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PAF Pilots To Be Honoured

IMO they felt it like a capitulation!!! And, some reels from very old movies started to roll in their minds - Muhammed bin Kasim, Sultan Mahmoud, Kutubeddin Aybek, Alemgir Aurangazeb, EbdAli etc.....
I like how you find relevance of our past history for the present.
Those who donot learn from history let it repeat itself.

Yeah I dont believe this story to be true.It seems funny to me, dragging an injured pilot across the LOC.
Airomerix bhais posts seem legit. I trust them him for one. Why would he make stuff like this up.
 
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I dispute that their bases are well protected. PAF fairly easily targeted locations of interest on feb 27th without any challenge. Technology alone don’t change outcomes. If it did, the Arabs would have prevailed over the Israelis.

Pakistanis need to get over ‘71. No military could have won in that context. You have deeply hostile population, invigorated militants which have support of locals and neighboring country, an enemy already 10x your size and if that wasn’t enough, Pakistan had to fight in a territory separated in excess 1000 miles by India. The US failed in Vietnam without USSR & China not even formally being involved. The US is a super power. Pakistan isn’t. No country super power or otherwise prevails in a hostile environment hundreds of miles away. 1971 was an anomaly which won’t happen again. Even then, the PAF stood up to India even in the Bengal theatre.
Fun Fact, in the 1971 Air War, Western Theatre, India lost 15 and Pakistan lost 5 aircraft in air to air combat. Our tactical achievements got overshadowed by the strategic setbacks.
 
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As usual trolling/ranting nothing else and please don't tag me again for your idiotic/stupid posts again thanks

I will not respond to your trolling. If you believe we shot down 10 jets. Then it is your right. For all I care.

@The Deterrent @pakistanipower @airomerix

Never meant to Troll or insult you guys i was having fun with indian post..i do not rant - i pointed something that i found out not calibrating with the picture - so i will keep quite and let time decide..In the End please accept my apologies! lets contribute on tactics deployed by PAF which we know about from OSINT and some here and there little crums of information.

After all we are in same boat! we can politely agree to disagree
 
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Well atleast we saw Fox Three from our side.

As far as RoE is concerned,in my opinion there's no RoE in war as we observed in Air Engagement of 27-2 and as we saw India was ready to open hell via ballistic missiles,they only stopped because we threatened them of counter attack in time and involved some mutual Papa of both countries.

From Turkey-Russia incident I was of believe that shooting down one or two aircrafts doesn't start a war.But again,its India and Pakistan you can expect anything.

Pakistan gov and military gave us the perfect example of OODA Loop,they did not respond right after the Indian violation on 26th,rather waited for the morning to access the damage and then acted accordingly.While India just decides and Acts and that's the reason they lost.


The only tactic I think we gave up is the way we used AWACS and EW equipment.But I am sure that the airforce that flies even on public holidays has many tactics up its sleeves.

As far as signatures are concerned,do you know why Mirages penetrated so easily and didn't get detected in time?
We are facing an increasingly belligerent and zealous leadership in India which is assuming that nuclear war has an actual winnable scenario.

The recent engagement may even prompt a greater arms procuring spree along with increased training on their side which will make it impossible for us to repeat the events of the 27th.

History shows that for 65 where we snatched “defeat” from the jaws of victory in the air against a flying club of an airforce in India.. in 71 we faced a skillful organized opponent that nearly outfought us.

This incident is 65 except we had our victory.. They are not looking for the 71 and will double that effort.
 
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We are facing an increasingly belligerent and zealous leadership in India which is assuming that nuclear war has an actual winnable scenario.

The recent engagement may even prompt a greater arms procuring spree along with increased training on their side which will make it impossible for us to repeat the events of the 27th.

History shows that for 65 where we snatched “defeat” from the jaws of victory in the air against a flying club of an airforce in India.. in 71 we faced a skillful organized opponent that nearly outfought us.

This incident is 65 except we had our victory.. They are not looking for the 71 and will double that effort.
I concur with your point that IAF will be back and will try their best to hit us hard.
Is PAF ready for any eventuality, are they also planning a head or do you see them committing same mistake as in 71
 
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I concur with your point that IAF will be back and will try their best to hit us hard.
Is PAF ready for any eventuality, are they also planning a head or do you see them committing same mistake as in 71
They made very few mistakes in 71.. they planned ahead, weakened Pakistan internally (Bengali resistance then/ PTM/BLA today) purchased and multiplied their equipment and only when they saw us at our weakest they attacked.
 
