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PAF ordered to shoot down US drones invading Pakistani airspace: Air Chief Sohail Aman

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I see it differently.

US Army and Pakistan Army exchanged fire for 2 hours straight which resulted in destruction of two outposts and numerous casualties on our side.

Pakistan Army (the entire institution) was really angry and perceived the incident as an act of aggression. You can question the ethics of COAS Kiyani but he calculated his options and shut down the supply routes to Afghanistan until an apology was received.


It was not a charade but another act of aggression from the US; see post no. 218 in page 15 for details.

There [is] a major asymmetry between the military capabilities of the US and Pakistan and this reality is openly acknowledge in the Abbottabad Commission Report.


Governments do not tend to be sell outs in the manner you presume.

Since we cannot manage our economy right, what do you expect?


Afghanistan is in ruins! What else you want to see? US eradicating it from the face of the Earth?

Taliban is mostly good at harassing ANA and killing civilians. US Army has killed thousands of their combatants in various battles across Afghanistan since 2001. I am not sure what fights you have been watching.

What happened to the Taliban Spring Offensive by the way? They were about to take Kabul, weren't they?


They were reasonably strong but since US steamrolled them, a layperson gets the impression that they were easy pickings. I tell you that they were not.

Iraq, in particular, was extremely well-equipped and battle-hardened by 3rd World Standards in 1991.

Yes, I have seen what Iran can do; could not defeat Iraq in a span of 8 years. Also google "Operation Praying Mantis." Why do you think Iran compromised on its nuclear program in 2014? Because shit was about to hit the fan for them.

North Korea might be strong in regional context but no match for the US; Fat Kim knows this very well. This is why North Korea defines the trajectory of its missiles very carefully.


They have relevant technologies to counter them. Have you been living under the rock?


Evidence?


We will see.
ok my friend, lets leave this who did what and what was the reaction!what will happen is case of war breaks loose(GOD forbid)! lets gets more productive what do you suggest pakistan should so? bend to US will? let them do whatever they want?? what do u think is the solution?
 
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ok my friend, lets leave this who did what and what was the reaction!what will happen is case of war breaks loose(GOD forbid)! lets gets more productive what do you suggest pakistan should so? bend to US will? let them do whatever they want?? what do u think is the solution?
Brother,

I will respond tomorrow! Need to rest. Inshallah, we will have a constructive discussion about this matter.
 
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I do not know if it is possible, Afte Air Chief's warning / statement, to warn/warning shots and if possible communicate to show intentions of shooting down if intruder is not pulled back from Pak air space. If warnings fail and no indication of retreat by the intruder, then shoot it down.

It would have been nice, if Army chief also conveyed the same message while meeting with US representatives and civilian Govt express the same intentions to show the seriousness and strong message from civil and Military leadership of being on the same page when it comes to National security.
 
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The F-22/F-35 are not invulnerable to jamming but "incredibly difficult to jam."

FYI: http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the-f-35-and-advanced-sensor-fusion/

Keep in mind that F-22 Raptor can not only detect targets from over 300 miles away but incorporate powerful electronic warfare capabilities of its own. Another thing is that the radar on the F-22 changes frequencies over 1,000 times per second to deter detection by enemy forces.

Of course it is difficult to jam, its an advanced AESA what do you expect?, i never said or implied otherwise. As one military technology advances, so does the technology meant to counter it. I don't see the relevance of the link to Lockheed Martin white paper describing "sensor fusion".
Modern EW systems are designed to counter modern threats, in the example i gave above, the manufacturers claim that their system can jam AWACS, obviously the AESA on an AWACS will have more raw power and more processing power as compared to the smaller AN/APG-77/81 on a fighter, making it harder to jam.


Secondly, they are subjected to all kinds of countermeasures in the RED FLAG exercises*: https://theaviationist.com/tag/lockheed-martin-f-22-raptor/page/11/

*they learn to fight in disadvantaged conditions:

"One priority is learning how to carry out missions in hostile territory when radar is offline, radio links are compromised, and GPS signals are jammed."

