PAF Pilots To Be Honoured

[Maarkhoor]

just like downing of each other's aircrafts

Which aircraft IAF downed? We did't loose any aircraft but shoot down MIG-21 and SU-30 of IAF.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Widely reported, but no proof - just like downing of each other's aircrafts.

Which missile did Abhi use to shoot down F-16? Because all 2 r77 and 2 r73 were recovered, meaning the two parachutes belong to SU-30.

 

[TsAr]

Here is what I do not get. By what fragment of anyone's imagination was IAF not already gearing up for an update of their systems? And already does not field some of the most extensive ECM equipment in the neighborhood? Have you seen their orders, lately? Have you read about the ex- that they conduct with Israelis and Singaporeans?

Also, what makes you believe that PAF EW war planning gave up anything more than what was absolutely necessary for that fraction of an operation?

I know this for a 'fact' and almost first hand that JF-17s did not even turn their on-board ECM/ECCM on. They were asked not to. PAF would be considered an absolutely childish organization, if it just went in all guns blazing - knowing what IAF had in store on the other side. It was a calibrated and proportionate response - all over. Not just in some ways.

As for EW in itself is an ever-changing war tool, it does not just sit there in its present shape and form, every single time it goes up in the air. If you think that PAF will not be updating more of its machines with ECM, you're mistaken - check the updates specs for JF-17s.

As for tactics, both air forces train for the adversary to bring their A-game on the day it counts. It'll be the same in all future war scenarios b/w Pak and Ind.

Very well written sir......

 

[kursed]

IMO the quantum of retaliation from a less equipped PAF was surprising for us and the IAF. Govt. of India, IA & IAF in the retaliatory strikes always tried to portray them as an anti-terrorist action and not specifically against your armed forces.

I beg to disagree. The entire political rhetoric, before and after the strikes was to suggest that there was a new 'norm' in place, whereby IAF will conduct unilateral A2G strikes on whim, inside mainland Pakistani territory - not much unlike how US undertook drone ops in the then FATA.

Except, there was absolutely no need felt necessary by IAF or Gov of India to share any credible intel with the world, or public at large if the strikes took place against 'actual' terrorist targets of any sort. It was a bombing run, which just claimed to have hit some terrorist hideout. The idea was to push for a rhetoric that suggested that now exists a different and new tactical paradigm b/w Pakistan and India, whereby Pakistani non-conventional deterrence has failed to keep Indian conventional forces from attacking mainland Pakistan. This particular attempt is precisely what was responded to!

 

[Ghost 125]

I beg to disagree. The entire political rhetoric, before and after the strikes was to suggest that there was a new 'norm' in place, whereby IAF will conduct unilateral A2G strikes on whim, inside mainland Pakistani territory - not much unlike how US undertook drone ops in the then FATA.

Except, there was absolutely no need felt necessary by IAF or Gov of India to share any credible intel with the world, or public at large if the strikes took place against 'actual' terrorist targets of any sort. It was a bombing run, which just claimed to have hit some terrorist hideout. The idea was to push for a rhetoric that suggested that now exists a different and new tactical paradigm b/w Pakistan and India, whereby Pakistani non-conventional deterrence has failed to keep Indian conventional forces from attacking mainland Pakistan. This particular attempt is precisely what was responded to!

spot on

 

[The Deterrent]

I concur with your general line of argument but the IAF backed off for a reason, and Modi run to the nuclear button for a reason. The global consensus is that the IAF was hit and that it was hit hard and bloody. SOW were used by both countries during the February skirmishes.

IAF didn't back off, the required escalatory response wasn't simply feasible anymore to be executed by IAF, without getting shot down in numbers. PAF wouldn't have let IAF conduct another incursion successfully.

Here is what I do not get. By what fragment of anyone's imagination was IAF not already gearing up for an update of their systems? And already does not field some of the most extensive ECM equipment in the neighborhood? Have you seen their orders, lately? Have you read about the ex- that they conduct with Israelis and Singaporeans?

Yes, indeed IAF already had plans of purchasing and up-gradation all across the fleet. But if you've noted, those plans have been marred by painfully slow bureaucracy and decision making.
Allow me to rephrase. IAF will now AGGRESSIVELY address its short-comings. Better BVRs for its Su-30MKIs, Meteors for Mirage-2000s, a squadron of MiG-29s (surplus from Russia), production of Netra AEWs in larger numbers, fast-tracking the delayed 02x Phalcon AWACS induction, immediate construction of HASs for the Su-30MKIs, additional 36x Rafales (totaling 72x)...and so on. We have sort of 'opened their eyes', so to say...not saying that it shouldn't have been done, its just an undesirable outcome of the entire episode.

Also, what makes you believe that PAF EW war planning gave up anything more than what was absolutely necessary for that fraction of an operation?

