Paf Sabotaged The Purchase Of New Aircraft For 30 Years---Open A Case

[CHACHA"G"]

But here on this thread I have read about dr shahid masood pleading guilty to NS taking
Bribe in su35 deal
Thx

I don't trust media that much , let it happen first ........ Bribe in SU-35 or in EU-Typhoon in both cases we will have our 4.5++ Heavy Jet.......................
I have hope and I am praying for the best ........... China + Russia + EU (UK + Italy mainly) they all have good birds lets see which one we will have .............
ACM is trying His best , but if Govt does not help him , He cant do much............. I am happy at least He is trying......

 

[XDescendantX]

I think we saved a lot of time, energy, and money not going for the Mirage 2000, F-16, Rafale, and J-10B in the past. We can always go for the present day J-10C but if we remain patient we can spend everything we saved on the J-31.

It's not like we needed those fighter jets in the 80's and 90's since the last real war fought was in 71. After Pakistan tested the nuke in 1999 you know damn well all those Western sources would've taken our money and freeze all sales in retaliation.

Well done to PAF for avoiding a lot of unnecessary headaches.

 

[CriticalThought]

I am old and mature enough and connected well enough to understand what is going on, however my understanding is that you are at the stage of your life where it is very difficult for you to change your way of thinking and understand something especially when it is being explained by someone who is a lot younger than you. There is no doubt about your knowledge and your ability to impress others with it however your knowledge is outdated and you do not like to be reminded of that. I am sorry for what i have said but it is not personal, i come from a family of highly educated adults with years of experience and i know what it is like to argue with them.

From your thoughts i gather you are saying that if Pakistan had a stronger air force, they would have used it in one of the 15 skirmishes which you mentioned thus escalating it into a full scale war? I am sorry but i can't even comment on this.

India, since the late 1990s have had a far superior air force as compared to Pakistan, (please read "PAF role in Kargil war" by Kaiser Tufail), they've had the flankers since 2004, do why have they never used them in any of the conflicts? Why have they not started a war with Pakistan? That is because they have already started a war in Pakistan, a war for which they do not need Heavy Tanks or advanced fighter Jets (they are buying them to prepare against China), a war in which Pakistan has lost more than 70,000 souls without India having to spend a single bullet. This is the war we are fighting and this is the war we are preparing against.

Sir, if the enemy hasn't attacked yet, it doesn't mean he will never attack. If he has imposed one war upon us, it doesn't mean he won't impose another war. The premise that India will not attack us is a flawed premise. Western powers view us as a thornier thorn in their sides than North Korea. The Islamic Bomb is a cactus which can never be swallowed, and India is the perfect proxy for them.

The way I understand it, the Indian mind will only decide to attack when it has the comfort of absolute numerical and technological supremacy. Their population is baying for blood, and their politician consider Pakistan a piece of rubbish on the floor. Today they are looking for:

1. Technological and numerical superiority that allows them a first strike against our strategic assets to preemptively neutralize them so full-fledged war can be imposed.

2. A bold, limited excursion to massage their egos that have been deflated in Kashmir.

We need to be fully prepared for both these scenarios. I think PAF is well prepared for 2, and 1 absolutely requires an inter-services effort according to a war doctrine, so no single force can be singled out for investment.

 

[MastanKhan]

I am old and mature enough and connected well enough to understand what is going on, however my understanding is that you are at the stage of your life where it is very difficult for you to change your way of thinking and understand something especially when it is being explained by someone who is a lot younger than you. There is no doubt about your knowledge and your ability to impress others with it however your knowledge is outdated and you do not like to be reminded of that. I am sorry for what i have said but it is not personal, i come from a family of highly educated adults with years of experience and i know what it is like to argue with them.

From your thoughts i gather you are saying that if Pakistan had a stronger air force, they would have used it in one of the 15 skirmishes which you mentioned thus escalating it into a full scale war? I am sorry but i can't even comment on this.

India, since the late 1990s have had a far superior air force as compared to Pakistan, (please read "PAF role in Kargil war" by Kaiser Tufail), they've had the flankers since 2004, do why have they never used them in any of the conflicts? Why have they not started a war with Pakistan? That is because they have already started a war in Pakistan, a war for which they do not need Heavy Tanks or advanced fighter Jets (they are buying them to prepare against China), a war in which Pakistan has lost more than 70,000 souls without India having to spend a single bullet. This is the war we are fighting and this is the war we are preparing against.

