Paf Sabotaged The Purchase Of New Aircraft For 30 Years---Open A Case

[RIP Pak LAW]

They wanted India to Buy Su 27 ;
and IAF was confused between Mirage 2000-5 and Su 27

So they offered it to PAF and India came running back to Russia

We told them to develop the Su 27 to Su 30 and then we bought it

Su 27 were never offered to us. I need to see the source.

 

[mikaal hassan]

can we please have all Indians of this thread we don't need your opinions so kindly shut up

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Su 27 were never offered to us. I need to see the source.

The Original source in a News Site is not available
But here is a THREAD OF PDF

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russia-offered-su-27-and-mig-29-to-paf-in-the-90s.50251/

 

[salman-1]

Not procuring on technical reasons is not a crime for e.g J-10 was declined by kaamra engineers team on the basis of Time between over haul was considered very low. Only 600 hrs of first overhaul, Mirages were also declined of soaring cost and maintenance setup flaws, only crime could be bribe for which they have to go outside of PAF to political circles specially Zardari Shb.
I remember it very clearly ACM of that time requested French to omit iff as they were charging it too high to cover the kick back amounts ofohterma.

Hi,

That is not a good enough reason to reject a potent weapons system.

Ask the Israeli how dearly they paid for the weapons in the late 40's and early 50's---.

You don't stop buying a potent weapon just because there is bribe invovled---.

And you never delay the procurement even if at a later date you find financial wrong doing---.

If you were a father and your young 1 year old daughter was dying---and the price of the medicine was 5 times the price and you could pay for it---but you refused to do so on principal---only then you can justify the refusal to make the deal.

Otherwise---please don't even try---and I am not being disrespectful---but this is what has happened. Pakistan was not treated as a mother by the Pakistan air force.

Yes I agree with you on buying spree, but Israel could afford and had lots of love attached by Uncle Sam. French played dual game with us they knew the sanction r not gonna go early and currupt ion by politicians was involved. Pakistan could not go long with extremely expensive and bad contracts, it could affect the fleet to be grounded in few years.

 

[Hassan Guy]

I am PAF's Defence lawyer on PDF

The point is simple

PAF is just one institution of the state ; BUT what OTHER institutions do
like Army ; ISI ; Civilians
All of it does have an effect and bearing on PAF's fortunes

Even that story about Donating money after Earthquake is Not entirely correct

The Final decision on How to Spend a Country's resources in any situation
is taken by President /PM -- That time Gen Musharraf was in power

dude piss off no one likes you

 

[el nino]

Why are you people blaming PAF
What do you seriously expect from a modest developing country with a huge population and very small gdp.
Any money you get from the USA in grant aid or the annual defense budget is eaten up your huge over bloated army which runs everything from your finances to your banks.

70% of your annual military budget goes to the army . The airforce is left with scraps and the navy the icing on the scraps,

Blame your generals not your airforce which considering the tiny finances they work with are dong a great job

 

[MastanKhan]

Not procuring on technical reasons is not a crime for e.g J-10 was declined by kaamra engineers team on the basis of Time between over haul was considered very low. Only 600 hrs of first overhaul, Mirages were also declined of soaring cost and maintenance setup flaws, only crime could be bribe for which they have to go outside of PAF to political circles specially Zardari Shb.
I remember it very clearly ACM of that time requested French to omit iff as they were charging it too high to cover the kick back amounts ofohterma.

Yes I agree with you on buying spree, but Israel could afford and had lots of love attached by Uncle Sam. French played dual game with us they knew the sanction r not gonna go early and currupt ion by politicians was involved. Pakistan could not go long with extremely expensive and bad contracts, it could affect the fleet to be grounded in few years.

Hi,

Not in the 40's---50's---or the mid 60's---.

The U S love evolved after the 67 war---when they realized that the arabs are not a good friendly asset.

What I am saying is---corruption must never be the reason to stop a major weapons deal---.

You have looked at a major weapon for 3-5 years to make a deal---a year in negotitation---3 years for first deliveries----so 5---8 years to make a deal---.

Then you get it and starts the integration process---another 5-8 years for a gen 3 aircraft---.

So---if you walk off during final negotiation---you are going to lose 10-12 years time and the funds that you have---they will be WASTED.

It is all about the timing---time is of essence---urgency---as you are trying to make a deal---there are others trying hard to sabotage your deal.

Though i understand your frustration seeing a capable airforce opting for strings attached equipment however who else should decide what equipment suits their needs and doctrine?

Hi,

Civilians like me can decide---. It is not the DOCTRINE of the Paf---the DOCTRINE must be that of PAKISTAN---.

The Paf can only give guidelines as to what it needs---. There must be a research wing in the defense ministry where are tacticians are researching how to counter a larger enemy and how to maintain and manage a balance of power between its forces and those of the enemy.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Why are you people blaming PAF
What do you seriously expect from a modest developing country with a huge population and very small gdp.
Any money you get from the USA in grant aid or the annual defense budget is eaten up your huge over bloated army which runs everything from your finances to your banks.

70% of your annual military budget goes to the army . The airforce is left with scraps and the navy the icing on the scraps,

Blame your generals not your airforce which considering the tiny finances they work with are dong a great job

Even Today ; PAF's total Budget is 2.5 Billion dollars

60 Percent of it is revenue expenditure

SO Capital expenditure is One Billion Dollars

Divide this into ALL the RE EQUIPMENT needs
whether it is Fighters; Helicopters; SAMs; Radars
Transport plane

 

[IceCold]

Hi,
I told you guys a few months ago that I am going to go after the Paf---. It has started---where it is going to end up---I do not know---.

Good luck sir and God speed though i do hope that someday the scope of this is increased and army is brought into it as well who claims to be the holy cow yet lost half the fucking country during their tenure, failed to capitalise on the opportunity to seize Kashmir in 62 again during military rule. Their fuckups are far more than the air force and nobody has ever answered a damn thing.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Just look at it---Paf walked out in early 90's on M2k---it did not get back till 10 years later----early 2000's---it flopped again and again and see where it put us.

 

[el nino]

Hi,

Just look at it---Paf walked out in early 90's on M2k---it did not get back till 10 years later----early 2000's---it flopped again and again and see where it put us.

How long PAF last in a near future war against india between now and 2022 in your mind mastan

 

[IceCold]

I would like to be PAF's Defence lawyer

I don't think there is need as someone is doing a fine job for the enemy considering the screwup of our armed forces.

 

[YeBeWarned]

another thread where the Gutter chap Public of India get chance to bash Pakistan and its institutions .. Thanks to our PDF phuppo @MastanKhan ...

 

[redgriffin]

How come Su 27 came into picture ? Lol in 90s we didn't had sound relations with Russia yet. Also Russia never had offered any plane because of strong drfense relations with India. Lets not forget that Russia was earlier reluctant to provide us Rd 93 engine until China negotiated them hard. Anyways Pak Russia relations are much better now as compared to 90s.

PAF seriously looked at the Flanker & Fulcrum as possible acquisitions in the mid 90s. Russia was open to selling these. In fact the whole thing is mentioned in PAF's official history for the period. Nothing came of these efforts & in 1997 it was Ukraine iirc which offered to sell Flankers from its own stocks to the PAF.

 

[Safriz]

Also open case against Zardari who gobbled up 40% of PAF budget consistently for 5 years.