PAF's Dirty Dozen Made IAF Run Like Headless Chicken

[Bossman]

Bhai - war and other things fight mentally/psychology more than physically...

Example - if PAF sabres coming towards then IAF fighter pilots could not that know it was equipped with missiles or without missiles... I would say that indian pilots were brave enough to fight the war against missiles equipped fighter planes.

It was already a win win situation for PAF.. If PAF sabres had missiles and even not then psychology advantage... Because there were no technology available to know that before face to face that sabrse was not equipped with missiles or not..

Do you work for IAF’s Directorate of Making Excuses (DOME)? Most important directorate in the IAF. They have been making excuses since 1959 when the first IAF jet was shot down inside Pakistan.

Let’s have a quick look at look at some of DOME’s great achievements:

1959: Canberra: The altimeter malfunctioned. You send a solo Canberra on a highly important spy mission on Eid day to Pakistan and IAF could not get the altimeter working on such a special mission?

1964: Ouragan: The pilot lost his way. Lost his way 150 miles inside Pakistan? IAF pilots must be very poorly trained.

1965: Surrendered Gnat. The IAF pilot mistook Pasrur airstrip as an IAF base. Did the pilot make a mistake or wet his pants and landed a fully functional and armed aircraft in Pakistan because it had a PAF jet on its six.

1999 Kargil: The Mig 27 crashed due to gun smoke ingestion in the engines because of altitude. Mig27 ceiling is close to 50K feet and in Kargil it was operating at around 15K to 20K or lower when it came in for its straffing run. How could smoke from the gun lead to engine burnout? Guns are designed to operate at any height within the designed operating ceiling unless the Soviets sold you a lemon and the procurement officer assigned to the project was honey trapped by Russian blondes as in some other cases.

2019 Post Balakot: The list is unending and the memory is recent, so I will not repeat all but “If we had Rafales” says a lot. But did that come from the PM’s office along with “radars cannot see through clouds” or from DOME?

Republic Day Parade: Unsafe to fly single engine jets in populated areas. The French fly their M2Ks through the heart of Paris. The US fly F16s through major US cities. Is the real reason a lack of confidence in the maintenance of its aircrafts or a lack of balls?

What you call psychological advantage is in fact a euphemism for lack of balls. IAF always had quantitative and qualitative advantage over PAF, but how come our pilots were never overwhelmed by “psychological advantage”. Post Balakot is the best example.

Let alone Pakistan, what about North Vietnamese Airforce against the USAF and many more such examples. It seems it’s only Indians who suffer from psychological advantage.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Do you work for IAF’s Directorate of Making Excuses (DOME)? Most important directorate in the IAF. They have been making excuses since 1959 when the first IAF jet was shot down inside Pakistan.

Let’s have a quick look at look at some of DOME’s great achievements:

1959: Canberra: The altimeter malfunctioned. You send a solo Canberra on a highly important spy mission on Eid day to Pakistan and IAF could not get the altimeter working on such a special mission?

1964: Ouragan: The pilot lost his way. Lost his way 150 miles inside Pakistan? IAF pilots must be poorly trained.

1965: Surrendered Gnat. The IAF mistook Pasrur airstrip as an IAF base. Did the pilot make a mistake or wet his pants and landed a fully functional and armed aircraft in Pakistan?

1999 Kargil: The plane crashed due to gun smoke ingestion in the engines because of altitude. Mig27 ceiling is close to 50K feet and in Kargil it was operating at around 15K to 20K or lower when it came in for its straffing run. How could smoke from the gun lead to engine burnout?

2019 Post Balakot: The list is unending and the memory is recent, so I will not repeat all but “If we had Rafales” says a lot. But did that come from the PM’s office along with “radars cannot see through clouds”

Republic Day Parade: Unsafe to fly single engine jets in populated areas. The French fly their M2Ks through the heart of Paris. The US fly F16s through major US cities. Is the real reason a lack of confidence in the maintenance of its aircrafts or a lack of balls?