This article is very telling: http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/raptor-strikes-180957782/#2hJkwdlZUFufxuBS.99

That describes part of an an advanced course that have for their f-22 pilots. These courses teach their pilots how to deal with different conditions. Nothing unusual about it, all professional air forces do that.
For context (from the link you posted):

"F-22 pilots also use the simulator at Joint Base Langley-Eustis, and a sophisticated sim at Marietta, Georgia, operated by Lockheed Martin. And before the 94th’s next deployment overseas, the squadron will get more training at Nellis Air Force Base near Las Vegas.

For a select few F-22 pilots, this may include the Ph.D.-level course offered by the 433rd Weapons Squadron. It’s got room for just six pilots a year because the regimen requires a lot of flying over five months. Without giving many specifics about its classified contents, Lieutenant Colonel Robert Brown, the commander of the 433rd, described one part of the course syllabus, the 600-page F-22 tactics handbook. One priority is learning how to carry out missions in hostile territory when radar is offline, radio links are compromised, and GPS signals are jammed. "

The fact that they are giving priority to training for such conditions is also very telling.

And I don't need to highlight their kill ratios in simulated attacks, do I?

You think they can achieve such ratios while their radars, radio links and GPS signals are jammed? They can achieve such ratios because they can see their enemies while their enemies are totally blind to them. When they can see, track and engage the legacy fighters and the other guy has no idea until its too late, then such ratios are expected.

A number of members here are literally clueless about the capabilities of these two aircraft, brother. They just look at the shape of these aircraft and imagine passive radars.

Saddam Hussein had similar mindset. God help us.

One must never underestimate their adversary. But at the same time it is equally dangerous to
overestimate them too much, elevating them to almost mythical status as that leads to demoralization which saps your will to fight back.
 
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Do you see me citing product brochures to complement my arguments in my posts? LOL


Scores of citizens, journalists, lawyers and analysts perceived Vietnam War as a failure.

To relatively smarter minds (military officials in particular); Vietnam War offered a great deal of insight for developing new kinds of weapon systems and doctrines that would revolutionize conventional warfare tactics in the years to come. Consequently, American battlefield performance in the Persian Gulf War (1991) stunned the entire world.

Back in the days of the Vietnam War, some of the premium combat aircraft of the time such as F-4 Phantom II, F-100 Super Sabre and F-105D Thunderchief suffered numerous losses in the battlefield. In the aftermath, a new generation of aircraft emerged such as F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 and each has performed well in various conflicts around the world to date. In-fact, F-15 series aircraft have most impressive combat record in history.

You mentioned Tomcats in the list of failures. Are you kidding me? F-14 has a very impressive combat record.

PAC-1 system (intended to provide AA/AD coverage to key installations in the Persian Gulf War 1991) was premature in the aspect of intercepting ballistic missiles. Its successors in PAC-2 and PAC-3 (latest) represent a major technological leap in the role of intercepting ballistic missiles, with numerous kills in the battlefield. For example: http://www.operationtelic.co.uk/documents/32aamdc-oif-patriot-sep03.pdf

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F-22 Raptor is the outcome of a wide range of lessons drawn from various conflicts around the world and designed to operate in the most hostile of environments. The true extent of its capabilities are classified but even its known aspects are sufficient to invoke "shock and awe" emotions in readers. You may ignore product brochures but you need to read this report: http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_32.pdf

Also, read the book from Bill Sweetman. Very informative.


Imperfections of that article notwithstanding (see the responses below it); if you are referring to the 2014 incident, are you in the position to assert that the F-22 Raptor (in question) was not equipped with an RCS enhancer* at the time?

*Luneburg lens device

Additionally, is the technique (in question) reliable enough to ensure successful implementation of the KILL CHAIN process on time? Nope.

Food for thought:

1. EMCON
2. LPI
3. Non-emitting devices
4. APG-77

You may also find this discussion enlightening: https://www.quora.com/How-can-passi...itions-of-the-F-22-and-other-stealth-aircraft

F-22 Raptor is stealthy in numerous ways, not only in the aspect of its shape. Unless you have a great deal of understanding of the design and capabilities of this aircraft (unlikely), you are not in the position to assert with any degree of confidence that what kind of system is effective against it. At most, you will find some 'theoretical assumptions' on the web. Equally bothersome is the observation that you do not seem to be acquainted with the limitations of a passive radar system. Let me help you in this regard:

http://canadianartillery.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/9-Passive-and-Low-Frequency-Radar.pdf
http://aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-detection-claims

You will notice that much of the emphasis in the aforementioned articles is on the shape of the aircraft but a complete lack of argument about other principles of stealth.

