PAF locked on 9 shoot only two...PAF official....0n 27 Feb....

[TheTallGuy]

I will try to pen my opinion based upon possible thought process in regard to 9 locked IAF jets.

• IAF violated Pakistan Airspace on 26th but wasn't shot?
  • Almost every sane mind argues and most knew as well that Modi pulled a political show after Pulwama. Pulwama was done by a Kashmiri obtaining all the everything for attack from within Indian Occupied Kashmir. I am sure and pattern tells as well that R&AW deliberately let him to have all arrangements & strike, in view of long term gains to help Modi win elections which proved by Modi's reaction. Modi immediately blamed Pakistan and pulled a stunt with the help of Military & Indian Intelligence. IAF plan was to violate the airspace & shoot weapons but cleverly done so within the parameters of ROEs so not to get shot within Pakistan hence, dropped their payload far from target and totally opposed to the firing rules & parameters. IAF knew very well that how much time it has to turn back and save their lives. PAF didn't take a shot under the same ROEs but that couldn't be left without response.

• Beating the IAF so will not look back; scenario:
  • Does that made any sense despite shooting down couple of their jets? They in return came up with awarding Abhinandan with Veer Chakra and then went on to award rest of the fleet with Dodgers designation and now, just heard that the lady who was supposed to save Abhinandan through RT is being awarded for yet another medal. So, whether you shoot them all or one; doesn't matter to an enemy like Modi that has no self respect.

• Shooting down all the fleet so Modi wouldn't re-commit:
  • Can anyone believe that Modi will sit down? an extremist like him will never stop unless total wipe-out as such mentality has no intellect to read about after math but keeps insisting upon bloodshed even it has already costed him fairly. Had it been a self respecting & dignified rival; would have tone down immediately and accepted the white wash even if it was a single jet on that day.

• The consequences of shooting down 9 of them:
  • DG ISPR said it clearly that we retained the escalation ladder. That is the key why Pakistan didn't want to escalate. Pakistan reads the enemy, knew his mentality & the game of trap being played to pull the country into a full blown war. Even if it wasn't a full blown war but a conflict apparently was planned in a manner that would have bleed Pakistan economically more & more when situation was already worst. Once conflict and threat arose; the country would have witnessed investors shying away, economy coming down & a risk to the investment in shape of CPEC and other projects. Modi mindset is not about peace if beaten black & blue because a man with moral will immediately realize his loss i.e. a fighter jet was enough that too with an Indian pilot being captured and returned for peace. It doesn't matter to RSS fascists.

• If shooting down 2 or 9 doesn't matter, why not to shoot them all at first?
  • We argue that shooting them 2 or 9, if didn't make any difference then why not to do so? Here, on this point I think that it would have caused more damage & PR loss to Pakistan as compare to India. In-fact Modi trap would have won diplomatically due to our own short comings in foreign relations. Pakistan would have been painted as an aggressor & offender as well. given the odds against Pakistan, one can calculate that why the leadership choose to remain with plan, SOPs & ROEs. Had it been the full blown war; history speaks volume that how far PAF can go then. I can say for Pakistan that we don't care about what an enemy will do. Military calculates everything with benefits & losses. The plan will be always be like to have an upper hand without a single loss. An escalation could result in civilian loss having a madman like Modi. It wasn't because PAF didn't want to or couldn't do so but these decisions are made in view of everything. They are not some bunch of street gangs looking to live this days, having no home or any worry about the people back at home. A civilian loss into the hands of enemy is in-fact a loss no less than of Military hence, one has to save it from happening by one way or another. Pakistan retaliated and also saved from losses which was result of best planning as such and calculating all the aspects. Emotions aren't strategical tactics but only necessary during action. Plannings are based upon best possible, safe & impacting tactics.