Hi,

It makes things very easy and respectful when you put your age and profession in your introduction.

You missed it again---. What i stated was---if Paf had a stronger air wing---we would already had a peace deal signed by now---and not a war.

When Paf was ready to buy the aircraft between 2004-05---the first thing that we heard was that the Indians and pakistanis are ready for the peace deal and about to sign it.

When the 2005 earthquake came---and Paf out of their USUAL STUPIDITY donated the funds to the earthquake relief---and then exclaimed that we don't have funds to buy aircraft---india walked away from the peace deal.

If you could not comprehend this much as an educated person---I am disappointed.

As for my age---you have a misunderstanding---my job that of a car salesman in the U S---it has trained me to accept the changes that have come into the business---act accordingly and utilize the new techniques and tactics---it is an ever changing environment.

I am by default programmed for a change right from day one of entering car sales---my basic fundamental training is all about change---thinking on your feet---adjusting to the needs and demands of a customer---changing directions in mid-stride at the whim of a customer---or at the directives of a manager---without bringing my hurt ego into the equation.

There is no other business in the world that has gone thru as much change as the car sales business---but the fundamentals of the business have stayed the same---.

Why india has not gone for a direct war---because of the international investments that they were promised---why it did not invade after Kargil---it ran out of ammo for its heavy guns---pak military ammo was not even touched---without heavy guns they could not fight a war---and then they got from Clinton and Nawaz what they wanted---so they made a tactical victory.

 

[iby32]

Why are you people blaming PAF
What do you seriously expect from a modest developing country with a huge population and very small gdp.
Any money you get from the USA in grant aid or the annual defense budget is eaten up your huge over bloated army which runs everything from your finances to your banks.

70% of your annual military budget goes to the army . The airforce is left with scraps and the navy the icing on the scraps,

Blame your generals not your airforce which considering the tiny finances they work with are dong a great job

All money is eaten by fukin swin like sharif the mother fuker if he need to sell his daughter to make money he would do. We do not need your opinion. I hope army take over or people come on roads to gett rid of this basterd

 

[SQ8]

Reminds of a conversation I had on some steps not too far from AHQ during 2004-2005. The Civic reborn was suddenly all over the place in the PAF compound and staff car pool- and I asked considering there were still relatively new.
"Hamien koi Jahaz bech nahin raha tu budget use karne ke liye gaarian khareed rahein hain"

A shrug is all that defines the PAF

 

[Mugwop]

Hi,

It is funny and it is painful.

The Govt of pakistan has decided to open cases of corruption against Paf officers retroactively.

What the next important steps they need to take is to open an inquiry and and charge those who sabotaged the procurement of a potent fighter aircraft in the last 30 years---.

All dishonest and HONEST officers who FAILED to acquire the aircraft---must be equally charged with sabotaging the defense of the nation and conspiring to create a situation to give the enemy and upper hand in an air battle.

Specially the one regarding the Mirage 2000 purchase in early 90's---those who went for the second batch of F16's in the late 80's---those who refused the Rafale procurement---those who did not force upon the U S after 9/11 for the F16 immediately---those who failed to comprehend the change in U S public opinion regarding the sale of F16's---specially those who donated the Paf funds for the aircraft to the earthquake relief---.

Those who refused the procurement of the J10B's 3 years ago---.

They must all be charged with treason---all properties confiscated and they should be hanged for conspiring to weakne the defense of the nation----Pakistan Zindabad.

I told you guys a few months ago that I am going to go after the Paf---. It has started---where it is going to end up---I do not know---.

Maybe they are saving up for J-31

 

[MastanKhan]

Maybe they are saving up for J-31

Hi,

Savings-----!!!!! No---that is not Paf---. Read Oscar's post.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

Savings-----!!!!! No---that is not Paf---. Read Oscar's post.

The sad bit is, there really arent any savings.
So if any government agency has budget left over, it gets reallocated elsewhere which is euphemism for people eat it up.

Pakistanis don't believe in Surplus so the idea is that you lose it if you don't use it. Ridiculous, no.. I want to use this term.. chutiyape ki cheezien..(people can complain language or whayever.. idgf) have been bought at exorbitant commissions and prices all over the military just because someone did not want the budget money to get lost.