I do agree that in order for the particular operation to succeed, all the assets that were employed were necessary, and that there was no 'overkill'. However I believe that the DA-20 was an ace up our sleeve, the employment and resultant exposure of which might provide undesirable lessons to the enemy.

I know this for a 'fact' and almost first hand that JF-17s did not even turn their on-board ECM/ECCM on. They were asked not to. PAF would be considered an absolutely childish organization, if it just went in all guns blazing - knowing what IAF had in store on the other side. It was a calibrated and proportionate response - all over. Not just in some ways.

Glad to know that!

As for EW in itself is an ever-changing war tool, it does not just sit there in its present shape and form, every single time it goes up in the air. If you think that PAF will not be updating more of its machines with ECM, you're mistaken - check the updates specs for JF-17s.

Agreed, PAF will continue to add more ECM capabilities.

As for tactics, both air forces train for the adversary to bring their A-game on the day it counts. It'll be the same in all future war scenarios b/w Pak and Ind.

Understandable.
Great post BTW, balanced and accurate thoughts. You should contribute more often, if possible.

I never said that the PAF responded unprofessionally. I pointed out the difference in the mindset of Pakistani and Indian armed forces. One has a high profile in the minds of the general populace and responds in a manner it feels fit to sustain that perception. IMO the quantum of retaliation from a less equipped PAF was surprising for us and the IAF. Govt. of India, IA & IAF in the retaliatory strikes always tried to portray them as an anti-terrorist action and not specifically against your armed forces. In some sense we were always looking for a de-escalation. On our side, the political bombast should have been much softer.

This "mindset" logic is flawed. Aren't the armed forces at the disposal of elected representatives of the people? Applying the same logic to India, didn't GoI order IAF to conduct an airstrike for the sake of perception and 'retaliation'? In which world does a nuclear-armed foe not respond to (attempted) airstrikes conducted on its territory?

Regardless of the fact that nothing was hit at Balakot, as @kursed said, GoI attempted to establish a new norm by challenging Pakistan's conventional deterrence. Pakistan merely responded to convey that such actions will have proportionate consequences.

Widely reported, but no proof - just like downing of each other's aircrafts.

Two sitting Prime Ministers have claimed it. Imran Khan mentioned it to the National Assembly the very next day on 28th Feb and Narendra Modi recently amateurishly termed it "Qatal ki Raat" (the night of murder, i.e. 27-28 Feb).
The only conclusive proof that you seek would come from sat images of deployed missile TELs, which is really hard to obtain in the public domain.

 

[SIPRA]

I beg to disagree. The entire political rhetoric, before and after the strikes was to suggest that there was a new 'norm' in place, whereby IAF will conduct unilateral A2G strikes on whim, inside mainland Pakistani territory - not much unlike how US undertook drone ops in the then FATA.

Except, there was absolutely no need felt necessary by IAF or Gov of India to share any credible intel with the world, or public at large if the strikes took place against 'actual' terrorist targets of any sort. It was a bombing run, which just claimed to have hit some terrorist hideout. The idea was to push for a rhetoric that suggested that now exists a different and new tactical paradigm b/w Pakistan and India, whereby Pakistani non-conventional deterrence has failed to keep Indian conventional forces from attacking mainland Pakistan. This particular attempt is precisely what was responded to!

Excellent analysis, with a lot of clarity in thinking.

 

[Cuirassier]

I beg to disagree. The entire political rhetoric, before and after the strikes was to suggest that there was a new 'norm' in place, whereby IAF will conduct unilateral A2G strikes on whim, inside mainland Pakistani territory - not much unlike how US undertook drone ops in the then FATA.

Except, there was absolutely no need felt necessary by IAF or Gov of India to share any credible intel with the world, or public at large if the strikes took place against 'actual' terrorist targets of any sort. It was a bombing run, which just claimed to have hit some terrorist hideout. The idea was to push for a rhetoric that suggested that now exists a different and new tactical paradigm b/w Pakistan and India, whereby Pakistani non-conventional deterrence has failed to keep Indian conventional forces from attacking mainland Pakistan. This particular attempt is precisely what was responded to!

Spot on sir.

 

[MastanKhan]

Here is what I do not get. By what fragment of anyone's imagination was IAF not already gearing up for an update of their systems? And already does not field some of the most extensive ECM equipment in the neighborhood? Have you seen their orders, lately? Have you read about the ex- that they conduct with Israelis and Singaporeans?

Also, what makes you believe that PAF EW war planning gave up anything more than what was absolutely necessary for that fraction of an operation?

I know this for a 'fact' and almost first hand that JF-17s did not even turn their on-board ECM/ECCM on. They were asked not to. PAF would be considered an absolutely childish organization, if it just went in all guns blazing - knowing what IAF had in store on the other side. It was a calibrated and proportionate response - all over. Not just in some ways.

As for EW in itself is an ever-changing war tool, it does not just sit there in its present shape and form, every single time it goes up in the air. If you think that PAF will not be updating more of its machines with ECM, you're mistaken - check the updates specs for JF-17s.

