PAF Pilots To Be Honoured

[thinkingcap81]

We're you living in a cave all this time?

For the last three days straight, I see zdk flying very low during late hours followed by two thunders but in a loss formation. Are they up to something?

I was asking @The Deterrent because he specifically said that PAF's EW and tactics was partially revealed. Most people here hare quick to talk of superiority of PAF vis-a-vis IAF under practically all circumstances except for the disparity in numbers. So i wanted have his opinion about skills versus lack of estimating PAF response.

 

[Falcon26]

I have added plenty of constructive content on the events of February. I simply tend to call out BS when I see it, and have some fun while doing so.

PAF will have much more to lose in a future conflict when IAF will adopt comprehensive ECMs across the board. Thats why exposing EW tactics for a smaller scale operation might not turn out to be in PAF's favor in the future.
The situation is somewhat analogous to the PAF bombing raids of IAF FOBs in '65 and '71. Today, IAF bases are extremely well protected by SAMs and extensively use fortification and camouflage. PAF would find it extremely difficult to successfully strike an IAF base (i.e. anti-airfield ops).

Is it the same reason they had to go in much further, despite the H4's comms pod having an LoS range of >100km at optimum altitude?

As Indian tactics change, so will Pakistan’s. You are imagining a world where India adopts to PAF tactics while PAF remains stagnant. This is not how it works. Events of feb 27th prove that despite India’s significant advantage in resources, PAF will remain ahead. New Delhi prepared for feb 27th type events for more than a decade and bought a plethora of weapon systems from diverse suppliers and still lost spectacularly. If you imagine PAF revealed some tactics, be sure to call bet that India did as well. This is a war and you don’t hold back and concede advantage in return for a surprise in unknown future events.

 

[Ultima Thule]

No As per our esteemed Think Tank Analyists & ACM Sb @The Deterrent @pakistanipower your FOB were on Holiday, who ever that was fly at the moment were in lala land and those 2 x aircraft (MiG-21 & Su-30MKI) were playing "lets lock him haha i lock him oh he lock me...oh" because its a big NO to shoot any Indian Aircraft. as per @airomerix

SO..27th Feb 19 never happened!

As usual trolling/ranting nothing else and please don't tag me again for your idiotic/stupid posts again thanks @TheTallGuy

 

[The Deterrent]

Do you think that IAF did not expect the scale of PAF response and hence was unprepared?

IAF was prepared for a simpler strike, similar to theirs at Balakot. What IAF was not prepared for were the complex divisive tactics of PAF prior to the strike and the EW tactics employed during the skirmish.

IAF said that they detected multiple PAF aircraft getting airborne. So was the response time for IAF inadequate or was it not possible to get an adequate response ready?

How did they manage to penetrate? IAF defence was not active? Was some jamming by IAF present?

Most people have the misled impression that only 24x PAF fighters got airborne shortly before 1000 and simply moved towards the LoC. If I recall the OSINT reports correctly, Pakistani skies were buzzing with PAF aircrafts in multiple sectors since 0800. That means for roughly 2 hours PAF conducted extremely dense BARCAPs along the LoC & IB, while not crossing the 10km buffer of LoC/IB, hence wearing the IAF out and creating chaotic confusion. That's why PAF's intrusion was met by a meager 8x IAF fighters. There are also reports that the Phalcon AWACS was not on station when PAF intruded. It appears that IA had not deployed SAMs in the LoC area, neither they had enough assets airborne for active jamming of PAF aircrafts.

This does not means that IAF is any lesser than PAF. IAF employed its own mix of covert and divisive tactics before intruding to strike Balakot with SOWs. Both air forces simply managed to create a localized environment of air superiority in the respective sectors of air space, prior to executing their respective air strikes.

Considering a future conflict, the entity which has benefited the most from this skirmish, is the one that got to learn the most. Glaring holes in IAF's armor were exposed by PAF, while on the other hand IAF employed relatively simpler tactics during the Balakot strike, exposing next to nothing of PAF. Resultantly, IAF will now go for better BVRs, more AWACS & AEWs, more ECM equipment etc. Overall, this skirmish has a lot of similarities with PAF's dominance over IAF in '65, which led to complacency.

