Paf Sabotaged The Purchase Of New Aircraft For 30 Years---Open A Case

[MastanKhan]

another thread where the Gutter chap Public of India get chance to bash Pakistan and its institutions .. Thanks to our PDF phuppo @MastanKhan ...

Hi,

It is Phuppa---. Thank you and I love you too.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Hi,

It is Phuppa---. Thank you and I love you too.

Phuppo sounds more fun, Muhallay mai jaggre karane Wali
well i do agree with a lot of your assessment and enjoy your post, but you are giving these Indian roaches excuse to insult PA ..

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

Hi,

Not in the 40's---50's---or the mid 60's---.

The U S love evolved after the 67 war---when they realized that the arabs are not a good friendly asset.

What I am saying is---corruption must never be the reason to stop a major weapons deal---.

You have looked at a major weapon for 3-5 years to make a deal---a year in negotitation---3 years for first deliveries----so 5---8 years to make a deal---.

Then you get it and starts the integration process---another 5-8 years for a gen 3 aircraft---.

So---if you walk off during final negotiation---you are going to lose 10-12 years time and the funds that you have---they will be WASTED.

It is all about the timing---time is of essence---urgency---as you are trying to make a deal---there are others trying hard to sabotage your deal.



Hi,

Civilians like me can decide---. It is not the DOCTRINE of the Paf---the DOCTRINE must be that of PAKISTAN---.

The Paf can only give guidelines as to what it needs---. There must be a research wing in the defense ministry where are tacticians are researching how to counter a larger enemy and how to maintain and manage a balance of power between its forces and those of the enemy.

Only one thing i would also like to probe and that is regarding doctrine as well. Who is the mind behind "Minimum Deterrance" doctrine of our armed state policy. That in itself is a confused doctrine leaving too much confusion within the ranks about what actually fits with in the minimum deterrence doctrine. I think our Navy and Airforce got hijacked as soon as this doctrine was introduced.
I spoke about why it is requirement for a shinning sword because its a "Warning" and open warning. Even in nature preditors won't pick on a prey which look more dangerous and combative. You leave yourself on minimum of whatever well that minimum is as good as nothing because it looses the purpose.
My wish is that i hope someone really take this doctrine of minimum deterrence should be changed. Its very clear that their is an enemy who is hell bent on destroying you then how stupid you be to have one bullet in a gun as minimum deternce instead a fully loaded and saftey off. Hope someone answer and better come up with some answer. I don't buy this reason of oh because we don't want to show the world that this or that or bla bla bla. You have a duty to protect your people and should do it to maximum instead of minimum.
Regarding PAF well if i am not wrong are they not among the most sophisticated branch of our armed forces. I think the upkeep of them looking sharp in their messes cost us too much as well. I wonder why brain farts when picking the best aircraft to get the job done.
You ask PAF why not a good platform?
PAF reaponse is money economy govt.
Govt is asked why no money for platform?
Govt: oh well army walay khud hi kartay hain humari kab suntay hain
Its a truck ki bati for whole nation and a joke right on their face with this "minimum deterrence" slap. Thanks

 

[MastanKhan]

Only one thing i would also like to probe and that is regarding doctrine as well. Who is the mind behind "Minimum Deterrance" doctrine of our armed state policy. That in itself is a confused doctrine leaving too much confusion within the ranks about what actually fits with in the minimum deterrence doctrine. I think our Navy and Airforce got hijacked as soon as this doctrine was introduced.
I spoke about why it is requirement for a shinning sword because its a "Warning" and open warning. Even in nature preditors won't pick on a prey which look more dangerous and combative. You leave yourself on minimum of whatever well that minimum is as good as nothing because it looses the purpose.
My wish is that i hope someone really take this doctrine of minimum deterrence should be changed. Its very clear that their is an enemy who is hell bent on destroying you then how stupid you be to have one bullet in a gun as minimum deternce instead a fully loaded and saftey off. Hope someone answer and better come up with some answer. I don't buy this reason of oh because we don't want to show the world that this or that or bla bla bla. You have a duty to protect your people and should do it to maximum instead of minimum.
Regarding PAF well if i am not wrong are they not among the most sophisticated branch of our armed forces. I think the upkeep of them looking sharp in their messes cost us too much as well. I wonder why brain farts when picking the best aircraft to get the job done.
You ask PAF why not a good platform?
PAF reaponse is money economy govt.
Govt is asked why no money for platform?
Govt: oh well army walay khud hi kartay hain humari kab suntay hain
Its a truck ki bati for whole nation and a joke right on their face with this "minimum deterrence" slap. Thanks

Hi,

You have done it again---first it was the " shining sword "---now you have come up with this line " Even in nature preditors won't pick on a prey which look more dangerous and combative ".