What you call psychological advantage is in fact a euphemism for lack of balls. IAF always had quantitative and qualitative advantage over PAF, but how come our pilots were never overwhelmed by “psychological advantage”. Post Balakot is the best example.

Let alone Pakistan, what about North Vietnamese Airforce against the USAF and many more such examples. It seems it’s only Indian who are suffer from psychological advantage.

PAF was having much better technical advantages over IAF...... Including PAK army were having better TAnks and armed... But still failed to get anything. people are just to deny the facts,

Other things are just excuses to me,.Incidents do happen around the world including with Superpowers. There are many known incidents & just read about it... But they do not make such stories as you making it..

Personally, they were having the best chance to get Kashmir from India before 1971. But, they planned too poorly and misjudged Indian army capabilities.

All technical advantages went to vain....
Patton tanks of the Pakistan Army (PA),
30+ sabre fighters equipped with Sidewinder missile
14 F104 Starfighters - Supersonic + Sidewinder missiles

I can list down others too... IAF (Mig 21 - almost no action because was in the induction process) and the Indian army were technically much behind compared to these war-proven machines at the time.

 

[Bossman]

PAF was having much better technical advantages over IAF...... Including PAK army were having better TAnks and armed... But still failed to get anything. people are just to deny the facts,

Other things are just excuses to me,.Incidents do happen around the world including with Superpowers. There are many known incidents & just read about it... But they do not make such stories as you making it..

Personally, they were having the best chance to get Kashmir from India before 1971. But, they planned too poorly and misjudged Indian army capabilities.

All technical advantages went to vain....

You made a fool out of yourself in the last message about “psychological advantage” now don’t divert the topic. The way you think and write it seems that Pakistan is 7 times bigger than India. My friend it’s the other way round. It seems you yourself is suffering from Pakistan’s psychological advantage over you.

As for the technical advantages you are also wrong. Was the Sabre better than the Hunter? Was the B57 better than the Canberra? We had 12 F104s in 65. You had Mig 21s. Mig 21 was a much better dogfighter than the F104. You had Atolls and we had first generation sidewinders. And any minor technical advantage PAF might have had was negated by overwhelming bigger size of the IAF.

If we had an advantage, it was the training of our pilots and ground crew. Coming back to the topic, the Americans didn’t put Sidewinders on our Chinese F6s, we did it our self. IAF could have used similar imagination, instead of making excuses.

Also you are totally wrong about Pakistan misjudging Indian Army’s capability as they were stopped on all fronts. If Pakistan or I would say General Ayub did anything wrong was to rely on guidance and assurance from the Foreign Office than under Zulfiqar Bhutto that India will not open a second front. Bhutto was a sycophant and had gained Ayub’s confidence and I hold Ayub responsible for surrounding himself with likes of Bhutto. Ultimately Bhutto paid a price for his evil genius or maybe even betrayal so did Indira Ghandi and Mujib.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

You made a fool out of yourself in the last message about “psychological advantage” now don’t divert the topic. The way you think and write it seems that Pakistan is 7 times bigger than India. My friend it’s the other way round.

psychological advantage - always play a bigger role. Read some true stories of a few war histories. HOw psychological was played a major role during the war.

A fighter pilot an aircraft with the only gun against A aircraft that might be equipped with AA Missiles.

Already, Other Opponents will have the advantage over tactics, planning, and psychology.

Pakistan is 7 times bigger than India - now play as a victim? I referred only 1965 war - PAF army and PAF was much technically better equipped than Indian amry\ IAF...

Example - Sabre vs Vampires ....... it is just too much.

Ouragan\Gnat (complete electrical failure on his Gnat while he got separated ) vs F104 Starfighters (Supersonic and armed with AA missiles)--- too much, technically...which you mentioned previously.

 

[Tornado23]

psychological advantage - always play a bigger role. Read some true stories of a few war histories. HOw psychological was played a major role during the war.