As Indian tactics change, so will Pakistan’s. You are imagining a world where India adopts to PAF tactics while PAF remains stagnant. This is not how it works. Events of feb 27th prove that despite India’s significant advantage in resources, PAF will remain ahead. New Delhi prepared for feb 27th type events for more than a decade and bought a plethora of weapon systems from diverse suppliers and still lost spectacularly. If you imagine PAF revealed some tactics, be sure to call bet that India did as well. This is a war and you don’t hold back and concede advantage in return for a surprise in unknown future events.

It is true, but sometimes things boil down to a simple fact that whether you have enough resources to buy new equipment. India can sustain plugging the chinks in its armor, Pakistan can't. Like I gave an example, IAF's bases are a lot well protected than PAF's, and PAF still hasn't found a way to conduct anti-airfield ops without getting shot down in huge numbers.

This is exactly the sort of feel-good bravado that led to '71.

 

[baqai]

can someone please also spill the beans on what happened on the ground, getting the downed pilot to our side was interesting bit as well, was Abhi the SU driver/WSO or Bison driver?

 

[SIPRA]

can someone please also spill the beans on what happened on the ground, getting the downed pilot to our side was interesting bit as well, was Abhi the SU driver/WSO or Bison driver?

All these things would be considered mere conjectures, unless some proofs are produced by ISPR or PAF.

 

[thinkingcap81]

IAF was prepared for a simpler strike, similar to theirs at Balakot. What IAF was not prepared for were the complex divisive tactics of PAF prior to the strike and the EW tactics employed during the skirmish.

Most people have the misled impression that only 24x PAF fighters got airborne shortly before 1000 and simply moved towards the LoC. If I recall the OSINT reports correctly, Pakistani skies were buzzing with PAF aircrafts in multiple sectors since 0800. That means for roughly 2 hours PAF conducted extremely dense BARCAPs along the LoC & IB, while not crossing the 10km buffer of LoC/IB, hence wearing the IAF out and creating chaotic confusion. That's why PAF's intrusion was met by a meager 8x IAF fighters. There are also reports that the Phalcon AWACS was not on station when PAF intruded. It appears that IA had not deployed SAMs in the LoC area, neither they had enough assets airborne for active jamming of PAF aircrafts.

Well then shouldn't IAF have had multiple aircraft airborne then along with AEWs, AWACS, plus IA and IAF activating missile defenses?

I think that the greatest benefit that we have got is to realise that much more the psyche of the Pak armed forces and their extreme desire to show to the people of Pakistan that they are the saviours of the nation. This desire has caused PAF to respond in this manner. Pakistani and Indian forces, though professional, are different in this crucial aspect, and this changes the nature of response. But i think that India should try to get the upper hand militarily (without actual war or with very minor skirmishes) - but how to do that in a democracy like India is a question whose answers are not easily available to our politicians.

Unless Indian arms procurement stalls like during our former defense minister A. K. Anthony's tenure, we will eventually get much better arms from multiple sources (Russian, Western, Israeli, as well as home grown) while Pakistan will become more dependent on China which is not always great.

Considering a future conflict, the entity which has benefited the most from this skirmish, is the one that got to learn the most. Glaring holes in IAF's armor were exposed by PAF, while on the other hand IAF employed relatively simpler tactics during the Balakot strike, exposing next to nothing of PAF. Resultantly, IAF will now go for better BVRs, more AWACS & AEWs, more ECM equipment etc. Overall, this skirmish has a lot of similarities with PAF's dominance over IAF in '65, which led to complacency.

What does that mean? That PAF could not really know about its shortcomings except for lack of adequate aircraft to send back the intruding mirages?

You speak of localised air superiority - lets assume that PAF achieved localised air superiority. However the entire aerial war stopped pretty rapidly. One reason preferred by Pakistanis is that 2 IAF aircraft got hit and IAF suddenly deescalated the situation; PAF achieved its objective and chose to deescalate. The other extreme favours the Indian narrative (F-16) forcing PAF to deescalate. The middle ground is that PAF after downing the Mig-21 did not want to escalate matters any further as IAF would have been forced to respond - this is the reason why i think that the Su30 was not downed or damaged badly - in an air battle losses are expected especially when local air superiority is achieved, why would IAF keep quiet if it really got a beating?

