PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[karan.1970]

16-18 more coming as well as the 30 or more embargoed ones.
It will be over a 100 at minimum( as of the near future).

I remember in April the talk of 18 F 16's blk 52 to be delivered till december. How many of them have already made it so far?

 

[kingdurgaking]

As one of the TT member in his post said that SAMs are the first causality of war...Specially after the new anti radiation missiles.

India always enjoyed teh numeric superiority. We ever denied that.

So when it is destroyed or before it is getting destoryed isnt enough to alarm our Fighters to get on airbone?.. so your earlier advantage of taking the fighters from the base will be totally gone and our fighters will be scrambled to face you now.. which is more dangerous for your fighters that the one at base .. which will put you on disadvantage position right?...

Alrite...Lets for a min assume this is the list you'll have. and assuming that they are in complete awacs network with ground and all. Perfect data communication scenario. But thats how the future war are going to be buddy. Things wont be changed on other side too. And before attacking or defending we'll know how thing are going to be. the AWACS the fighter teh data link.

FYI, I have given the same assumption to PAF also.. its a Known secret for PAF... Only defending will not work.. PAF have to do strike first effectively before returning to defending IAF fighters.. You can check your history how they managed to do all the kills... There is no way PAF can rely on only defending our aggression.. This strategy will fail miserably for PAF and you will inturn resort to activating your nukes

Yup 80 F 16s ordered as in 2010 and you are talking about 2017 aren't you. 40 above for MLU and other block 52.

So far till date you have ordered 80 F16 to take your total count to 120?.. this is a news for me... As far i know.. PAF ordered 18 first and 18 latter total 36 and you had 40 so total around 80.. hmmm which means i have missed the other 40 or it is your guess 40 will be ordered.. if so are this also Block 52?

JFT are going at rate of 2 Per month or 24 p/a. so right now we have 1 squadron of JFT plus starting from 2010 we'll be having all of the 150 JFT operational in 2017.
JFT will be taking over old f7 and A5s so i dont think F7s will be operational or will see fight. Plus F7 is no where a 2 gen aircraft. I wished you'd use more brain before writing such thing.

That is why i have mentioned 150.. As far as the information China has given 150 on soft loans.. or it has given more kya?

So tell me the Aircrafts i mentioned above how are they 40 % NOT BVR and cannot channel with AWACS. F16s just attended Red Flag. JFT is BVR plus have data link capable. J10 do i need to talk about it too.

If you have phased out F-7 with JF17 and still you have equal no of Mirages (which i forgot to mention) which will not be BVR capable.. Any way your squadron strength remains the same..

Plus the A2A refueling will enhance PAF capability to stay in air more without need of landing and refueling.

Yes it will enhance... but Mid air refueling is not going to help when in war with India as most of the fighters will not have to travel 1000 miles to bomb.. Where as Mid air refueling will be useful for IAF because MKI's deployed in Andaman and other far east base can be put into action and they can go back to there base after there sortie is done....

Wasn't that how it was all the time.

Yes during 60-90's these bases are safe because there is no suitable A2G missile but now both of us posses the capability and for IAF it is just 30 but for PAF it is more than 100 to bomb.. which will be very difficult to PAF... which was my argument...


So as per my logic no way you can bridge the gap even with all the future inventory that you have ordered(I mean so far you have only ordered no predictions) with time moves on there will be more technology and numerical gap with IAF even you have ordered J-xx or F-35....

P.S i am open for good discussion.. nd no .. I hope what ever i said is logical and you can disagree by putting your suitable argument

 

[kingdurgaking]

Watever pal... the bottom line is u still had more air crafts, more fire power and better Tech,..... u know the rest (wat happened to IAF)..

That is what dear i told you in my earlier argument.. During those war both Air force possessed same generation Aircraft with +- advantage on both side ... right now it is not the case .. I hope you understood my point

Ur mig 27s,mig 21s and jaguars are obsolete are going to be phased out..

2) MRCA i wont bet on it....

I havent mentioned Mig 27's at all as they are mostly deployed in Eastern command... but Mig bisons and Mig 21 will be phased out by Tejas-2 ... And you don't need to worry about MMRCA has things have come so long .. If india cancels it will loose the global image .. I can expect atleast 5 Squad by 2017 but eventually i have specified only 2 squad hoping it will be deployed in western command

16-18 more coming as well as the 30 or more embargoed ones.
It will be over a 100 at minimum( as of the near future).