As for tactics, both air forces train for the adversary to bring their A-game on the day it counts. It'll be the same in all future war scenarios b/w Pak and Ind.

Hi,

If you know it then why are you confirming it---. Better to bash the Paf for fcking up rather than confirming that they did not---.

 

[Slides]

Hi,

If you know it then why are you confirming it---. Better to bash the Paf for fcking up rather than confirming that they did not---.

Why don't most of your posts make any sense? Can you write better English or switch to Urdu?

 

[MastanKhan]

Why don't most of your posts make any sense? Can you write better English or switch to Urdu?

Hi,

Hahahahahaha---. So---you don't know what I am saying---huhnnnn. Okay---.

You are not the only one---.

Sometimes I don't either---so I have to ask myself---what did I mean when I wrote that---.

I feel better now---knowing that there are others who don't know what I am saying---and I am not the only one---thank Allah for small and big favords---. I hope you feel better now knowing that you have some company---I already feel a surge of relief.

 

[kursed]

Yes, indeed IAF already had plans of purchasing and up-gradation all across the fleet. But if you've noted, those plans have been marred by painfully slow bureaucracy and decision making.
Allow me to rephrase. IAF will now AGGRESSIVELY address its short-comings. Better BVRs for its Su-30MKIs, Meteors for Mirage-2000s, a squadron of MiG-29s (surplus from Russia), production of Netra AEWs in larger numbers, fast-tracking the delayed 02x Phalcon AWACS induction, immediate construction of HASs for the Su-30MKIs, additional 36x Rafales (totaling 72x)...and so on. We have sort of 'opened their eyes', so to say...not saying that it shouldn't have been done, its just an undesirable outcome of the entire episode.

Meteors were always going to be part of Indian ORBAT, whether or not this skirmish had taken place. IAF is being propped up to take on the Chinese, Pakistanis are supposed to lay over and play dead. All of their capabilities are now measured against what the Chinese have, not Pakistanis. At best, what may have happened 1 year down the lane, would happen 6 months down. There’s nothing else that has changed.

I do agree that in order for the particular operation to succeed, all the assets that were employed were necessary, and that there was no 'overkill'. However I believe that the DA-20 was an ace up our sleeve, the employment and resultant exposure of which might provide undesirable lessons to the enemy.

DA-20 is actually not the ace up our sleeves. IMHO, Pakistan only opted to partially reveal a ‘French’ upgraded system to the Indians, because they do think that its specs and nature of systems would already have been shared with the Indians under some guise, should a proper war to happen.

Pakistan’s other European, Chinese and Turkish origin systems were neither put into the game, nor used in anyway whatsoever. They are ‘meant for that future battle that’s to come’.

 

[messiach]

Yes. Agreed.

DA-20 is actually not the ace up our sleeves. IMHO, Pakistan only opted to partially reveal a ‘French’ upgraded system to the Indians, because they do think that its specs and nature of systems would already have been shared with the Indians under some guise, should a proper war to happen.
.

 

[SQ8]

Meteors were always going to be part of Indian ORBAT, whether or not this skirmish had taken place. IAF is being propped up to take on the Chinese, Pakistanis are supposed to lay over and play dead. All of their capabilities are now measured against what the Chinese have, not Pakistanis. At best, what may have happened 1 year down the lane, would happen 6 months down. There’s nothing else that has changed.



DA-20 is actually not the ace up our sleeves. IMHO, Pakistan only opted to partially reveal a ‘French’ upgraded system to the Indians, because they do think that its specs and nature of systems would already have been shared with the Indians under some guise, should a proper war to happen.

Pakistan’s other European, Chinese and Turkish origin systems were neither put into the game, nor used in anyway whatsoever. They are ‘meant for that future battle that’s to come’.

Neither was the DA-20 the only EW emitter in play.

 

[The Deterrent]

Meteors were always going to be part of Indian ORBAT, whether or not this skirmish had taken place. IAF is being propped up to take on the Chinese, Pakistanis are supposed to lay over and play dead. All of their capabilities are now measured against what the Chinese have, not Pakistanis. At best, what may have happened 1 year down the lane, would happen 6 months down. There’s nothing else that has changed.

I humbly disagree. Barring a few obvious items, IAF will accelerate procurement/development of almost everything thats necessary, because of this skirmish. Just compare the timelines of induction of the items I mentioned before, and see how they pan out in the near future.
Massive goof-ups like MMRCA are not going to happen anymore.

DA-20 is actually not the ace up our sleeves. IMHO, Pakistan only opted to partially reveal a ‘French’ upgraded system to the Indians, because they do think that its specs and nature of systems would already have been shared with the Indians under some guise, should a proper war to happen.

Pakistan’s other European, Chinese and Turkish origin systems were neither put into the game, nor used in anyway whatsoever. They are ‘meant for that future battle that’s to come’.

Pretty glad to hear that!