 

[TsAr]

PAF will have much more to lose in a future conflict when IAF will adopt comprehensive ECMs across the board. Thats why exposing EW tactics for a smaller scale operation might not turn out to be in PAF's favor in the future.
The situation is somewhat analogous to the PAF bombing raids of IAF FOBs in '65 and '71. Today, IAF bases are extremely well protected by SAMs and extensively use fortification and camouflage. PAF would find it extremely difficult to successfully strike an IAF base (i.e. anti-airfield ops).

Is it the same reason they had to go in much further, despite the H4's comms pod having an LoS range of >100km at optimum altitude?

Let's not forget that IAF was the first to attack on 26th Feb, they would have surely given out their tactics. Yes PAF did show them some of their tactics but successful airforces evolve their strategies and learn from experiences.

I am sure PAF does not a single war plan for India.

What happened in 65 and 71 was according to that era and machines that were involved, now radars and airdefenses of both the airforces are lethal and future startegies are employed keeping current resources in mind.

 

[mingle]

IAF was prepared for a simpler strike, similar to theirs at Balakot. What IAF was not prepared for were the complex divisive tactics of PAF prior to the strike and the EW tactics employed during the skirmish.


Most people have the misled impression that only 24x PAF fighters got airborne shortly before 1000 and simply moved towards the LoC. If I recall the OSINT reports correctly, Pakistani skies were buzzing with PAF aircrafts in multiple sectors since 0800. That means for roughly 2 hours PAF conducted extremely dense BARCAPs along the LoC & IB, while not crossing the 10km buffer of LoC/IB, hence wearing the IAF out and creating chaotic confusion. That's why PAF's intrusion was met by a meager 8x IAF fighters. There are also reports that the Phalcon AWACS was not on station when PAF intruded. It appears that IA had not deployed SAMs in the LoC area, neither they had enough assets airborne for active jamming of PAF aircrafts.

This does not means that IAF is any lesser than PAF. IAF employed its own mix of covert and divisive tactics before intruding to strike Balakot with SOWs. Both air forces simply managed to create a localized environment of air superiority in the respective sectors of air space, prior to executing their respective air strikes.

Considering a future conflict, the entity which has benefited the most from this skirmish, is the one that got to learn the most. Glaring holes in IAF's armor were exposed by PAF, while on the other hand IAF employed relatively simpler tactics during the Balakot strike, exposing next to nothing of PAF. Resultantly, IAF will now go for better BVRs, more AWACS & AEWs, more ECM equipment etc. Overall, this skirmish has a lot of similarities with PAF's dominance over IAF in '65, which led to complacency.


It is true, but sometimes things boil down to a simple fact that whether you have enough resources to buy new equipment. India can sustain plugging the chinks in its armor, Pakistan can't. Like I gave an example, IAF's bases are a lot well protected than PAF's, and PAF still hasn't found a way to conduct anti-airfield ops without getting shot down in huge numbers.

This is exactly the sort of feel-good bravado that led to '71.

71 performance of Airforce was not bad but don't mix apple and oranges. 71 was more complex than simple one sweeping statement.

 

[Talon]

Is it the same reason they had to go in much further, despite the H4's comms pod having an LoS range of >100km at optimum altitude?

Maybe because they wanted them to show we can get deep inside your territory.

 

[mingle]

Let's not forget that IAF was the first to attack on 26th Feb, they would have surely given out their tactics. Yes PAF did show them some of their tactics but successful airforces evolve their strategies and learn from experiences.

I am sure PAF does not a single war plan for India.

What happened in 65 and 71 was according to that era and machines that were involved, now radars and airdefenses of both the airforces are lethal and future startegies are employed keeping current resources in mind.

Tactics planes keep evolving and keep changing. This is first dog fight between Pak and India after 48yrs. We may don't see anymore dog fight again beacuse tech is changing plus media is changing so the geo politics nobody believes that India would give in on Masood Azher only to China pak and US.

 

[Falcon26]

IAF was prepared for a simpler strike, similar to theirs at Balakot. What IAF was not prepared for were the complex divisive tactics of PAF prior to the strike and the EW tactics employed during the skirmish.