• Pakistan choose to send a message, show strength & capability and retain escalation ladder?
  • We know that Pakistan was retaliating against Indian violation of LoC, Pakistani Airspace & killings our two trees adding an unlucky crow. Pakistan could have erased all the targets in direct hit rather, choose to convey it that Modi may be pulling for something to help him win Election but we mean serious business and it could be them next time. They got the message, though. Then PAF only choose to shoot one fighter that was threatening PAF strike package and the one who violated our airspace. I am saying again that if IAF could have crossed the border with all the squadrons; would have been coming down like rain. Nobody should forget that whole package on that day with fighter sweep, CAP & strike role. The plan was based upon the maximum & possible response of India. We didn't shoot their fighters within Indian Airspace because we didn't want to escalate things neither to be called as aggressors nor to harm our progress. Pakistan knew the plan that in-case going a bit out of rules, will definitely help the so-called world police to come after us. Know the consequences because it is not some cow boy movie. Having a demoralized and confidently shameless rival, is a threat not just for us but the whole region. Less beating, the more mix of pity & thoughts so a fascist & warmonger shouldn't go suicidal. PAF can easily provide every single proof including all the ground targets, the MKI and losses of India but the things is that the message is delivered and not to make a madman like Modi to go suicidal in view of our position & progress of nation which needed time with peace. Any action warranting a long escalation or a full blown war could have cost us more. Not to forget the disrupt Easter Border where India was fully in control of Kabul and could have used anything. Iran sector was already hot in view of US aggression or conflict arising.

• Whether that was a full blown war or not?
  • These retaliations & operations are not full blown war. Both the countries, Pakistan & India knew it well. There are certain levels & steps and happenings before a full blown war otherwise the rest of the world is coming after you and that is a written, settled & understood law. Operation Swift Retort was a limited scale conflict to prove capability, courage, skills & safety of Pakistan. There is a huge difference between a conflict as such & full blown war. Had it been not the case; the whole world would have been fighting till date for one reason or another. I thanks ALMIGHTY when I see that people like Modi are not in power corridors & decision makers of Pakistan. It is indeed a relief that short sighted & reactionary people aren't dealing top of the affairs within Civil or Military establishment. The concerned decision makers are fully aware of everything, best possible steps and the traps being set every other day against Pakistan.

Dear Eagle..please explain a little for idiot like me..

what would be the result in case of escalation ladder if "Wng Cmd.Abhinandon Vertheman" was killed in action inside Azad Kashmir with MiG-21BISON? should that give "Escalation ladder" Away? would that be of grave consequence? would that make India fire Brahmos? and in return we would nuke them as per "Supposed" escalation Ladder.

If what is implied in the scenarios you have posted...why need a fighter sweep if Strike Package did not intrude LOC? no body even 16 x Su-30MKIs at the border would be able to stop SOWs landing in rajouri or narian.

You need fighter sweep to clear the airspace for 100% bombs on target "which was the mission" and if you tell me 4 x aircraft standing CAP was not a threat to be shot at...then what else would be for Fighter sweep.

I have been given impression that pilots were on-leash what to shoot and what not to shoot..do i understand it properly

 

[MastanKhan]

What a pilot WANTS is immaterial. A pilot is a Tactical tool in the hands of those who have to think Strategically. A pilot will do what he is told to do, no more, no less. Thats the procedure.


R u sure ? Do you know Foxbats speed and altitude? It flies higher and faster than Vipers. It would be a miracle to get on its tail


O bhai you can still shoot 9 IAF planes in their own air space just like you could have done on 27 Feb, then why dont you ? There are international RULES OF ENGAGEMENT (ROIs) according to which you can shoot a plane. The most important is that the plane should have intruded in your air space and to prove that the debris of the plane should fall in your own area otherwise it will be a violation of International law. Still if you want to bring down IAF planes the option is available even today but you should war game all the consequences first. Have you ever heard the word ESCALATION LADDER ?

Hi,

It was not a miracle to get on its tail---. Foxbat don't fly at max speed all the time.

 

[The Eagle]

what would be the result in case of escalation ladder if "Wng Cmd.Abhinandon Vertheman" was killed in action inside Azad Kashmir with MiG-21BISON? should that give "Escalation ladder" Away? would that be of grave consequence? would that make India fire Brahmos? and in return we would nuke them as per "Supposed" escalation Ladder.

No. He was already shot so he is alive just because he opted out in time. Whether died, has no consequences on escalation ladder because he was inside Pakistan. Getting shot was enough if India could have pulled Brahmos stunt which they did but deterred with another message so ladder retained again.

If what is implied in the scenarios you have posted...why need a fighter sweep if Strike Package did not intrude LOC? no body even 16 x Su-30MKIs at the border would be able to stop SOWs landing in rajouri or narian.