I wish I had come with these two line so that I did not have to beat my head against the stone wall AKA young pakistanis---.

It is indeed a natural phenomenon that mean and nasty people scare off threats easier than kinder and gentler people---it is all about the posture and appearances---.

And not about " it does not bring anything new to the table "---That comment by the Paf was a slap on the face of chinese friendship---it was a stab in the back of china---it was full of deceit and treasonous against china---.

Heads should have rolled in the air force for making these comments of sabotaging the portrayed threat of the aircraft in a public forum---.

 

[darksider]

Pls dont allow or awenser any indians here.
Well done mastan saab.i agree with you on this.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

Hi,

You have done it again---first it was the " shining sword "---now you have come up with this line " Even in nature preditors won't pick on a prey which look more dangerous and combative ".

I wish I had come with these two line so that I did not have to beat my head against the stone wall AKA young pakistanis---.

It is indeed a natural phenomenon that mean and nasty people scare off threats easier than kinder and gentler people---it is all about the posture and appearances---.

And not about " it does not bring anything new to the table "---That comment by the Paf was a slap on the face of chinese friendship---it was a stab in the back of china---it was full of deceit and treasonous against china---.

Heads should have rolled in the air force for making these comments of sabotaging the portrayed threat of the aircraft in a public forum---.

Well JF17 project i would honestly admit came out little better than what i was expecting. Even though some credit should go to Indian's slow induction of Rafale.
So i feel JF17 is one of those pulled off at the last minute kind of thing otherwise we assumed that we will get westren tech way easier to arm jf17's.

 

[MastanKhan]

Well JF17 project i would honestly admit came out little better than what i was expecting. Even though some credit should go to Indian's slow induction of Rafale.
So i feel JF17 is one of those pulled off at the last minute kind of thing otherwise we assumed that we will get westren tech way easier to arm jf17's.

Hi,

It is agreed about the JF17---but the way the J10 was smacked by the Paf---that was un-called for---.

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

It is agreed about the JF17---but the way the J10 was smacked by the Paf---that was un-called for---.

i do agree that many blunders were done and lots of kick backs were involved.

why was suddenly the deal of 66 new and used f-16 dropped, if finances was the issue i would have still gone for used f-16 even if we had to drop the new f-16s.

than why wasnt an alternative route devised, dropping j-10 will make sense only if you accelerate the j-31 and jf-17 induction, but infact it was further delayed, fault may not lie with air force planners alone, though

 

[MastanKhan]

i do agree that many blunders were done and lots of kick backs were involved.

why was suddenly the deal of 66 new and used f-16 dropped, if finances was the issue i would have still gone for used f-16 even if we had to drop the new f-16s.

than why wasnt an alternative route devised, dropping j-10 will make sense only if you accelerate the j-31 and jf-17 induction, but infact it was further delayed, fault may not lie with air force planners alone, though

Hi,

It purely and solely Paf planners---.

Paf lied to Gen Musharraf and told him that there was no threat of war between india and pakistan---so no need to push for the F16's on the fastrak---.

That is why there was a lackadaisical effort made between 2002-05 for any aircraft---and then funds for the F16's were donated to earthquake relief in 2005---.

When Gen Musharraf realized the lie---he went ahead and signed for 36 J10's---. But sine Gemn Musharraf left office---Paf---out of spite did not pursue the J10---.

Even though---the declining numbers and obsolete aircraft in inventory meant that any capable aircraft had to be inducted right away regardless of established infra structure or not---.

Then Paf never comprehended the TERM INTEGRATION---it never thought it would take 15 years to integrate JF17 aircraft into the system---.