The arm-chair generals here may brag about some countermeasures against the most sophisticated stealthy aircraft in existence; did it ever occur to you that why Russia and China continue to pour billions of dollars in stealth-related projects?


The fact that Americans managed to develop F-22 Raptor in the 1990s, affirms only one thing: their defense sector is laughably ahead of the same in other states.

"A declassified 1985 CIA report correctly predicted that the Soviet Union’s first major counterstealth effort would be to develop new VHF radars that would reduce the disadvantages of long wavelengths: lack of mobility, poor resolution and susceptibility to clutter."

Americans anticipated this shit in 1980s; possibly earlier.

Americans have extensive experience in developing powerful radar systems (of all sorts) themselves. They don't need insight from Russia and/or China in regards to looking for ways to detect a stealthy aircraft; they are in a good position to experiment in all sort of ways themselves. In-fact, Australia have a 'more convincing solution' than either Russia or China at present.

F-22 Raptor minimizes its chances of detection in a number of ways and not only through its shape; I have provided some hints above. This discussion also offers meaningful insight: https://www.quora.com/How-is-that-t...iving-a-chance-for-the-enemy-to-trace-it-back

Another thing to keep in mind is that how USAF operates on the whole. It specializes in NETWORK-CENTRIC warfare techniques and takes cues from a number of surveillance capabilities at its disposal from land, sea and space to acquire unprecedented situational awareness in the battlefield. I do not have the time to explain to you how different kinds of [USAF] assets work in tandem to disable/destroy a wide-range of targets in an hostile environment. However, it shall be kept in mind that one of the earliest targets they are going to hit are the radar systems.

[Humor]If you are near a radar system and you learn about USAF operating in the region, run as far from it as possible.[/Humor]

On May 2, when the raid on Abbottabad occurred; stealthy choppers weren't the only assets in use. A number of other assets were employed to negate Pakistani defenses because the intent was to prevent an effective response from PAF by blinding it.

ACM of the time confessed in the Abbottabad Commission Report that none of the [active] radar systems picked up any unusual activity during that night. When the two F-16 jets were scrambled to intercept any intruder after the alert from COAS, their 'situational awareness' was terribly low at the time.

To give you an idea:

mapspear.jpg


It might be possible to counter a semi-stealthy drone (RQ-170 for instance) in isolation with the right kind of defenses in the right place at the right time as witnessed in Iran (their account is dubious by the way because the possibility of malfunction cannot be ruled out) but when a wide-range of sophisticated assets are working in tandem [NETWORK-CENTRIC warfare techniques], they tend to overcome shortcomings of each other with their respective strengths and the resultant kinetic force is virtually impossible to tackle for a country like Pakistan. Even Russia and China are lacking in this spectrum.

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J-20 is noticeably different aircraft than F-22 Raptor and capabilities of both are not expected to be similar. Chinese advances in the domain of stealth are not clearly understood but certain shortcomings are known. What we get to see on the surface does not tells us much about the level of sophistication beneath. Both China and Russia do not match US in this area, IMO. Nonetheless, Chinese advances in this area are impressive in their own right. Decent information here: http://www.css.ethz.ch/en/services/digital-library/articles/article.html/192616/pdf


See above.

It may not be jamming but they made sure that our radar systems would not capture 'unusual activity' during the course of that raid. How they pulled it off, only they can tell.


I do not expect 'shooting of a drone' to lead to full-scale war (God forbid) but Trump administration is unpredictable and this kind of incident [might] open the door to "unforeseen consequences." If this administration is taking Afghanistan seriously then the best course of action is to define SOPs for them in regards to Pakistan.


F-22 Raptors were active over Syrian airspace at the time.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/how-f-22-deconflicting-us-russia-operations-over-syria
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...over-syria-lockheed-martin-f-22-stealth-20110


Dude, seriously?

F-22 and F-35 are equipped with some of the most powerful sensors yet devised and you need to understand how they function. Go through all the links that I have provided above. This discussion will also help you: http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9268

For the F-35: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/unde...on-system-of-f-35-jsf-for-the-dummies.472240/

Even if you (somehow) manage to interfere with the sensors of a single aircraft (F22 or F35), it can draw information from other assets (F22; F35; AWACS; more). For example: http://www.sldinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/21st-Century-Approach-to-Tron-Warfare.pdf

Google "TRON warfare."