Are you guessing or is it ordered?

JFT BLOCK II will be coming late next year.... the requirement or total planned JFTs are around 250+

You have any source pointing GoP has given ordered for 250 JF17?

All 36 will be present by 2014.... 150 rumoured and planned...still in 3 years u know how much more can be added to the inventory.

yes 36 added... 150 rumored .. so you mean to say all 150 will be in your Air Force by 2017.. will it fall under logical discussion?

Genuis they are BVR capable, new air frames.customised.... also mirage ROSE will stay!

Count again.

it seems all F7 will be replaced by JF17 before 2015 and Your Mirages are not BVR capable as per the specification(i repeat as per specification only).. feel free to prove your point with a link

so i guess still the squadron strength remains same right?

Watever satisfies ur ego and fantasy.

There is no reason for ego buddy.. we are buying Mid air re fuller only for this purpose .. and our IAF chief have pointed this couple of time of what i have mentioned....

And i dont have to expose my ego by expressing the facts.. feel free to disagree

 

[karan.1970]

I remember in April the talk of 18 F 16's blk 52 to be delivered till december. How many of them have already made it so far?

Anyone/???

 

[mjnaushad]

Anyone/???

As far i know the delivery was delayed on PAF request because of the floods...Could have given a bad image when the surrounding are in flood a brand new f16 landing in the base...

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

That is what dear i told you in my earlier argument.. During those war both Air force possessed same generation Aircraft with +- advantage on both side ... right now it is not the case .. I hope you understood my point

Who had numerical superiority as well as technical one?
anyways... lets forget it.

I havent mentioned Mig 27's at all as they are mostly deployed in Eastern command... but Mig bisons and Mig 21 will be phased out by Tejas-2 ... And you don't need to worry about MMRCA has things have come so long .. If india cancels it will loose the global image .. I can expect atleast 5 Squad by 2017 but eventually i have specified only 2 squad hoping it will be deployed in western command

Actually u have.... check ur post.

First get LCA mk-1 operational then think of mk-2.... also do keep in mind how mig 27s and 21s are falling out of the skies and so are ur jaguars... they are obsolete i repeat again... OBSOLETE.

Are you guessing or is it ordered?

18 more are comming as per ACM and out of the embargoed some 14 have returned rest will also be returned.
Thts why they are thinking of buying a Air refueller for F-16s.

You have any source pointing GoP has given ordered for 250 JF17?

It has been reported a hundred times... by alot of websites... care to search?

yes 36 added... 150 rumored .. so you mean to say all 150 will be in your Air Force by 2017.. will it fall under logical discussion?

Rumored by all defence sites for examle asian defence,kanwa,janes kempur etc.... not all 150 but aleast 80-100+ dont u think?

it seems all F7 will be replaced by JF17 before 2015 and Your Mirages are not BVR capable as per the specification(i repeat as per specification only).. feel free to prove your point with a link

F-7s arent going anywhere coz most of them were purchased in the late 90s when Pakistan was embargoed..... its the A-5s tht are getting phased out as of now.

And yes Mirages which were Upgraded with ROSE Prog... are BVR capable and so are F-7Ps.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-6.html

Try brahmos.... and we will be sitting there just watching right?

Try babur,Raad and other babies....

 

[mjnaushad]

..

So when it is destroyed or before it is getting destoryed isnt enough to alarm our Fighters to get on airbone?.. so your earlier advantage of taking the fighters from the base will be totally gone and our fighters will be scrambled to face you now.. which is more dangerous for your fighters that the one at base .. which will put you on disadvantage position right?...

Yup we'll fire Anti Radiation and then wait 2 hours and then attack

FYI, I have given the same assumption to PAF also.. its a Known secret for PAF... Only defending will not work.. PAF have to do strike first effectively before returning to defending IAF fighters.. You can check your history how they managed to do all the kills... There is no way PAF can rely on only defending our aggression.. This strategy will fail miserably for PAF and you will inturn resort to activating your nukes

Fan boy stuff...We'll be sitting ducks and will miserably fail...Ok let it be this way.

So far till date you have ordered 80 F16 to take your total count to 120?.. this is a news for me... As far i know.. PAF ordered 18 first and 18 latter total 36 and you had 40 so total around 80.. hmmm which means i have missed the other 40 or it is your guess 40 will be ordered.. if so are this also Block 52?