A fighter pilot an aircraft with the only gun against A aircraft that might be equipped with AA Missiles.

Already, Other Opponents will have the advantage over tactics, planning, and psychology.

Pakistan is 7 times bigger than India - now play as a victim? I referred only 1965 war - PAF army and PAF was much technically better equipped than Indian amry\ IAF...

Example - Sabre vs Vampires ....... it is just too much.

Ouragan\Gnat vs F104 Starfighters (Supersonic and armed with AA missiles)--- too much, technically...which you mentioned previously.

You had Soviet Surface to Air missiles during the 1965 war

You fielded the british made centurion mk7 which had a 105mm rifled gun capable of firing APDS. Not to mention its stabiliser

Alongside that you had the soviet pt76 and amx 13 light tanks. Pakistan had m24 chaffee light tanks from ww2.

In 1965, i would say that in terms of tech, both Pakistan and India were somewhat on equal terms (if we factor out the SAMs which india had). So you crying Pakistan had the better stuff os just sad. You dont even know about half of the stuff you lot had...and if we go by the CIA as to what they said regarding the 65 war...

 

[Abid123]

PAF was having much better technical advantages over IAF...... Including PAK army were having better TAnks and armed... But still failed to get anything. people are just to deny the facts,

Other things are just excuses to me,.Incidents do happen around the world including with Superpowers. There are many known incidents & just read about it... But they do not make such stories as you making it..

Personally, they were having the best chance to get Kashmir from India before 1971. But, they planned too poorly and misjudged Indian army capabilities.

All technical advantages went to vain....
Patton tanks of the Pakistan Army (PA),
30+ sabre fighters equipped with Sidewinder missile
14 F104 Starfighters - Supersonic + Sidewinder missiles

I can list down others too... IAF (Mig 21 - almost no action because was in the induction process) and the Indian army were technically much behind compared to these war-proven machines at the time.

We could have taken entire IOK in 1962. That little pu$$y Ayub Khan decided not to attack because of fear of losing US/UK support. Pakistan had the perfect opportunity take IOK during the Indo-China war.

 

[PanzerKiel]

You had Soviet Surface to Air missiles during the 1965 war

You fielded the british made centurion mk7 which had a 105mm rifled gun capable of firing APDS. Not to mention its stabiliser

Alongside that you had the soviet pt76 and amx 13 light tanks. Pakistan had m24 chaffee light tanks from ww2.

In 1965, i would say that in terms of tech, both Pakistan and India were somewhat on equal terms (if we factor out the SAMs which india had). So you crying Pakistan had the better stuff os just sad. You dont even know about half of the stuff you lot had...and if we go by the CIA as to what they said regarding the 65 war... View attachment 810883

May i add a bit more.....more important points...

Indian Army was already articulated till Command Level....like GOC WC was Harbaksh Singh......better command articulation meant better utilization of the available combat power on the Indian side...

On the Pakistani side, there was only one Corps HQ (1 Corps), we had no other Corps HQ, which meant all formations were being controlled by GHQ ( a pretty bad situation)

Moreover......
PAF Sabres....a Korean war aircraft (15 yrs old)
F-104....12 in number.....maybe 8-10 serviceable at a time....10 aircraft cannot win a war for anyone.
Sherman tanks (world war 2 tanks (25 yrs old))
Sherman and Patton tanks were no match for the superior firepower of AMX-13 (HVAP) and Centurion.

....and then, we must take into account the OVERALL disparity at the national level....Pakistan vs India......a smaller country against x number of times bigger country...

 

[Tornado23]

May i add a bit more.....more important points...

Indian Army was already articulated till Command Level....like GOC WC was Harbaksh Singh......better command articulation meant better utilization of the available combat power on the Indian side...

On the Pakistani side, there was only one Corps HQ (1 Corps), we had no other Corps HQ, which meant all formations were being controlled by GHQ ( a pretty bad situation)

Moreover......
PAF Sabres....a Korean war aircraft (15 yrs old)
F-104....12 in number.....maybe 8-10 serviceable at a time....10 aircraft cannot win a war for anyone.
Sherman tanks (world war 2 tanks (25 yrs old))
Sherman and Patton tanks were no match for the superior firepower of AMX-13 and Centurion.