Most people have the misled impression that only 24x PAF fighters got airborne shortly before 1000 and simply moved towards the LoC. If I recall the OSINT reports correctly, Pakistani skies were buzzing with PAF aircrafts in multiple sectors since 0800. That means for roughly 2 hours PAF conducted extremely dense BARCAPs along the LoC & IB, while not crossing the 10km buffer of LoC/IB, hence wearing the IAF out and creating chaotic confusion. That's why PAF's intrusion was met by a meager 8x IAF fighters. There are also reports that the Phalcon AWACS was not on station when PAF intruded. It appears that IA had not deployed SAMs in the LoC area, neither they had enough assets airborne for active jamming of PAF aircrafts.

This does not means that IAF is any lesser than PAF. IAF employed its own mix of covert and divisive tactics before intruding to strike Balakot with SOWs. Both air forces simply managed to create a localized environment of air superiority in the respective sectors of air space, prior to executing their respective air strikes.

Considering a future conflict, the entity which has benefited the most from this skirmish, is the one that got to learn the most. Glaring holes in IAF's armor were exposed by PAF, while on the other hand IAF employed relatively simpler tactics during the Balakot strike, exposing next to nothing of PAF. Resultantly, IAF will now go for better BVRs, more AWACS & AEWs, more ECM equipment etc. Overall, this skirmish has a lot of similarities with PAF's dominance over IAF in '65, which led to complacency.


It is true, but sometimes things boil down to a simple fact that whether you have enough resources to buy new equipment. India can sustain plugging the chinks in its armor, Pakistan can't. Like I gave an example, IAF's bases are a lot well protected than PAF's, and PAF still hasn't found a way to conduct anti-airfield ops without getting shot down in huge numbers.

This is exactly the sort of feel-good bravado that led to '71.

I dispute that their bases are well protected. PAF fairly easily targeted locations of interest on feb 27th without any challenge. Technology alone don’t change outcomes. If it did, the Arabs would have prevailed over the Israelis.

Pakistanis need to get over ‘71. No military could have won in that context. You have deeply hostile population, invigorated militants which have support of locals and neighboring country, an enemy already 10x your size and if that wasn’t enough, Pakistan had to fight in a territory separated in excess 1000 miles by India. The US failed in Vietnam without USSR & China not even formally being involved. The US is a super power. Pakistan isn’t. No country super power or otherwise prevails in a hostile environment hundreds of miles away. 1971 was an anomaly which won’t happen again. Even then, the PAF stood up to India even in the Bengal theatre.

 

[Talon]

All these things would be considered mere conjectures, unless some proofs are produced by ISPR or PAF.

Yeah I dont believe this story to be true.It seems funny to me, dragging an injured pilot across the LOC.

 

[mingle]

I dispute that their bases are well protected. PAF fairly easily targeted locations of interest on feb 27th without any challenge. Technology alone don’t change outcomes. If it did, the Arabs would have prevailed over the Israelis.

Pakistanis need to get over ‘71. No military could have won in that context. You have deeply hostile population, invigorated militants which have support of locals and neighboring country, an enemy already 10x your size and if that wasn’t enough, Pakistan had to fight in a territory separated in excess 1000 miles by India. The US failed in Vietnam without USSR & China not even formally being involved. The US is a super power. Pakistan isn’t. No country super power or otherwise prevails in a hostile environment hundreds of miles away. 1971 was an anomaly which won’t happen again. Even then, the PAF stood up to India even in the Bengal theatre.

India battered in Srilanka.

 

[airomerix]

No As per our esteemed Think Tank Analyists & ACM Sb @The Deterrent @pakistanipower your FOB were on Holiday, who ever that was fly at the moment were in lala land and those 2 x aircraft (MiG-21 & Su-30MKI) were playing "lets lock him haha i lock him oh he lock me...oh" because its a big NO to shoot any Indian Aircraft. as per @airomerix

SO..27th Feb 19 never happened!



may getting ready for Indian response never seen or heard before....they are afraid cat is getting out the bag!

I will not respond to your trolling. If you believe we shot down 10 jets. Then it is your right. For all I care.