When i said on order. i meant 40+ for MLU ordered and are in up gradation process and new F16s. I hope i clear my point now.

That is why i have mentioned 150.. As far as the information China has given 150 on soft loans.. or it has given more kya?

Source please....
2ndly even if this the case which i doubt. All matters is that they fly when needed.

So you say you are here for discussion still brought something out of the blue.

Yeah you are not here to flame.

If you have phased out F-7 with JF17 and still you have equal no of Mirages (which i forgot to mention) which will not be BVR capable.. Any way your squadron strength remains the same..

On which ground you are saying Mirages are not BVR capable

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/64160-could-f-7p-pgs-even-mirages-upgrade-bvr-2.html

Yes it will enhance... but Mid air refueling is not going to help when in war with India as most of the fighters will not have to travel 1000 miles to bomb.. Where as Mid air refueling will be useful for IAF because MKI's deployed in Andaman and other far east base can be put into action and they can go back to there base after there sortie is done....

And yes PAF is stupid to waste million on A2A refueling ACs.

Yes during 60-90's these bases are safe because there is no suitable A2G missile but now both of us posses the capability and for IAF it is just 30 but for PAF it is more than 100 to bomb.. which will be very difficult to PAF... which was my argument...

Yes..>Those which we cant bomb is going to face the fighters in the air...Thats what fighters are for.

So as per my logic no way you can bridge the gap even with all the future inventory that you have ordered(I mean so far you have only ordered no predictions) with time moves on there will be more technology and numerical gap with IAF even you have ordered J-xx or F-35....

I think most in the world think their air force is better than their rivals. And if war broke out they will do a clean sweep. But history have proven false. I think you should roam around more on PDF and get to know even with low resources PAF won the air wars.

 

[Areesh]

That is what dear i told you in my earlier argument.. During those war both Air force possessed same generation Aircraft with +- advantage on both side ... right now it is not the case .. I hope you understood my point

So according to you this is better

Than this...

And this...

Lolzzz.

 

[kingdurgaking]

So according to you this is better

Than this...

And this...

Lolzzz.

I was talking about generations and not which is superior.. And Mig 21 was widely used in 1971 and you saw the outcome of it.. and you had similar Mirage 3 aircraft at that time... Oke let me explain argument further .. Does Mig 21 stand equal against Mirage 3? Yes

But does it against F16? No

 

[lionheart1]

So when it is destroyed or before it is getting destoryed isnt enough to alarm our Fighters to get on airbone?.. so your earlier advantage of taking the fighters from the base will be totally gone and our fighters will be scrambled to face you now.. which is more dangerous for your fighters that the one at base .. which will put you on disadvantage position right?...



FYI, I have given the same assumption to PAF also.. its a Known secret for PAF... Only defending will not work.. PAF have to do strike first effectively before returning to defending IAF fighters.. You can check your history how they managed to do all the kills... There is no way PAF can rely on only defending our aggression.. This strategy will fail miserably for PAF and you will inturn resort to activating your nukes



So far till date you have ordered 80 F16 to take your total count to 120?.. this is a news for me... As far i know.. PAF ordered 18 first and 18 latter total 36 and you had 40 so total around 80.. hmmm which means i have missed the other 40 or it is your guess 40 will be ordered.. if so are this also Block 52?



That is why i have mentioned 150.. As far as the information China has given 150 on soft loans.. or it has given more kya?



If you have phased out F-7 with JF17 and still you have equal no of Mirages (which i forgot to mention) which will not be BVR capable.. Any way your squadron strength remains the same..




Yes it will enhance... but Mid air refueling is not going to help when in war with India as most of the fighters will not have to travel 1000 miles to bomb.. Where as Mid air refueling will be useful for IAF because MKI's deployed in Andaman and other far east base can be put into action and they can go back to there base after there sortie is done....



Yes during 60-90's these bases are safe because there is no suitable A2G missile but now both of us posses the capability and for IAF it is just 30 but for PAF it is more than 100 to bomb.. which will be very difficult to PAF... which was my argument...


So as per my logic no way you can bridge the gap even with all the future inventory that you have ordered(I mean so far you have only ordered no predictions) with time moves on there will be more technology and numerical gap with IAF even you have ordered J-xx or F-35....