Their mindset was still in the F86 and strip down F16 mode---. Paf was thinking of getting ready in a couple of years---.

Now wait till the BLK3 comes in and then wait and see its integration process---how long it takes to get the new radar going---.

 

[war&peace]

I'm happy that it has started and it shouldn't remain limited to PAF rather extended to all the armed forces and other institutions. After the Dawn-leaks fiasco, I'm interested that ex-COAS and current-COAS both get interrogated and if found guilty then punished under high treason so that no one will ever dare compromise on the national security and make disgraceful deals.

 

[ziaulislam]

some how the resource limited issue doesn't effect the army who have brought all sort of equipment but just effect the airforce, even navy has done wonders since 1998. agosta, f22, s20, milgem..but air force apart from the slow thunder no real equipment was brought. biggest mistake was not fully awaiting the f-16s in 2008 especially the used f-16 deal. the whole value of original deal was not much different just ~2billion more

 

[F86 Saber]

Hi,

It purely and solely Paf planners---.

Paf lied to Gen Musharraf and told him that there was no threat of war between india and pakistan---so no need to push for the F16's on the fastrak---.

That is why there was a lackadaisical effort made between 2002-05 for any aircraft---and then funds for the F16's were donated to earthquake relief in 2005---.

When Gen Musharraf realized the lie---he went ahead and signed for 36 J10's---. But sine Gemn Musharraf left office---Paf---out of spite did not pursue the J10---.

Even though---the declining numbers and obsolete aircraft in inventory meant that any capable aircraft had to be inducted right away regardless of established infra structure or not---.

Then Paf never comprehended the TERM INTEGRATION---it never thought it would take 15 years to integrate JF17 aircraft into the system---.

Their mindset was still in the F86 and strip down F16 mode---. Paf was thinking of getting ready in a couple of years---.

Now wait till the BLK3 comes in and then wait and see its integration process---how long it takes to get the new radar going---.

In your own language, you do not go on and replace your old Toyota with a leased Ferrari just because your rich neighbor bought a Lamborghini. By the way, were the PAF officials caught in their "lie"? How many wars have we had since 2002 with India where we needed to use our air force? There was no war nor is there isn't one in the foreseeable future.

You are still living in the time of your youth when advanced jets were used to bomb enemy's bases and important facilities, now the same is done by pressing a button to launch a CM or a BM. There is a belief in the Military hierarchy that the new war is insurgency which is already upon us and we need to be better prepared to fight it. If there is an all out war it will not be a conventional tank vs tank, artillery vs artillery and aircraft vs aircraft war, it will quickly escalate to Nuclear which will end both countries leaving no need for advanced weapons.

some how the resource limited issue doesn't effect the army who have brought all sort of equipment but just effect the airforce, even navy has done wonders since 1998. agosta, f22, s20, milgem..but air force apart from the slow thunder no real equipment was brought. biggest mistake was not fully awaiting the f-16s in 2008 especially the used f-16 deal. the whole value of original deal was not much different just ~2billion more

Just by the way, what equipment has been purchased by the army in the last 10 years? If you have a look at them, New Helicopters, advanced handheld weapons, updated gear for soldiers like NVGs, armor etc, APCs, they have all been bought to fight terrorists and not India. Our need right now is to curb out terrorism and clear our soil of these scum.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

In your own language, you do not go on and replace your old Toyota with a leased Ferrari just because your rich neighbor bought a Lamborghini. By the way, were the PAF officials caught in their "lie"? How many wars have we had since 2002 with India where we needed to use our air force? There was no war nor is there isn't one in the foreseeable future.

You are still living in the time of your youth when advanced jets were used to bomb enemy's bases and important facilities, now the same is done by pressing a button to launch a CM or a BM. There is a belief in the Military hierarchy that the new war is insurgency which is already upon us and we need to be better prepared to fight it. If there is an all out war it will not be a conventional tank vs tank, artillery vs artillery and aircraft vs aircraft war, it will quickly escalate to Nuclear which will end both countries leaving no need for advanced weapons.