Fighter Sweep/CAP as planned and always part of plans. Nobody goes without a shield. You have cleared your confusion by mentioning Abhinandan. That was the result of F-16s & Thunders on safeguard of package.

You need fighter sweep to clear the airspace for 100% bombs on target "which was the mission" and if you tell me 4 x aircraft standing CAP was not a threat to be shot at...then what else would be for Fighter sweep.

IAF tried to intercept and wasn't already standing there. Sweep was the part of plan as retaliatory package has to go uninterrupted. Had the IAF already standing there, I cannot assume that they were supposed to not to fire at all. Remember that F-16s didn't cross the border at all. Sweep/CAP were element of safeguard & protection of strike package. Sweep flew along like CAP was in the air. I don't know what is not clear to understand. Or you are thinking that IAF was already flying, intercepted PAF and got shot and then after strike package did the rest and returned. Sweep was sent and was necessary if IAF comes too early to intercept. I don't know what I am missing here. Pardon me.

I have been given impression that pilots were on-leash what to shoot and what not to shoot..do i understand it properly

That was the part of planning not leash. You need to consider ROEs. You can shoot when you are able to, but you have to calculate as how that will be counted, seen & treated. Your target must be in violation. Similarly, intercepting SU-30 was trying to lock like a threat to the strike package hence, shot down. MiG-21 Abhinandan was later coming to score a kill when action was done but crossed the line hence, shot down. Two different kills based upon different scenarios... IMO.

 

[TheTallGuy]

No. He was already shot so he is alive just because he opted out in time. Whether died, has no consequences on escalation ladder because he was inside Pakistan. Getting shot was enough if India could have pulled Brahmos stunt which they did but deterred with another message so ladder retained again.

Fighter Sweep/CAP as planned and always part of plans. Nobody goes without a shield. You have cleared your confusion by mentioning Abhinandan. That was the result of F-16s & Thunders on safeguard of package.

IAF tried to intercept and wasn't already standing there. Sweep was the part of plan as retaliatory package has to go uninterrupted. Had the IAF already standing there, I cannot assume that they were supposed to not to fire at all. Remember that F-16s didn't cross the border at all. Sweep/CAP were element of safeguard & protection of strike package. Sweep flew along like CAP was in the air. I don't know what is not clear to understand. Or you are thinking that IAF was already flying, intercepted PAF and got shot and then after strike package did the rest and returned. Sweep was sent and was necessary if IAF comes too early to intercept. I don't know what I am missing here. Pardon me.

That was the part of planning not leash. You need to consider ROEs. You can shoot when you are able to, but you have to calculate as how that will be counted, seen & treated. Your target must be in violation. Similarly, intercepting SU-30 was trying to lock like a threat to the strike package hence, shot down. MiG-21 Abhinandan was later coming to score a kill when action was done but crossed the line hence, shot down. Two different kills based upon different scenarios... IMO.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

Actually i had listened to Sqn Ldr. Hassan & Wng Cmd. Nauman describing there mission as fighter sweep.

I google it "fighter sweep. An offensive mission by fighter aircraft to seek out and destroy enemy aircraft or targets of opportunity in an allotted area of operations."

Then I googled "BARCAP"
refers to fighter aircraft placed between a friendly strike force and an area of expected airborne threat, also known as a "MiG screen".

Then I Googled "CAP"
A combat air patrol is an aircraft patrol provided over an objective area, over the force protected, over the critical area of a combat zone, or over an air defense area, for the purpose of intercepting and destroying hostile aircraft before they reach their target.

I hope you understand my predicament..

 

[StormBreaker]

I will try to pen my opinion based upon possible thought process in regard to 9 locked IAF jets.

• IAF violated Pakistan Airspace on 26th but wasn't shot?
  • Almost every sane mind argues and most knew as well that Modi pulled a political show after Pulwama. Pulwama was done by a Kashmiri obtaining all the everything for attack from within Indian Occupied Kashmir. I am sure and pattern tells as well that R&AW deliberately let him to have all arrangements & strike, in view of long term gains to help Modi win elections which proved by Modi's reaction. Modi immediately blamed Pakistan and pulled a stunt with the help of Military & Indian Intelligence. IAF plan was to violate the airspace & shoot weapons but cleverly done so within the parameters of ROEs so not to get shot within Pakistan hence, dropped their payload far from target and totally opposed to the firing rules & parameters. IAF knew very well that how much time it has to turn back and save their lives. PAF didn't take a shot under the same ROEs but that couldn't be left without response.