P.S i am open for good discussion.. nd no .. I hope what ever i said is logical and you can disagree by putting your suitable argument

why are wasting your time, cant you know is knowledge,according to him we should not count on almost done deal of mmrca, we should count and believe they will have 150 F-16 block 60 .(and america will give clarity of 150 F-16)

 

[TaimiKhan]

850 or so posts and still going on and still not decided what can be the possible answer.

Is it that hard to decide ??

Americans are not gonna sell to us, nor can we afford or want from them.

Same with Europeans, very expensive as well as many other issues.

Russians, out of the question for decades.

French, may be, but difficult as its expensive, as well as no other operator of the rafale or in numbers.

Thus, what is left, the Chinese and the FC-20, custom built with our own requirements, specifications and fully meeting our operational needs.

So, the answer is very simple, FC-20 is the only best and viable option to counter the future MRCA or even the Flankers.

Is it that hard to decide ??

How many would be procured, what should be the balance between fighters or what should be the ratio against IAF, etc etc, are all the answers which will come with time, depending on the condition of different factors. The more the better, simple as that, which needs money and that is the real issue.

 

[softtec]

Who had numerical superiority as well as technical one?
anyways... lets forget it.





Actually u have.... check ur post.

First get LCA mk-1 operational then think of mk-2.... also do keep in mind how mig 27s and 21s are falling out of the skies and so are ur jaguars... they are obsolete i repeat again... OBSOLETE.






18 more are comming as per ACM and out of the embargoed some 14 have returned rest will also be returned.
Thts why they are thinking of buying a Air refueller for F-16s.


It has been reported a hundred times... by alot of websites... care to search?





Rumored by all defence sites for examle asian defence,kanwa,janes kempur etc.... not all 150 but aleast 80-100+ dont u think?







F-7s arent going anywhere coz most of them were purchased in the late 90s when Pakistan was embargoed..... its the A-5s tht are getting phased out as of now.

And yes Mirages which were Upgraded with ROSE Prog... are BVR capable and so are F-7Ps.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44991-capabilities-paf-mirage-3-5-a-6.html

Try brahmos.... and we will be sitting there just watching right?

Try babur,Raad and other babies....

Sir, U r high on emotion.

1) To make u happy LCA mk1 will get IOC in dec and have 40 already in order to be delivered by 2014.
2)Remember US F16s were not even detect these Mig21 Bisons and couldn't even locked it.LOL..Think about what will happen to ur F16s when Bison starts firing R77. Jaguars with latest upgrade getting almost all the top notch western avionics and jammers of MKI.If its obsolete, then what u will say about ur beloved JFT.
3)Till now PAF didn't even place order of initial 36 J10B. I guess(If place order in time) u may get them by 2015.

 

[Jungibaaz]

850 or so posts and still going on and still not decided what can be the possible answer.

Is it that hard to decide ??

Americans are not gonna sell to us, nor can we afford or want from them.

Same with Europeans, very expensive as well as many other issues.

Russians, out of the question for decades.

French, may be, but difficult as its expensive, as well as no other operator of the rafale or in numbers.

Thus, what is left, the Chinese and the FC-20, custom built with our own requirements, specifications and fully meeting our operational needs.

So, the answer is very simple, FC-20 is the only best and viable option to counter the future MRCA or even the Flankers.

Is it that hard to decide ??

I always believed the FC-20 was the best answer to MRCA and the best option for a 4.5gen fighter for PAF.

 

[Areesh]

I was talking about generations and not which is superior.. And Mig 21 was widely used in 1971 and you saw the outcome of it.. and you had similar Mirage 3 aircraft at that time... Oke let me explain argument further .. Does Mig 21 stand equal against Mirage 3? Yes

But does it against F16? No

And how many Mirages PAF had in 1971 comparison to IAF fleet of Mig 21?

Just 24 Mirages!!! Do a research and tell me how many Mig-21 IAF had at the time of 1971 war... You might your answer. By the way IAF performance in 1971 with all this force was average or even less than that. Anyways it is off topic.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I always believed the FC-20 was the best answer to MRCA and the best option for a 4.5gen fighter for PAF.

It is, as said, there is no other option for us. We have experience in lot of fighters, even we can check out some of the latest 4.5 gen fighters, we even have done, nearly all of them. Thus we know what is needed, we can push the Chinese into making as much as possible and have something for ourselves, just like JF-17.