Just by the way, what equipment has been purchased by the army in the last 10 years? If you have a look at them, New Helicopters, advanced handheld weapons, updated gear for soldiers like NVGs, armor etc, APCs, they have all been bought to fight terrorists and not India. Our need right now is to curb out terrorism and clear our soil of these scum.

Even though i agree with you on some points however your 2 points intotally disagree with.
1. How many wars have we fought with India since 2002??
Well it was not so long ago we were almost at war with NATO after Salala incident. Thank god things didnt get messy at the time or else you would ve known the reality and heads out of sand. War can happen anytime or any moment and with anyone thats what the nature of current affairs. Tell US Russia that Airforce is of no need in Syria and all you need is press of buttons. They are dummies to have deployed Su35's, and all other platfroms in Syrian theatre.
2. Your second point i disagree with is that its not tank to tank or aircraft to aircraft.
Look the thing is you have to show your teeth these days to divert threat. If we have a better fleet then we wont have to invest resourses in sealing the holes that are caused because of weak equipment on the first place.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

@MastanKhan , my dear friend, your Triest Against PAF... how it keeps unfolding!

Why limit yourself to PAF alone... are there not other monsters behind the hedges in the Garden of Pak?

Painful sights these.. this rampant corruption in every sphere of the state.

Before, we lament and condemn corrupts let us take a step back and understand what corruption means.

When someone steals something... it is not just the object but it is also theft of all possibilities that is stolen. Bar only out of pure hunger...then the context is different.

What this rampant corruption in political and establishment spheres has done to Pak State and Pak People is theft of Life...theft of all possibilities that this nation and its young could have had.

We must stand still...and look how eduction, justice and development is stolen.

And with this theft...future development, health and happiness is stolen from the youth. These parasites have created a cycle of misery which is unnatural for Pak's natural conditions.

So, yeah, MK, let us join hands and condemn corruption and corrupt. But let us also feel deep sadness for the loss of Possibilities too.

I guess you bleed in your heart too... despite you being a Yankee and all... you still love your Pak dearly. All your troublemaking here on PDF might not be only related to your ego after all!


@Horus @WebMaster @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Mentee @DESERT FIGHTER @django @Max @Kaptaan , dear friends, since PDF is about the Defence of Pakistan from all threat avenues...
how come we don't have a dedicated place to highlight and condemn these thieves of Life and Possibilities. Naming and shaming perhaps can help in creating awareness among the young.

I leave it upto you to do the Right Thing. As not being part of Pak Society... I as person... can only accentuate the Positive and feel sadness in private.

 

[Readerdefence]

If we all look closely , This new development in its self saying many things .............. Things were not right and as per order .... That's Y , PAF wanting investigation powers .....
And I have one question too , PAF gave money to earthquake relief fund ! I like to see those Hospitals + Schools + Roads + Bridges that were build by that Money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We missed many golden opportunities , Now IAF is years ahead from PAF in quality + quantity + Technology ....... Gap is just to dam big.
JF-17 is blessing but in Current airframe it is light and small bird , which cant stay in air for long , And we want this bird to kill SU-30s ..........LMAO........
In the end : Stop saying man behind the machine , The order is "Have your Horses Ready" and horse is a dam machine .
ACM. Sohail doing great job, His idea of Aviation city is just dam to good , We are late but we are on right path . And as per other members and media speculations He is also trying for new 4.5+ heavy bird . Fingers crossed , Lets Pray for the Best.

But here on this thread I have read about dr shahid masood pleading guilty to NS taking
Bribe in su35 deal
Thx

US was friendly both to India and Pakistan at that point
Hence it asked Ayub not to do anything

You should find out the History of Pak China relations
That is when did they develop and what was the state in 1962

China of 1962 was a totally insular country ; it had just fought a war with USA
in Korea and wanted to avoid all countries it considered as US allies

And the Really amazing is that AYUB offered India a Joint DEFENCE against China
Because he was worried about Communist China

Even Pakistan Government looked at China with suspicion

So there was no way China would have shared its plans with Pakistan in 1962

Really my friend you are so full of twist and mingles according to your own desire
And whatever suits you please go through Pakistan china history then comment on this particular
Subject and please do mention Chinese war with India also in 1962
Thx