• Beating the IAF so will not look back; scenario:
  • Does that made any sense despite shooting down couple of their jets? They in return came up with awarding Abhinandan with Veer Chakra and then went on to award rest of the fleet with Dodgers designation and now, just heard that the lady who was supposed to save Abhinandan through RT is being awarded for yet another medal. So, whether you shoot them all or one; doesn't matter to an enemy like Modi that has no self respect.

• Shooting down all the fleet so Modi wouldn't re-commit:
  • Can anyone believe that Modi will sit down? an extremist like him will never stop unless total wipe-out as such mentality has no intellect to read about after math but keeps insisting upon bloodshed even it has already costed him fairly. Had it been a self respecting & dignified rival; would have tone down immediately and accepted the white wash even if it was a single jet on that day.

• The consequences of shooting down 9 of them:
  • DG ISPR said it clearly that we retained the escalation ladder. That is the key why Pakistan didn't want to escalate. Pakistan reads the enemy, knew his mentality & the game of trap being played to pull the country into a full blown war. Even if it wasn't a full blown war but a conflict apparently was planned in a manner that would have bleed Pakistan economically more & more when situation was already worst. Once conflict and threat arose; the country would have witnessed investors shying away, economy coming down & a risk to the investment in shape of CPEC and other projects. Modi mindset is not about peace if beaten black & blue because a man with moral will immediately realize his loss i.e. a fighter jet was enough that too with an Indian pilot being captured and returned for peace. It doesn't matter to RSS fascists.

• If shooting down 2 or 9 doesn't matter, why not to shoot them all at first?
  • We argue that shooting them 2 or 9, if didn't make any difference then why not to do so? Here, on this point I think that it would have caused more damage & PR loss to Pakistan as compare to India. In-fact Modi trap would have won diplomatically due to our own short comings in foreign relations. Pakistan would have been painted as an aggressor & offender as well. given the odds against Pakistan, one can calculate that why the leadership choose to remain with plan, SOPs & ROEs. Had it been the full blown war; history speaks volume that how far PAF can go then. I can say for Pakistan that we don't care about what an enemy will do. Military calculates everything with benefits & losses. The plan will be always be like to have an upper hand without a single loss. An escalation could result in civilian loss having a madman like Modi. It wasn't because PAF didn't want to or couldn't do so but these decisions are made in view of everything. They are not some bunch of street gangs looking to live this days, having no home or any worry about the people back at home. A civilian loss into the hands of enemy is in-fact a loss no less than of Military hence, one has to save it from happening by one way or another. Pakistan retaliated and also saved from losses which was result of best planning as such and calculating all the aspects. Emotions aren't strategical tactics but only necessary during action. Plannings are based upon best possible, safe & impacting tactics.

• Pakistan choose to send a message, show strength & capability and retain escalation ladder?
  • We know that Pakistan was retaliating against Indian violation of LoC, Pakistani Airspace & killings our two trees adding an unlucky crow. Pakistan could have erased all the targets in direct hit rather, choose to convey it that Modi may be pulling for something to help him win Election but we mean serious business and it could be them next time. They got the message, though. Then PAF only choose to shoot one fighter that was threatening PAF strike package and the one who violated our airspace. I am saying again that if IAF could have crossed the border with all the squadrons; would have been coming down like rain. Nobody should forget that whole package on that day with fighter sweep, CAP & strike role. The plan was based upon the maximum & possible response of India. We didn't shoot their fighters within Indian Airspace because we didn't want to escalate things neither to be called as aggressors nor to harm our progress. Pakistan knew the plan that in-case going a bit out of rules, will definitely help the so-called world police to come after us. Know the consequences because it is not some cow boy movie. Having a demoralized and confidently shameless rival, is a threat not just for us but the whole region. Less beating, the more mix of pity & thoughts so a fascist & warmonger shouldn't go suicidal. PAF can easily provide every single proof including all the ground targets, the MKI and losses of India but the things is that the message is delivered and not to make a madman like Modi to go suicidal in view of our position & progress of nation which needed time with peace. Any action warranting a long escalation or a full blown war could have cost us more. Not to forget the disrupt Easter Border where India was fully in control of Kabul and could have used anything. Iran sector was already hot in view of US aggression or conflict arising.