 

[XDescendantX]

When the 2005 earthquake came---and Paf out of their USUAL STUPIDITY donated the funds to the earthquake relief---and then exclaimed that we don't have funds to buy aircraft---india walked away from the peace deal.

80,000+ died and 3 million were left homeless and you're saying it was stupid for PAF to donate funds to the earthquake relief? These are our people and there is nothing stupid about helping them.
If we have to match India out of firepower for peace then screw a peace deal. The only way we can ever have peace, is with a divided India.

 

[MastanKhan]

80,000+ died and 3 million were left homeless and you're saying it was stupid for PAF to donate funds to the earthquake relief? These are our people and there is nothing stupid about helping them.
If we have to match India out of firepower for peace then screw a peace deal. The only way we can ever have peace, is with a divided India.

Hi,

For nations to survive---drastic steps have to be taken. Prophet Muhammad did it---he was basically partially starving at times but did not let go of the weapons---.

" if you are victorious in war---no one asks you if there was butter and jam on the table with toast or if there were eggs on the breakfast table ". Gold Meir

All of that money & more was looted and plundered---. It did not go to any use for the victims---+ there were enough donations from the world to help the vicitims---.

Secondly---next time---don't sit on the money for weapons---. Buy them immediately when the moment arises---because there is always a problem coming at the next turn.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

@Oscar what is the anatomy of this all encompassing corruption and apathy?

It can't be just liminted to armed forces... is national bureauracy also equally infected?

About the political class of Pak PDF has educated me enough.

I would like to understand the root-cause of this cancer. What generates it, what sustains it?

I would value your 'acidic' take on it. If you be so kind to educate this poster..

Perhaps there is nothing I or you can do about it...but for now I have chosen not be silent about it. I might not be part of Pak society...but I do have deep love for people of Indus.

 

[el nino]

Your air force and the people running it are not to blame .

They do a good job with very limited resources and keep a huge enemy at bay .

Your problem is the army and the isi who hold the purse strings and eat all your resources and control.your money and your internal and external politics.

That is Pakistan Since birth

 

[F86 Saber]

Sir, if the enemy hasn't attacked yet, it doesn't mean he will never attack. If he has imposed one war upon us, it doesn't mean he won't impose another war. The premise that India will not attack us is a flawed premise. Western powers view us as a thornier thorn in their sides than North Korea. The Islamic Bomb is a cactus which can never be swallowed, and India is the perfect proxy for them.

The way I understand it, the Indian mind will only decide to attack when it has the comfort of absolute numerical and technological supremacy. Their population is baying for blood, and their politician consider Pakistan a piece of rubbish on the floor. Today they are looking for:

1. Technological and numerical superiority that allows them a first strike against our strategic assets to preemptively neutralize them so full-fledged war can be imposed.

2. A bold, limited excursion to massage their egos that have been deflated in Kashmir.

We need to be fully prepared for both these scenarios. I think PAF is well prepared for 2, and 1 absolutely requires an inter-services effort according to a war doctrine, so no single force can be singled out for investment.

What i have been trying to explain is that India does not need to get involved with troops to impose a war onto Pakistan, we are already in a state of war which is being fueled by India. As we found out during Operation Raah e Rast and Raah e Nijat, we were severely lacking the equipment and expertise to fight insurgency after which corrective measured were taken to invest in equipment and training. Today we are winning the war and our enemy is on the run however it is far from over until there is a regime change in Afghanistan, and till that time we need to concentrate on eradicating terrorism

India is not in the position to start a war with Pakistan because if it is a limited excursion they will get owned as our ground forces are now battle hardened from fighting terrorism and anything bigger can entice Pakistan into reaching for the Nukes which will be much more devastating for India as they much more to lose. They are already numerically and technologically superior to Pakistan and have been for some time. Your fear that they will strike first to knock out our nuclear capability is unjustified as we now have second strike capability as well.

Hi,

It makes things very easy and respectful when you put your age and profession in your introduction.

You missed it again---. What i stated was---if Paf had a stronger air wing---we would already had a peace deal signed by now---and not a war.

When Paf was ready to buy the aircraft between 2004-05---the first thing that we heard was that the Indians and pakistanis are ready for the peace deal and about to sign it.