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They made very few mistakes in 71.. they planned ahead, weakened Pakistan internally (Bengali resistance then/ PTM/BLA today) purchased and multiplied their equipment and only when they saw us at our weakest they attacked.
But there is no 71 like insurgency going on, plus I think that PAF is much stronger and well equipped then before.
But yes we should not let our guard down.
 
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But there is no 71 like insurgency going on, plus I think that PAF is much stronger and well equipped then before.
But yes we should not let our guard down.
The new insurgency isn’t always armed.. its online.

We are relatively better armed yes, but also going down the drain economically.
 
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The new insurgency isn’t always armed.. its online.

We are relatively better armed yes, but also going down the drain economically.
Economy is our downside and we need to work on it on emergency basis, hopefully things will get better.
 
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History shows that for 65 where we snatched “defeat” from the jaws of victory in the air against a flying club of an airforce in India.. in 71 we faced a skillful organized opponent that nearly outfought us.

This incident is 65 except we had our victory.. They are not looking for the 71 and will double that effort.

I must say very eloquently put!
 
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The new insurgency isn’t always armed.. its online.

This is what the new warfare domain is all about .... the weapon is cellphone/tab/notebook only. What is needed? Dedicated team members in good numbers with simple mission keep an eye on media and counter-propaganda through information dilution, counter info, some sort of trolling ....so many tactics. For example, India is using it to cover the damages inflicted on 27/2 by spreading the narrative of F16 so aggressively.

Post 27/2, Indians re-launched BLA/PTM through "online" warriors and mostly being operated outside of Pakistan....do you think Ali wazir/dawar or BLA members can write English sentences/Tweets/posts as we regularly see? these are random rented accounts.
 
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Well then shouldn't IAF have had multiple aircraft airborne then along with AEWs, AWACS, plus IA and IAF activating missile defenses?

IAF did have Su-30s and Mirage-2000s airborne, but as I said, PAF employed divisive tactics to lure them out and made a window for the incursion. You cannot 'activate' missile defenses if they're not deployed to begin with. It seems that IA did not deploy SAMs at their FOBs in IoK.

I think that the greatest benefit that we have got is to realise that much more the psyche of the Pak armed forces and their extreme desire to show to the people of Pakistan that they are the saviours of the nation. This desire has caused PAF to respond in this manner. Pakistani and Indian forces, though professional, are different in this crucial aspect, and this changes the nature of response. But i think that India should try to get the upper hand militarily (without actual war or with very minor skirmishes) - but how to do that in a democracy like India is a question whose answers are not easily available to our politicians.

Unless Indian arms procurement stalls like during our former defense minister A. K. Anthony's tenure, we will eventually get much better arms from multiple sources (Russian, Western, Israeli, as well as home grown) while Pakistan will become more dependent on China which is not always great.

No, the retaliatory strikes were undertaken to re-establish Pakistan's conventional deterrence. There's nothing unprofessional about this, Pakistani PM had already declared that Pakistan will retaliate if provoked, as per state policy. In fact, to my personal astonishment, the manner in which Pakistan climbed the escalation ladder was exemplary. Instead of going after IAF in hot pursuit or retaliating ASAP, extensive damage assessment was done, which showed no damages to any structures or any casualties. Based on this assessment, the appropriate calibrated proportional response was chosen, i.e. strikes in proximity of IA FOBs to demonstrate retaliatory capability and the will to escalate the conflict.
PAF could've destroyed the chosen targets if the intention was to damage them, but instead chose a very careful response. The successful execution of the demonstrative retaliatory strikes despite IAF's overwhelming majority in numbers and quality, having declared twice that there will be retaliation and conducting the strikes in broad daylight...speaks volumes of the professionalism of the military. The proverbial escalation ball was put back in India's court, which failed to respond in a calibrated proportionate manner.

What does that mean? That PAF could not really know about its shortcomings except for lack of adequate aircraft to send back the intruding mirages?
There are certain shortcomings that are somewhat known, but not really acknowledged unless an incident happens. Case in point, loss of Saab-2000 AEWs & P-3C Orions in terrorist attacks. Similarly, while it is known and acknowledged that PAF has lesser numbers and couldn't possibly "protect" the Muzaffarabad sector all the time...effectively challenging the IAF aircraft crossing the LoC could have been a learning lesson, although might have resulted in PAF aircrafts being shot down.