• Whether that was a full blown war or not?
  • These retaliations & operations are not full blown war. Both the countries, Pakistan & India knew it well. There are certain levels & steps and happenings before a full blown war otherwise the rest of the world is coming after you and that is a written, settled & understood law. Operation Swift Retort was a limited scale conflict to prove capability, courage, skills & safety of Pakistan. There is a huge difference between a conflict as such & full blown war. Had it been not the case; the whole world would have been fighting till date for one reason or another. I thanks ALMIGHTY when I see that people like Modi are not in power corridors & decision makers of Pakistan. It is indeed a relief that short sighted & reactionary people aren't dealing top of the affairs within Civil or Military establishment. The concerned decision makers are fully aware of everything, best possible steps and the traps being set every other day against Pakistan.

This post needs to be featured, a separate ‘locked’ thread, this is what I as well believed since the start, in the first 2-3 weeks, this was the conclusion for most sane minds.
@Irfan Baloch @Dubious @waz @Dazzler @PakSword , +ve for this post is a must since it claims the most sane explanation of the scenario... We need good posts to be somehow featured on too of every page with a box of “featured post”, similar to zameen forums. @WebMaster

I will try to pen my opinion based upon possible thought process in regard to 9 locked IAF jets.

• IAF violated Pakistan Airspace on 26th but wasn't shot?
  • Almost every sane mind argues and most knew as well that Modi pulled a political show after Pulwama. Pulwama was done by a Kashmiri obtaining all the everything for attack from within Indian Occupied Kashmir. I am sure and pattern tells as well that R&AW deliberately let him to have all arrangements & strike, in view of long term gains to help Modi win elections which proved by Modi's reaction. Modi immediately blamed Pakistan and pulled a stunt with the help of Military & Indian Intelligence. IAF plan was to violate the airspace & shoot weapons but cleverly done so within the parameters of ROEs so not to get shot within Pakistan hence, dropped their payload far from target and totally opposed to the firing rules & parameters. IAF knew very well that how much time it has to turn back and save their lives. PAF didn't take a shot under the same ROEs but that couldn't be left without response.

• Beating the IAF so will not look back; scenario:
  • Does that made any sense despite shooting down couple of their jets? They in return came up with awarding Abhinandan with Veer Chakra and then went on to award rest of the fleet with Dodgers designation and now, just heard that the lady who was supposed to save Abhinandan through RT is being awarded for yet another medal. So, whether you shoot them all or one; doesn't matter to an enemy like Modi that has no self respect.

• Shooting down all the fleet so Modi wouldn't re-commit:
  • Can anyone believe that Modi will sit down? an extremist like him will never stop unless total wipe-out as such mentality has no intellect to read about after math but keeps insisting upon bloodshed even it has already costed him fairly. Had it been a self respecting & dignified rival; would have tone down immediately and accepted the white wash even if it was a single jet on that day.

• The consequences of shooting down 9 of them:
  • DG ISPR said it clearly that we retained the escalation ladder. That is the key why Pakistan didn't want to escalate. Pakistan reads the enemy, knew his mentality & the game of trap being played to pull the country into a full blown war. Even if it wasn't a full blown war but a conflict apparently was planned in a manner that would have bleed Pakistan economically more & more when situation was already worst. Once conflict and threat arose; the country would have witnessed investors shying away, economy coming down & a risk to the investment in shape of CPEC and other projects. Modi mindset is not about peace if beaten black & blue because a man with moral will immediately realize his loss i.e. a fighter jet was enough that too with an Indian pilot being captured and returned for peace. It doesn't matter to RSS fascists.