When the 2005 earthquake came---and Paf out of their USUAL STUPIDITY donated the funds to the earthquake relief---and then exclaimed that we don't have funds to buy aircraft---india walked away from the peace deal.

If you could not comprehend this much as an educated person---I am disappointed.

As for my age---you have a misunderstanding---my job that of a car salesman in the U S---it has trained me to accept the changes that have come into the business---act accordingly and utilize the new techniques and tactics---it is an ever changing environment.

I am by default programmed for a change right from day one of entering car sales---my basic fundamental training is all about change---thinking on your feet---adjusting to the needs and demands of a customer---changing directions in mid-stride at the whim of a customer---or at the directives of a manager---without bringing my hurt ego into the equation.

There is no other business in the world that has gone thru as much change as the car sales business---but the fundamentals of the business have stayed the same---.

Why india has not gone for a direct war---because of the international investments that they were promised---why it did not invade after Kargil---it ran out of ammo for its heavy guns---pak military ammo was not even touched---without heavy guns they could not fight a war---and then they got from Clinton and Nawaz what they wanted---so they made a tactical victory.

You really believe India was coming to the dialogue table because of our Air force? Better yet, do you really believe India would ever come to the dialogue table with Pakistan and agree to solve the matter of Kashmir under any circumstances? I am sorry but i do not want to continue with this argument.

By the way, i am also a salesman by profession albeit of a different kind.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Though I enjoy and appreciate your contribution because you bring in a different perspective, a different angle to discussion making people look at other aspects and provide some food for thought but I don't agree with your generalized bashing of PAF. PAF is made up of thousands of honest, hard-working, proud and patriotic Pakistanis. A large majority of them have no say in policy decisions but do their best to make this organization a well respected organization in the world of air forces.

Having said that, there is no denying the presence of corruption in Pakistani society. Individuals in armed forces are not angels, they come from the same society, they see corruption all around them like everyone else and are affected by it like everyone else.

While corruption is an individual act and can not be blamed on the whole organization, but it is disappointing to see that such disciplined organizations like Army, Navy, and Air force do not have a check and balance system to eliminate or minimize corruption or at least bring it to limelight to capture/apprehend and punish the culprits. Corruption in these institutions is most detrimental to the institution themselves as it significantly reduces their funding from an already limited budget to acquire systems for basic operations.

I am not well aware of the position of "Military Audit" in their organizational hierarchy, but it seems they are not independent and don't have much power or say in control, monitoring, auditing, approving big ticket acquisitions.

Secondary failure is on the government level which has never deemed it necessary to install a financial accountability/responsibility mechanism in any of its projects whether civilian or military.

Third failure is on the part of judiciary, which never took a suo moto action to force the government to implement a financial check and balance system to safeguard against financial frauds, a punitive system to discourage corruption and punish corrupt.

Fourth failure is on part of general public who are highly politically aware but dumbest in choosing political leaders. We as general populace are the dumbest lot, we will kill our own brethren to defend one corrupt politician or the other. We will keep suffering, keep crying but also keep electing the same corrupt politicians over and over again.

So, corruption is a wide-spread issue, please do not insult the organization as a whole and do not insult countless hard-working, proud and patriotic Pakistanis who put their lives on the line to defend our liberties and freedom so that we can freely choose the same corrupt leaders again.

Hi,

It is funny and it is painful.

The Govt of pakistan has decided to open cases of corruption against Paf officers retroactively.

What the next important steps they need to take is to open an inquiry and and charge those who sabotaged the procurement of a potent fighter aircraft in the last 30 years---.

All dishonest and HONEST officers who FAILED to acquire the aircraft---must be equally charged with sabotaging the defense of the nation and conspiring to create a situation to give the enemy and upper hand in an air battle.

Specially the one regarding the Mirage 2000 purchase in early 90's---those who went for the second batch of F16's in the late 80's---those who refused the Rafale procurement---those who did not force upon the U S after 9/11 for the F16 immediately---those who failed to comprehend the change in U S public opinion regarding the sale of F16's---specially those who donated the Paf funds for the aircraft to the earthquake relief---.

Those who refused the procurement of the J10B's 3 years ago---.

They must all be charged with treason---all properties confiscated and they should be hanged for conspiring to weakne the defense of the nation----Pakistan Zindabad.

I told you guys a few months ago that I am going to go after the Paf---. It has started---where it is going to end up---I do not know---.