....and then, we must take into account the OVERALL disparity at the national level....Pakistan vs India......a smaller country against x number of times bigger country...

Ballistic tests were conducted on the m48 pattons which showed the lower front plate on the hull could be penetrated by the 75mm AP round fired from a AMX 13 light tank.

And here they are crying that the pattons were apparently superior in every way, despite fielding the L7A1 on the cent mk7.

Also its funny you brought up Harbaksh Singh

 

[Bossman]

psychological advantage - always play a bigger role. Read some true stories of a few war histories. HOw psychological was played a major role during the war.

Ouragan\Gnat (complete electrical failure on his Gnat while he got separated ) vs F104 Starfighters (Supersonic and armed with AA missiles)--- too much, technically...which you mentioned previously.

There are ways to overcome psychological advantage. It has many words belief, Espirite de Corp, Jazba etc.

Stop making excuses for the Gnat. There was no such thing. The plane was flow from Pusrur to Sargodha by a PAF pilot who had trained on Gnats while on deputation with RAF, without any trained ground crew to fix any imaginary electrical problems. The plane was fully air worthy. Accept the fact that the IAF pilot chickened out.

By your logic every time a fighter jet is faced with a more formidable enemy, it should simply surrender.

 

[Bossman]

May i add a bit more.....more important points...

Indian Army was already articulated till Command Level....like GOC WC was Harbaksh Singh......better command articulation meant better utilization of the available combat power on the Indian side...

On the Pakistani side, there was only one Corps HQ (1 Corps), we had no other Corps HQ, which meant all formations were being controlled by GHQ ( a pretty bad situation)

Moreover......
PAF Sabres....a Korean war aircraft (15 yrs old)
F-104....12 in number.....maybe 8-10 serviceable at a time....10 aircraft cannot win a war for anyone.
Sherman tanks (world war 2 tanks (25 yrs old))
Sherman and Patton tanks were no match for the superior firepower of AMX-13 (HVAP) and Centurion.

....and then, we must take into account the OVERALL disparity at the national level....Pakistan vs India......a smaller country against x number of times bigger country...

Centurion was considered one of the best tanks in the world at that time as proven by the Israelis two years down the road.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

There are ways to overcome psychological advantage. It has many words belief, Espirite de Corp, Jazba etc.

Stop making excuses for the Gnat. There was no such thing. The plane was flow from Pusrur to Sargodha by a PAF pilot who had trained on Gnats while on deputation with RAF, without any trained ground crew to fix any imaginary electrical problems. The plane was fully air worthy. Accept the fact that the IAF pilot chickened out.

By your logic every time a fighter jet is faced with a more formidable enemy, it should simply surrender.

Again what a supersonic fighter with AA missiles... As I already said, PAF was having technical advantage... A aircraft with only gun ( subsonic speed) and faulty equipments vs supersonic aircraft with missiles..... Nothing much can do.

 

[Tornado23]

Again what a supersonic fighter with AA missiles... As I already said, PAF was having technical advantage... A aircraft with only gun ( subsonic speed) and faulty equipments vs supersonic aircraft with missiles..... Nothing much can do.

Im so glad you said that.

Take Vietnam as a perfect example for what you said.

The US believed the age of gun fights are over in a2a combat. So the F4C phantom II was only really equipped with air to air missiles. By your logic, the F4C, a supersonic fighter jet armed with air to air missiles as its primary and only offensive a2a weapon, should have absolutely dominated in air combat against the North Vietnamese Migs. But to everyones horror, it was the other way around. Sub sonic mig 17 fighter jets were able to shoot down the phantoms en masse, which forced the USAAF to install an external 20mm vulcan gun for air to air combat.