• If shooting down 2 or 9 doesn't matter, why not to shoot them all at first?
  • We argue that shooting them 2 or 9, if didn't make any difference then why not to do so? Here, on this point I think that it would have caused more damage & PR loss to Pakistan as compare to India. In-fact Modi trap would have won diplomatically due to our own short comings in foreign relations. Pakistan would have been painted as an aggressor & offender as well. given the odds against Pakistan, one can calculate that why the leadership choose to remain with plan, SOPs & ROEs. Had it been the full blown war; history speaks volume that how far PAF can go then. I can say for Pakistan that we don't care about what an enemy will do. Military calculates everything with benefits & losses. The plan will be always be like to have an upper hand without a single loss. An escalation could result in civilian loss having a madman like Modi. It wasn't because PAF didn't want to or couldn't do so but these decisions are made in view of everything. They are not some bunch of street gangs looking to live this days, having no home or any worry about the people back at home. A civilian loss into the hands of enemy is in-fact a loss no less than of Military hence, one has to save it from happening by one way or another. Pakistan retaliated and also saved from losses which was result of best planning as such and calculating all the aspects. Emotions aren't strategical tactics but only necessary during action. Plannings are based upon best possible, safe & impacting tactics.

• Pakistan choose to send a message, show strength & capability and retain escalation ladder?
  • We know that Pakistan was retaliating against Indian violation of LoC, Pakistani Airspace & killings our two trees adding an unlucky crow. Pakistan could have erased all the targets in direct hit rather, choose to convey it that Modi may be pulling for something to help him win Election but we mean serious business and it could be them next time. They got the message, though. Then PAF only choose to shoot one fighter that was threatening PAF strike package and the one who violated our airspace. I am saying again that if IAF could have crossed the border with all the squadrons; would have been coming down like rain. Nobody should forget that whole package on that day with fighter sweep, CAP & strike role. The plan was based upon the maximum & possible response of India. We didn't shoot their fighters within Indian Airspace because we didn't want to escalate things neither to be called as aggressors nor to harm our progress. Pakistan knew the plan that in-case going a bit out of rules, will definitely help the so-called world police to come after us. Know the consequences because it is not some cow boy movie. Having a demoralized and confidently shameless rival, is a threat not just for us but the whole region. Less beating, the more mix of pity & thoughts so a fascist & warmonger shouldn't go suicidal. PAF can easily provide every single proof including all the ground targets, the MKI and losses of India but the things is that the message is delivered and not to make a madman like Modi to go suicidal in view of our position & progress of nation which needed time with peace. Any action warranting a long escalation or a full blown war could have cost us more. Not to forget the disrupt Easter Border where India was fully in control of Kabul and could have used anything. Iran sector was already hot in view of US aggression or conflict arising.

• Whether that was a full blown war or not?
  • These retaliations & operations are not full blown war. Both the countries, Pakistan & India knew it well. There are certain levels & steps and happenings before a full blown war otherwise the rest of the world is coming after you and that is a written, settled & understood law. Operation Swift Retort was a limited scale conflict to prove capability, courage, skills & safety of Pakistan. There is a huge difference between a conflict as such & full blown war. Had it been not the case; the whole world would have been fighting till date for one reason or another. I thanks ALMIGHTY when I see that people like Modi are not in power corridors & decision makers of Pakistan. It is indeed a relief that short sighted & reactionary people aren't dealing top of the affairs within Civil or Military establishment. The concerned decision makers are fully aware of everything, best possible steps and the traps being set every other day against Pakistan.

Just a sentence

“Fascist, Bloodshed loving Modi, never cared about the regions, his own people, loyal to his retarded extremist ideology, can go to severe extents to show Pakistan down even if it means Nuclear winter for the globe”

would be enough

 

[Raider 21]

What a pilot WANTS is immaterial. A pilot is a Tactical tool in the hands of those who have to think Strategically. A pilot will do what he is told to do, no more, no less. Thats the procedure.


R u sure ? Do you know Foxbats speed and altitude? It flies higher and faster than Vipers. It would be a miracle to get on its tail


O bhai you can still shoot 9 IAF planes in their own air space just like you could have done on 27 Feb, then why dont you ? There are international RULES OF ENGAGEMENT (ROIs) according to which you can shoot a plane. The most important is that the plane should have intruded in your air space and to prove that the debris of the plane should fall in your own area otherwise it will be a violation of International law. Still if you want to bring down IAF planes the option is available even today but you should war game all the consequences first. Have you ever heard the word ESCALATION LADDER ?

