy with US pressing F-35 sales everywhere around the world, even if you are willing to export 5th gen jets around the world market.

 

[Mosamania]

Typhoon 2020 is a news to me can you please enlighten me a little bit please, thanks.

 

[Korean]

Just like the Japanese suddenly decided that F-35 was the jet they wanted all this long.

Korea isn't Japan.

Unlike Japan, Korea had said no to the US in the past for deals it didn't like. The most notorious case is the US pressure to participate in the Missile Defense. Japan gave in to the US pressure and joined, Korea said no and decided to build its own ballistic missile defense network. Another case is the Global Hawk Block 30. The US pressured Korea to be its launch customer for years but Korea refused, citing its high price and the lack of operational freedom. And a few days ago the USAF announced the death of Global Hawk Block 30, because they failed to sign Korea to be its launch customer.

So Korea decided to build a 5th gen jet themselves? I know Indonesia is a partner with you folks on this project but do you guys have any idea how expensive 5th generation jet development is going to be?

It cost much more to import and operate F-35, not to mention that F-35 doesn't mean ROKAF's operational requirement, which places supercruise and the ability to engage/disengage in supersonic speed at the highest order.

Even if ROKAF plans to induct 100-150 jets of the type

250. They plan to replace F-4, F-5, and F-16 with KFX. They need to maintain a fighter fleet of 430 at the very minimum because of Korea's geographic location.

Current ROKAF combat jet fleet plan in 2020s

F-15K : 60
FX3 winner : 60
KFX : 250
FA-50 : 60
===========
Total : 430

and Indonesia plans 50-100

50.

Otherwise it would become like the K-2 tank which is today the most expensive battle tank on the planet.

And the most capable. So it's the money well spent as long as the money buys best equipment.

I don't mean to be negative but Korea won't find it easy with US pressing F-35 sales everywhere around the world

This is why Korean government is seeking out partner nations, to ensure a minimum volume of at least 375 units at the beginning of project, excluding any export.

It has been Turkey that was negotiating to be the second partner nation, and Saab's proposal is that Sweden would join up to be the partner nation. Saab's P306 proposal(What Saab offered to India was P305, the single engine version) came with an offer that Sweden would take 10% of the output and make P306 KFX the Sweden's new flagship fighter. What Saab/Swedish government are expected to propose is for Sweden to increase that to 20% of the output.

 

[BordoEnes]

God i love S Korea, Truelly a great nation

Really hope we can make an agreement on KFX issue.

Beside that i think the F15SE is most likely the winner duo the fact the ROKAF already has experience with F15s.

 

[Tshering22]

Korea isn't Japan.

Unlike Japan, Korea had said no to the US in the past for deals it didn't like. The most notorious case is the US pressure to participate in the Missile Defense. Japan gave in to the US pressure and joined, Korea said no and decided to build its own ballistic missile defense network. Another case is the Global Hawk Block 30. The US pressured Korea to be its launch customer for years but Korea refused, citing its high price and the lack of operational freedom. And a few days ago the USAF announced the death of Global Hawk Block 30, because they failed to sign Korea to be its launch customer.


It cost much more to import and operate F-35, not to mention that F-35 doesn't mean ROKAF's operational requirement, which places supercruise and the ability to engage/disengage in supersonic speed at the highest order.

Wow I never knew that. Thanks for clearing.

250. They plan to replace F-4, F-5, and F-16 with KFX. They need to maintain a fighter fleet of 430 at the very minimum because of Korea's geographic location.

That's a good number. But this KFX, would it be a 5th gen jet? Because it would take at least a decade to come into production level and till then you will have to make do with F-4 and F-5s while F-16s are still relatively new.

Current ROKAF combat jet fleet plan in 2020s

F-15K : 60
FX3 winner : 60
KFX : 250
FA-50 : 60
===========
Total : 430

That's a good enough number. KFX would make you much more self-reliant than Japanese currently are.

50.

That would be a quantum leap considering that Indonesia maintains only about a dozen or so high-end fighters.

And the most capable. So it's the money well spent as long as the money buys best equipment.


This is why Korean government is seeking out partner nations, to ensure a minimum volume of at least 375 units at the beginning of project, excluding any export.

It has been Turkey that was negotiating to be the second partner nation, and Saab's proposal is that Sweden would join up to be the partner nation. Saab's P306 proposal(What Saab offered to India was P305, the single engine version) came with an offer that Sweden would take 10% of the output and make P306 KFX the Sweden's new flagship fighter. What Saab/Swedish government are expected to propose is for Sweden to increase that to 20% of the output.

But consider the operating costs that you would have to incur in a full blown armored war. DPRK has tanks that are much cheaper and disposable (considering that DPRK government considers even their citizens as disposable). While K-2 may be one of the top end tanks on earth, its costs of operating managing and in case of losses, would be very high compared to that of your enemies.

If Turkey and Sweden do become your partners, then it is possible to take the numbers to at least 600 tanks. That would not only break-even your production but also put the prospects of exporting the tank to third countries.

 

[Korean]

But this KFX, would it be a 5th gen jet?

Initially no. It will have the shape of a stealth aircraft and an internal weapons bay, but it won't be declared a full stealth aircraft because of radio signal emissions control issue which will take time. Batch 2 will be entering production around 2028 after the batch 1 units are delivered, which will have missing technology and declared a full stealth aircraft and the earlier Batch 1 will be upgraded to Batch 2 standard.

This way, you can put the first unit in combat role as early as 2021, because the Korean government isn't waiting for all the techs of KFX to be completed in time.

But consider the operating costs that you would have to incur in a full blown armored war. DPRK has tanks that are much cheaper and disposable

Most of NK's tanks and armored vehicles will be taken out from the air.

its costs of operating managing and in case of losses, would be very high compared to that of your enemies.

K-2's design objective is to reach the Yalu-River in 7 days to leave no time for Chinese intervention. "Time to reach the Yalu river" matters more than the operating cost. Beside, K-2 is a local design with a local parts supply chain, so there is no concern for its operating cost.

The current Korean military arms build-up plan assumes battling 1 million PLA troops, not North Koreans. The current ROKAF's firepower is enough to completely suppress North Korean air defense in three days. Then what are the new fighter jets and KFXs for? To shoot down rusty Migs and bomb NK tanks? Nope. They are meant for China.

If Turkey and Sweden do become your partners, then it is possible to take the numbers to at least 600 tanks. That would not only break-even your production

The break-even is 300. But you are right that it is extremely critical to secure the economy of scale, in order for KFX to avoid sharing the fate of Rafale and F-2. When the economy of scale is achieved from the beginning, then you can make aggressive bids which in turn further lowers your cost through increased volume.

 

[iajj]

lol, if k-2's didn't experience the same spectacular failures that characterized bonzi's space and other military programs and did reach yalu river in seven days, it would find itself awkwardly wedged between the province of jilin and the province of chaoxian by then.

but i digressed - what i actually wanted to say is: k-2 crew and their vehicles are welcome to join the chengguan teams in shanghai