You speak of localised air superiority - lets assume that PAF achieved localised air superiority. However the entire aerial war stopped pretty rapidly. One reason preferred by Pakistanis is that 2 IAF aircraft got hit and IAF suddenly deescalated the situation; PAF achieved its objective and chose to deescalate. The other extreme favours the Indian narrative (F-16) forcing PAF to deescalate. The middle ground is that PAF after downing the Mig-21 did not want to escalate matters any further as IAF would have been forced to respond - this is the reason why i think that the Su30 was not downed or damaged badly - in an air battle losses are expected especially when local air superiority is achieved, why would IAF keep quiet if it really got a beating?
You have to see the bigger picture, both countries attempted to de-escalate on their own terms, but only one did.
India was already trying to de-escalate after the attempted Balakot strike, when Indian FM was making statements of de-escalation in China. Pakistan chose to respond, and then attempted to de-escalate. And no, India didn't keep quiet, it attempted to escalate with retaliatory BrahMos strikes, which didn't go through due to a combination of Pakistan's missile signaling and the intervention of the International community.


71 performance of Airforce was not bad but don't mix apple and oranges. 71 was more complex than simple one sweeping statement.
I didn't compare any performance, I said that the complacency of the military in '65 led them to underestimate the enemy's capabilities in '71...exactly what is being seen here today. I hope the military establishment will remain humble and will not overestimate themselves, something that they've quite a couple times in the past (cue '65, '99).


Maybe because they wanted them to show we can get deep inside your territory.
Maybe.


I dispute that their bases are well protected. PAF fairly easily targeted locations of interest on feb 27th without any challenge. Technology alone don’t change outcomes. If it did, the Arabs would have prevailed over the Israelis.

Pakistanis need to get over ‘71. No military could have won in that context. You have deeply hostile population, invigorated militants which have support of locals and neighboring country, an enemy already 10x your size and if that wasn’t enough, Pakistan had to fight in a territory separated in excess 1000 miles by India. The US failed in Vietnam without USSR & China not even formally being involved. The US is a super power. Pakistan isn’t. No country super power or otherwise prevails in a hostile environment hundreds of miles away. 1971 was an anomaly which won’t happen again. Even then, the PAF stood up to India even in the Bengal theatre.
You dispute my argument, but do not offer any counter-argument. PAF targeted FOBs undefended by SAMs, a mere 12km across the LoC (Rajouri, Narian), using the best available terminally guided SOWs. Compare that to Srinagar AFS, 45km from the LoC and well-protected by SAMs. Apart from launching SOWs to inflict general damage to infrastructure etc., PAF lacks the ability to conduct successful anti-airfield ops without getting shot down in large numbers. Only H-4s have terminal seekers which can take out individual installations, i.e. radars, command bunkers etc.

It is true that '71 was not only unwinnable, but also inevitable. My point here is not that we lost in '71, its that the Pakistani military became complacent due to a few battlefield victories of '65, both in the air and on the ground.
 
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IAF did have Su-30s and Mirage-2000s airborne, but as I said, PAF employed divisive tactics to lure them out and made a window for the incursion. You cannot 'activate' missile defenses if they're not deployed to begin with. It seems that IA did not deploy SAMs at their FOBs in IoK.



No, the retaliatory strikes were undertaken to re-establish Pakistan's conventional deterrence. There's nothing unprofessional about this, Pakistani PM had already declared that Pakistan will retaliate if provoked, as per state policy. In fact, to my personal astonishment, the manner in which Pakistan climbed the escalation ladder was exemplary. Instead of going after IAF in hot pursuit or retaliating ASAP, extensive damage assessment was done, which showed no damages to any structures or any casualties. Based on this assessment, the appropriate calibrated proportional response was chosen, i.e. strikes in proximity of IA FOBs to demonstrate retaliatory capability and the will to escalate the conflict.
PAF could've destroyed the chosen targets if the intention was to damage them, but instead chose a very careful response. The successful execution of the demonstrative retaliatory strikes despite IAF's overwhelming majority in numbers and quality, having declared twice that there will be retaliation and conducting the strikes in broad daylight...speaks volumes of the professionalism of the military. The proverbial escalation ball was put back in India's court, which failed to respond in a calibrated proportionate manner.


There are certain shortcomings that are somewhat known, but not really acknowledged unless an incident happens. Case in point, loss of Saab-2000 AEWs & P-3C Orions in terrorist attacks. Similarly, while it is known and acknowledged that PAF has lesser numbers and couldn't possibly "protect" the Muzaffarabad sector all the time...effectively challenging the IAF aircraft crossing the LoC could have been a learning lesson, although might have resulted in PAF aircrafts being shot down.