Well the Viper was touching his ceiling, yet still sitting undetected under him. I'm aware that it CAN fly higher and faster, and it did that after its RWR kicked in and it ran away.

 

[SQ8]

Thanks for the info.

Defence forums on both sides of the border have become echo chambers for each one's narratives. It is impossible to make out the truth except for people who actually know what happened. This is a sad state of affairs.

The sudden purchase of more modern missiles by the IAF suggests that something less than desirable had happened. From Pakistan's side the reduced rhetoric of nuke attacks on India, even in this forum, also suggests that Pakistan's thought process has altered.

IAF might have come up against a well executed pre-determined plan with numbers favouring PAF.

For me an important takeaway from 26-27 Feb 2019 was that the Indian position of having a conflict, such that Pakistan cannot speak of nukes, is in some sense established. This means that Pakistan will need to restrategize and focus more on conventional deterrence. The negative thing is that we have entered a period of uncertainty about war and about what could be the triggers for a limited conflict.

Disregarded personal sources and per public sources referenced through former service members:

- The loss of confidence in the IAF from the BJP had them resort to Brahmos strikes. This was a poor calculation on their part since the nature of our standard doctrines and mutual mistrust is such that a ssm launch is usually suspended to be non-conventional.

So your assertion isn’t entirely accurate that nukes were not on the table because initially for both India and Pakistan this was “aggressive diplomacy” rather than warfare. Once the Brahmos deployment was alerted to us by our common “friends”(when will the subcontinent truly learn who its true enemies are?) we were deploying our ssm systems with similar time of flights.

So if anything, this new doctrine by India has worsened the nuclear gambit by making it more uncertain.

If you go through my history for the past 15 years Ive mostly given credit to the Indian leadership as being more mature, wily and calculated than Pakistan - with this government however, the balance on that equation has shifted to Pakistan.
Not because this government is right wing or more belligerent; but because it is not smart enough to apply its intentions without taking down the entire subcontinent with it.

 

[diligence]

NO such evidence provided.

How do you know that the evidence was not provided? Does all PAF communications with friendly air forces are channelized through yourself?

Seriously you need to stop emitting bnllsh!t from your mouth all the time. I have seen many nasty Indian liars but you are the champion of all those. Now some brainless idiot can think of this as a complement.

 

[MastanKhan]

This post needs to be featured, a separate ‘locked’ thread, this is what I as well believed since the start, in the first 2-3 weeks, this was the conclusion for most sane minds.
@Irfan Baloch @Dubious @waz @Dazzler @PakSword , +ve for this post is a must since it claims the most sane explanation of the scenario... We need good posts to be somehow featured on too of every page with a box of “featured post”, similar to zameen forums. @WebMaster


Just a sentence

“Fascist, Bloodshed loving Modi, never cared about the regions, his own people, loyal to his retarded extremist ideology, can go to severe extents to show Pakistan down even if it means Nuclear winter for the globe”

would be enough

Hi,

Totally wrong. Pulwama was nothing political.

You kids need to grow up and start thinking like the enemy and start looking thru the eyes of the enemy.

Pulwama, 26th feb was all a setup and pre cursor to annexation of Kashmir.

they were the final acts by the enemy to judge the reaction of the adversary ie pakistan.

 

[diligence]

Thanks for the info.
The sudden purchase of more modern missiles by the IAF suggests that something less than desirable had happened. From Pakistan's side the reduced rhetoric of nuke attacks on India, even in this forum, also suggests that Pakistan's thought process has altered.

Like in world as a whole, you'll see many different types of people in Pakistan too. Some childish or knee-jerk type people keep repeating nuke threats to India if the latter attacks Pakistan. But in the circles that really matter things seem totally different. You don't see much nuclear rhetoric from them. Rather, whenever they say anything, they offer a professional, realistic, and balanced analysis of the prevailing situation. While they try their best to deal with the worst possible situation (meaning a devastating exchange of nukes between the two countries), they seriously strive for giving a real bloody nose to the enemy even in the conventional sphere. And 27/2 has proved that.