The f104 was not a dogfighter. It didnt have any actual ability to dogfight unlike the f4c. It was an interceptor with lack luster air to air missiles. Good day to you sir. O7

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

May i add a bit more.....more important points...

Indian Army was already articulated till Command Level....like GOC WC was Harbaksh Singh......better command articulation meant better utilization of the available combat power on the Indian side...

On the Pakistani side, there was only one Corps HQ (1 Corps), we had no other Corps HQ, which meant all formations were being controlled by GHQ ( a pretty bad situation)

Moreover......
PAF Sabres....a Korean war aircraft (15 yrs old)
F-104....12 in number.....maybe 8-10 serviceable at a time....10 aircraft cannot win a war for anyone.
Sherman tanks (world war 2 tanks (25 yrs old))
Sherman and Patton tanks were no match for the superior firepower of AMX-13 (HVAP) and Centurion.

....and then, we must take into account the OVERALL disparity at the national level....Pakistan vs India......a smaller country against x number of times bigger country...

Israel can beat 7 seven countries at the same time..

I don't buy the logic. Pakistan was technology best war proven fighter plane at that time and few were equipped with missiles.

Sherman tanks vs Patton tanks
no comparison at all outdated M4 Shermans with latest battle hardest patton tanks. Patton tanks performed well in others war around the world..

 

[Tornado23]

Israel can beat 7 seven countries at the same time..

I don't buy the logic. Pakistan was technology best war proven fighter plane at that time and few were equipped with missiles.

Sherman tanks vs Patton tanks
no comparison at all outdated M4 Shermans with latest battle hardest patton tanks. Patton tanks performed well in others war around the world..

Dude... We literally spelt it out for you. Pakistan did not have a tech advantage over india. Jeez.

Also who the hell is talking about Israel?

As for shermans vs pattons? Are you blind to not see the other tanks you had in your army? Pakistan also had shermans. My God...

As for the pattons usage in other wars. Which wars did it perform well in? Vietnam? It got destroyed by NVA AT weaponry.

 

[SQ8]

PAF was having much better technical advantages over IAF...... Including PAK army were having better TAnks and armed... But still failed to get anything. people are just to deny the facts,

Other things are just excuses to me,.Incidents do happen around the world including with Superpowers. There are many known incidents & just read about it... But they do not make such stories as you making it..

Personally, they were having the best chance to get Kashmir from India before 1971. But, they planned too poorly and misjudged Indian army capabilities.

All technical advantages went to vain....
Patton tanks of the Pakistan Army (PA),
30+ sabre fighters equipped with Sidewinder missile
14 F104 Starfighters - Supersonic + Sidewinder missiles

I can list down others too... IAF (Mig 21 - almost no action because was in the induction process) and the Indian army were technically much behind compared to these war-proven machines at the time.

This BS has been repeated as propoganda to you and you will buy it.

No aircraft in the PAF fleet was “Superior “ to the IAF in 65.
The F-86 was outclassed by the Hunter - both in terms of acceleration and armament. A F-86 pilot had to unload half his .50cal guns to cause a hunter to have critical damage - a process that required the pilot to keep the aircraft in sight for 30 seconds.
The hunter’s 20mm cannon needed a 2 second pot shot and could blow parts of the F-86 off.

The F-104 was outclassed by the Mig-21 in everything except the acceleration and vertical and its myth was all there was.

Both the PAF and IAF operated the Canberra - what superiority?

@HRK @Windjammer This BS from nationalist Indians isnt new. These people will prostitute their own mothers happily before admitting that a Pakistani was better than them.

Even before this war , PAF pilots provided specific training on how to land in Indian airport refuel stops in thick fog would do so flying to and fro from East to West Pakistan while all other flights would be grounded. Even then you know what comment these Indians would give on PAF pilots landing in those conditions?
“The Pakistanis only do this because their aircraft are so superior”

The condescending hatred these people carry in their hearts would melt diamonds if it could be materialized. Its best not to engage or debate with this much vile venom.