Right.

F-117 is nowhere close to the capabilities of F-22 Raptor, unfortunately.


In an exercise, F-22 seem to be operating at close proximity to other aircraft and relevant restrictions are enforced. Under these circumstances, they can be spotted and/or engaged.

In-fact, look at this story: https://theaviationist.com/2016/07/...hermal-camera-of-a-crime-fighting-helicopter/

A helicopter could see a [stationary] F-22 Raptor via thermal imaging. Unfortunately, their is no time for these kind of stunts in a war.

F-22 Raptor is designed to execute "first-look, first-kill" mission protocols in a war.

FYI:

Behind this first-look, first-kill capability is the F-22’s ability to establish superior situational awareness concerning target detection, location, identification, and lethality. The IAS provides the pilot situational awareness well Beyond Visual Range (BVR). Data fusion from multiple sensors is used to achieve longrange detection, high confidence BVR-Identification (BVRID) and highly accurate target tracking for BVR weapons employment and/or threat avoidance. The IAS directly contributes to increased survivability by providing threat warning and countermeasures against threat systems. This first-look, first-kill requirement depends on the ability to collect data from multiple onboard sensors, to develop a highly accurate track file on enemy targets, and to do so before the F-22 is detected by enemy sensors. Each target track file is continually and automatically updated without pilot intervention. Targets receive increasingly tighter tracking accuracies as they penetrate a series of tactical engagement boundaries surrounding the F-22 as shown in Figure 32.1. From outermost inward, these “globes” are called (1) Situation Awareness Initial Track/ID, (2) Engage/Avoid Decision, (3) BVRID Initial AMRAAM Launch, (4) Initial Threat Missile Launch, and (5) Threat Missile Lethal Envelope. The globe boundary concept, inherent in the tactical software design, supports both (1) efficient sensor usage and (2) automated sensor tasking. It provides the pilot adequate time to make tactical decisions (such as engage, avoid, commit weapons, or expend countermeasures) instead of controlling sensors.

Source: http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_32.pdf

You won't witness any dogfights or games in a war much like in the exercises; targets will be wiped out as soon as they are spotted.


F-22 Raptor is evolving by the hour as we speak.

https://scout.com/military/warrior/...New-Weapons-Upgraded-AIM-9X-Missile-101452349
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-mip.htm
https://defensesystems.com/articles/2017/03/14/f22.aspx

You must be getting paid well.
 
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these orders seem to be tested very soon. with today's news about unilateral action by USA i think they will launch drone strikes in near future. the nation will see that whether these are empty slogans or converted into reality. personally i dont think our govt and military can take risk of shooting US drone. but one thing is certain that if they launch a drone strike paf chief wont get any place to hide. the statement of shooting drones should have been issued by concerned govt official but the politicians are cunning people.
 
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Well this is Pakistan not north korea...... Ab idhar udhar ki marnae se kuch nahi hona. It was afirst in many insults yo come our way.
 
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Of course it is difficult to jam, its an advanced AESA what do you expect?, i never said or implied otherwise. As one military technology advances, so does the technology meant to counter it. I don't see the relevance of the link to Lockheed Martin white paper describing "sensor fusion".
Modern EW systems are designed to counter modern threats, in the example i gave above, the manufacturers claim that their system can jam AWACS, obviously the AESA on an AWACS will have more raw power and more processing power as compared to the smaller AN/APG-77/81 on a fighter, making it harder to jam.
Bro,

AN/APG-77 radar system is a class of its own in design and functionality. It has fantastic target detection range (300+ miles) and LPI capabilities. Keep in mind that the purpose of F-22 Raptor is to achieve air superiority in the skies in combat situations and this is not possible with a stealthy body-frame (only). Why do you think F-22 Raptor is not for sale? See First; Shoot First is the motto.