If any thing, Pak strike on Indian formations on 27/2 proves that Pak is more than confident to give a devastating blow if need arises. Pak dominated the skies on that day, spared the life of Indian military high command, and waited for Indian 'retaliation' that never came out. Rather Modi resorted to threatening missile attack on Pak cities and was then forced to go and hide in his hole when told of a harsh response from Pakistan. Subsequently Indians were threatening to abandon their no-first-use nuke policy (which is a hoax to us all Pakistanis in any case). Finally Indians resorted to show their muscle at the navel front. That too brought a deep disgrace too Indians when one of their submarines was forced to float up (analogous to hands up in land battles) close to Pak territorial waters. Again the sub was spared by Pakistanis. That shows a solid confidence and their trust in their conventional abilities. I am sure if Indians had a similar opportunity (i.e. least likely in any case), Indians would have either destroyed or forced the sub to their naval base.

I am really sure that Indians would resort to nuclear blackmail next time after Modi's stupidity forces him to launch another 'sergical strike' against Pakistan and then hits Modi ash real hard.

 

[StormBreaker]

Hi,

Totally wrong. Pulwama was nothing political.

You kids need to grow up and start thinking like the enemy and start looking thru the eyes of the enemy.

Pulwama, 26th feb was all a setup and pre cursor to annexation of Kashmir.

they were the final acts by the enemy to judge the reaction of the adversary ie pakistan.

With all due respect Sir,
I have to disagree to some extent, Politics is very complex, you have a lifetime experience while i have 1/3rd of yours, but it is not as simple as “Look from the eyes of Enemy”, Many factors come into play even when you look from the “eye” of the enemy, as you are not equal to your enemy in international support, Military power and economy.

Pakistan has always put forward the “Mutual Assured Peace” while the Enemy is hell bent upon MAD, it knows that the result will be MAD but it seems that RSS Hindutva ideology is far above MAD...

Hi,

Totally wrong. Pulwama was nothing political.

You kids need to grow up and start thinking like the enemy and start looking thru the eyes of the enemy.

Pulwama, 26th feb was all a setup and pre cursor to annexation of Kashmir.

they were the final acts by the enemy to judge the reaction of the adversary ie pakistan.

However, what you are claiming about the “precursor” thing, no one can deny possibilities !!!
Doors of possibilities are always open, but if what you believe is the case then we have an enemy, Extremely Cunning, and definitely backed by Third Parties with the planning and setup of such events...

BUT, if that is not the case, we can take it that Pakistan actually pushed India to extreme butthurt levels that they had to resort to such Annexation tactic. India knows that the world won’t point out this issue, they don’t even care if India annexes it, India is using this to their advantage, Pak is definitely left with NO table option for Kashmir except for a Full Scale Bloody war...

 

[Maarkhoor]

2 SU 30s, 2 Mirage 2000s and 5 Mig 21s

3 Su-30....2 MK 2 and 4 MIG 21

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

3 Su-30....2 MK 2 and 4 MIG 21

 

[MastanKhan]

With all due respect Sir,
I have to disagree to some extent, Politics is very complex, you have a lifetime experience while i have 1/3rd of yours, but it is not as simple as “Look from the eyes of Enemy”, Many factors come into play even when you look from the “eye” of the enemy, as you are not equal to your enemy in international support, Military power and economy.

Pakistan has always put forward the “Mutual Assured Peace” while the Enemy is hell bent upon MAD, it knows that the result will be MAD but it seems that RSS Hindutva ideology is far above MAD...


However, what you are claiming about the “precursor” thing, no one can deny possibilities !!!
Doors of possibilities are always open, but if what you believe is the case then we have an enemy, Extremely Cunning, and definitely backed by Third Parties with the planning and setup of such events...

BUT, if that is not the case, we can take it that Pakistan actually pushed India to extreme butthurt levels that they had to resort to such Annexation tactic. India knows that the world won’t point out this issue, they don’t even care if India annexes it, India is using this to their advantage, Pak is definitely left with NO table option for Kashmir except for a Full Scale Bloody war...

Hi

pakistan gave india what it wanted on a platter—-ie Kashmir—-.

Paf and pakistan fell right into the trap.

 

[StormBreaker]

Hi

pakistan gave india what it wanted on a platter—-ie Kashmir—-.

Paf and pakistan fell right into the trap.

What would you have done if you were a dictator ?