You have to see the bigger picture, both countries attempted to de-escalate on their own terms, but only one did.
India was already trying to de-escalate after the attempted Balakot strike, when Indian FM was making statements of de-escalation in China. Pakistan chose to respond, and then attempted to de-escalate. And no, India didn't keep quiet, it attempted to escalate with retaliatory BrahMos strikes, which didn't go through due to a combination of Pakistan's missile signaling and the intervention of the International community.



I didn't compare any performance, I said that the complacency of the military in '65 led them to underestimate the enemy's capabilities in '71...exactly what is being seen here today. I hope the military establishment will remain humble and will not overestimate themselves, something that they've quite a couple times in the past (cue '65, '99).



Maybe.



You dispute my argument, but do not offer any counter-argument. PAF targeted FOBs undefended by SAMs, a mere 12km across the LoC (Rajouri, Narian), using the best available terminally guided SOWs. Compare that to Srinagar AFS, 45km from the LoC and well-protected by SAMs. Apart from launching SOWs to inflict general damage to infrastructure etc., PAF lacks the ability to conduct successful anti-airfield ops without getting shot down in large numbers. Only H-4s have terminal seekers which can take out individual installations, i.e. radars, command bunkers etc.

It is true that '71 was not only unwinnable, but also inevitable. My point here is not that we lost in '71, its that the Pakistani military became complacent due to a few battlefield victories of '65, both in the air and on the ground.

I concur with your general line of argument but the IAF backed off for a reason, and Modi run to the nuclear button for a reason. The global consensus is that the IAF was hit and that it was hit hard and bloody. SOW were used by both countries during the February skirmishes.
 
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Resultantly, IAF will now go for better BVRs, more AWACS & AEWs, more ECM equipment etc.
Here is what I do not get. By what fragment of anyone's imagination was IAF not already gearing up for an update of their systems? And already does not field some of the most extensive ECM equipment in the neighborhood? Have you seen their orders, lately? Have you read about the ex- that they conduct with Israelis and Singaporeans?

Also, what makes you believe that PAF EW war planning gave up anything more than what was absolutely necessary for that fraction of an operation?

I know this for a 'fact' and almost first hand that JF-17s did not even turn their on-board ECM/ECCM on. They were asked not to. PAF would be considered an absolutely childish organization, if it just went in all guns blazing - knowing what IAF had in store on the other side. It was a calibrated and proportionate response - all over. Not just in some ways.

As for EW in itself is an ever-changing war tool, it does not just sit there in its present shape and form, every single time it goes up in the air. If you think that PAF will not be updating more of its machines with ECM, you're mistaken - check the updates specs for JF-17s.

As for tactics, both air forces train for the adversary to bring their A-game on the day it counts. It'll be the same in all future war scenarios b/w Pak and Ind.
 
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No, the retaliatory strikes were undertaken to re-establish Pakistan's conventional deterrence. There's nothing unprofessional about this, Pakistani PM had already declared that Pakistan will retaliate if provoked, as per state policy. In fact, to my personal astonishment, the manner in which Pakistan climbed the escalation ladder was exemplary. Instead of going after IAF in hot pursuit or retaliating ASAP, extensive damage assessment was done, which showed no damages to any structures or any casualties. Based on this assessment, the appropriate calibrated proportional response was chosen, i.e. strikes in proximity of IA FOBs to demonstrate retaliatory capability and the will to escalate the conflict.
PAF could've destroyed the chosen targets if the intention was to damage them, but instead chose a very careful response. The successful execution of the demonstrative retaliatory strikes despite IAF's overwhelming majority in numbers and quality, having declared twice that there will be retaliation and conducting the strikes in broad daylight...speaks volumes of the professionalism of the military. The proverbial escalation ball was put back in India's court, which failed to respond in a calibrated proportionate manner.

I never said that the PAF responded unprofessionally. I pointed out the difference in the mindset of Pakistani and Indian armed forces. One has a high profile in the minds of the general populace and responds in a manner it feels fit to sustain that perception. IMO the quantum of retaliation from a less equipped PAF was surprising for us and the IAF. Govt. of India, IA & IAF in the retaliatory strikes always tried to portray them as an anti-terrorist action and not specifically against your armed forces. In some sense we were always looking for a de-escalation. On our side, the political bombast should have been much softer.

And no, India didn't keep quiet, it attempted to escalate with retaliatory BrahMos strikes, which didn't go through due to a combination of Pakistan's missile signaling and the intervention of the International community.
Widely reported, but no proof - just like downing of each other's aircrafts.
 
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