Even in a public disclosure such as this one in which every radar system is to be praised: http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/ANAPG80AESARadar/Documents/AESA.pdf

Message is loud and clear:

"This radar provides an unprecedented capability in air-to-air combat, allowing the pilot to track and shoot at multiple threat aircraft before the adversary’s radar detects the F-22. Solid-state technology and elimination of mechanical moving parts enables the APG-77 to leap ahead of current standards for system reliability and field sustainability."


The more I learn about the design of APG-77, the more I am surprised.

Yes, EA-18G Growler is a potent jammer and a squadron of this aircraft might be sufficient to disrupt offensive operations of virtually any country but disabling TRON formations of F-22 Raptor is not a realistic assumption at this juncture or even in the foreseeable future. Besides; EA-18G Growler and F-22 Raptor (formations) are unlikely to encounter each other as adversaries in the foreseeable future, rather complement each other in the battlefield.

However, US is war-gaming with all of its assets in its RED FLAG excercises, and they are aware of the outcomes.

FYI: http://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/130616/f-22-excels-at-establishing-air-dominance/

That describes part of an an advanced course that have for their f-22 pilots. These courses teach their pilots how to deal with different conditions. Nothing unusual about it, all professional air forces do that.
For context (from the link you posted):

"F-22 pilots also use the simulator at Joint Base Langley-Eustis, and a sophisticated sim at Marietta, Georgia, operated by Lockheed Martin. And before the 94th’s next deployment overseas, the squadron will get more training at Nellis Air Force Base near Las Vegas.

For a select few F-22 pilots, this may include the Ph.D.-level course offered by the 433rd Weapons Squadron. It’s got room for just six pilots a year because the regimen requires a lot of flying over five months. Without giving many specifics about its classified contents, Lieutenant Colonel Robert Brown, the commander of the 433rd, described one part of the course syllabus, the 600-page F-22 tactics handbook. One priority is learning how to carry out missions in hostile territory when radar is offline, radio links are compromised, and GPS signals are jammed. "

The fact that they are giving priority to training for such conditions is also very telling.
Bro,

It is wise to train for all eventualities. Potency of F-22 Raptor notwithstanding, nothing can be taken for granted in the battlefield. In-fact, it is clear to us now that USAF pilots receive training for virtually any contingency and not for high-tech engagements only.

You think they can achieve such ratios while their radars, radio links and GPS signals are jammed? They can achieve such ratios because they can see their enemies while their enemies are totally blind to them. When they can see, track and engage the legacy fighters and the other guy has no idea until its too late, then such ratios are expected.
Bro,

Red Flag exercises feature a high degree of electronic warfare and layered defenses against aggressors. You can bet that even the best of Russian defenses such as S-400 are simulated (if not physically present). Those kill ratios are achieved under these circumstances.

Yes, F-22 Raptors can detect their targets relatively earlier and act. However, you are missing the point. Many of the hypothetical countermeasures [you can imagine] come into play in the Red Flag exercises and still the leaked results tend to be one-sided when TRON formations of F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning are involved.

One must never underestimate their adversary. But at the same time it is equally dangerous to
overestimate them too much, elevating them to almost mythical status as that leads to demoralization which saps your will to fight back.
Bro,

If the opponent in question is known to invest 700 billion USD on its defenses and has fielded the most well-equipped force on the planet, what would you expect?

Of-course, if war is thrusted upon us (God forbid), we have no choice but to resist to the best of our abilities. I have no doubts about the resolve of Pakistani armed forces but we need to be realistic in our expectations from them and I believe that the bulk of resistance will come from the public (assuming an occupation-based scenario). However, I am under no illusion in this case and my knowledge will help me in making an informed choice under the shadow of hostilities.

We cannot take on the US in conventional ways and hope to win; not even close. In-fact, no country can. This is why Russia is working on the notion of hybrid warfare and China is experimenting with both SOFT and HARD aspects of deterrence.

Let us hope that this engagement never materializes.
 
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Whatever the reason, we filed to give appropriate response and faced humiliation. Pak forces have the capacity to take on any challenge, will was (or is) not there. Armed forces are the defenders of our nation...Noora told kiyani stand down and message passed to Air Chief and he ordered back jets. I remember Air Chief saying our radars were OFF because we do not monitor that side 24/7.

Lets hope and pray we do not repeat the same again and show with our actions that we are serious.
I think PPP was in govt during OBL raid. Bechary nooray ki jan chor do [emoji14]
 
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